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The Flaw in the flagging system

Competition over in-game resources is inevitable, that much is obvious. If two players want to compete for resources, and they both flag for pvp, the system works fine.

The main problem is the availability of Karma Bombing as counter-play to PKing. Generally speaking, running around taking mob spawns to disrupt you (so you either have to kill them or leave), or once you've flagged red the first time, running into your abilities so that you either end up killing them again or have to stop grinding. This happened all the time in Black Desert, even when there was a 1% penalty to your exp bar on death. Then the devs of that game made the brilliant decision to remove the exp entirely but kept the low karma penalties like gear loss in the game.

This resulted in an even more toxic environment where the meta was to lower your opponents HP and stun them so that mobs would kill them in your place.

Ultimately it would be best if AoC cultivated a combatant culture where death penalties stayed low and people respected the winner enough to leave, but in my experience this is not usually the case in MMOs. There are probably solutions to these problems but it's hard to say without experiencing it first hand. For some examples that have been brought up in BDO: no karma penalty for killing the same person repeatedly within a short duration, respawn points moving further and further away on repeated deaths (eventually, spawning at a city rather than the local node), etc.

It hardly seems fair to punish pking to the degree of gear loss or severe dampening. There are plenty of other PvP scenarios in the game that will surely have no penalty such as under cutting prices, which happen outside of the already penalty-free scenarios of node, guild, castle wars etc.
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    maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 2021
    idk man, the main 2 reasons to kill a green are:
    • you wanna to steal from them - in which case you reap what you sow as far as I'm concerned
    • you want them to move/leave the area - in which case you can now move/leave the area too
    • (you got mad and lost your temper - you failing to control anger is not anyone else's problem)

    Whose Who's been counting these threads? what are we up to now?
    I wish I were deep and tragic
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    VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    In lineage 2 the system worked fine for the most part. Yes, it was not perfect. Aside from Darkfall,UO, and EVEs systems, nothing is perfect. The AOC system is a modified version of the L2 system. I expect it to be fine, for AOC. The karma system is lenient enough to allow non-hardcore players a place in the world.

    Maybe after a few more alphas they will learn it needs some more tweaking, but I expect the flagging system to be fine. I personally would rather have full loot, but I guess that causes too much "Emotional Distress" to work for a MMO that is trying to have a remotely large audience.

    I would say just give it a shot, it is way too soon to tell if a modified version of a proven system is unusable.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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    unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    maouw wrote: »

    Whose been counting these threads? what are we up to now?

    They are endless and uncountable as the grains of salt formed from the tears of people with a poor understanding of the corruption system and it's intent. There is no aoe "karma bombing." It just doesn't work like that. The issue of people using mobs to finish off damaged players is also being looked at in testing and a solution will be presented. (SPECULATION: They will add a timer to the flag state and if the target dies within that period, you will get corruption. The trick is to avoid griefing the other way, and have people suiciding when attacked.) If you have questions about the state of corruption system, or a poor understanding of how much work has been put in over several years now to close such loopholes, I recommend watching one of @Jahlon streams, he does them often and takes live questions. He will set you right, quick.
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Nightly wrote: »
    There are plenty of other PvP scenarios in the game that will surely have no penalty such as under cutting prices
    You aren't the first poster here to refer to marketplace actions as PvP, but it makes me laugh every time still.

    Rather than encouraging people to "respect" the winner of a PvP fight and leave, Intrepid are intending on trying to get people to work together for resources and such, rather than compete.

    Assuming you are grinding/harvesting in an area that will assist your node (which you should be doing during the early game), any other player you come across in that content is also leveling your node. The best thing for you to do in that situation is to work together. Working together should not only mean each of you get more kills faster but it also means your node gets far more experience than it would if you were fighting each other.

    BDO isn't a particularly good game to use as a reference point to try and understand Ashes, or to try and find flaws in it's systems.

    Also, the idea of running in to someone's abilities to force them to attack/kill you isn't a thing in Ashes.
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    SPECULATION: They will add a timer to the flag state and if the target dies within that period, you will get corruption. The trick is to avoid griefing the other way, and have people suiciding when attacked.
    This has long been my assumption for what will eventually happen as well.
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    bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
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    This is exactly what I'm talking about though. If there is so much hate for PKing why bother putting it in the game at all? Just set up a dueling system that mirrors the combatant vs combatant flag that currently exists.

    There is basically no reason to go red in the current system, at most, maybe you do 1-2 kills to try and keep your grinding spot before giving up. Absolutely no reason to go deep red, mechanically. Im sure a very small minority of players will do it for shits and giggles but deep red basically stops your ability to progress.

    Why shouldn't the strongest players use the best grinding spots? Semi hardcore players will still have a place in this game but they shouldn't expect the best position just for showing up. Sure maybe you work together in some situations, but it's likely that top guilds will have full parties grinding the best money and experience spots.

    Anyway my point is, the system has a lot of flaws, karma bombing is toxic, no reason to go red, barely any reason to duel if you dont like to pvp
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    Nightly wrote: »
    This is exactly what I'm talking about though. If there is so much hate for PKing why bother putting it in the game at all?

    Freedom of choice.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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    daveywavey wrote: »
    Nightly wrote: »
    This is exactly what I'm talking about though. If there is so much hate for PKing why bother putting it in the game at all?

    Freedom of choice.

    You have the freedom to drop a cinderblock on your foot, but why would you hurt yourself for no reason? Going red is pointless, it's not a choice.
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    akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited January 2021
    From my limited understanding, there is limited fast travel.

    If this is the case, then the further an individual or group must travel to get to a particular area be that for xp or gathering or other function, then there is the likelihood the time and effort to get there will be valued. Valued by some to ensure the effort is not in vain by pk`ing someone or a group that were not there first or alternatively pk to take over the area.

    The value of the particular area will also come into play, be that a sweet spot for xp gain or drops etc. with similar.

    I can`t see PK`ing being that common as the outline of the consequences appears higher than other games.

    Xp`ing over another`s spot is usually against general manner and not tolerated.. but if your a passive player or weaker than the other, then there is probably little you can do solo but lots you can do if you have a clan.
    Games like this are to be played with other people.

    AoConan & BDO had little penalty to speak of.
    L2 had considerable consequence when dying, 1 death could equal 1-3hrs grinding.. so a pk round was a considerable choice and 4-5 deaths in an afternoon of pvp really hurt! But for clan`s with clan halls, there was instant fast travel, so if you were quick enough there was an instant out if you got your timing right. 0.3% per hour when I left the game.

    Ashes I believe may not have the fast travel to the same exent, so death will hurt, so it is likely to be a bigger decision.






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    Nightly wrote: »
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Nightly wrote: »
    This is exactly what I'm talking about though. If there is so much hate for PKing why bother putting it in the game at all?

    Freedom of choice.

    You have the freedom to drop a cinderblock on your foot, but why would you hurt yourself for no reason? Going red is pointless, it's not a choice.

    Because your mate would be recording it, and you'd put it on the internet for the lols.
    Because you want to get out of work for a few months.
    Because a madman has a gun at your child's head and is telling you to.
    Because you're bored.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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    akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited January 2021
    Because it was easier to go red than respond to the trash talk pm`s
    Because that same player comes and xp`s over you each day knowing you will give up..
    Because that unclanned player is known to tell your enemy clan intel and your location.
    Because that player is named "Karen" or "Kevin"
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    akabear wrote: »
    Because that player is named "Karen" or "Kevin"

    Or "akabear"... >:)
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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    TyrantorTyrantor Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Noaani wrote: »
    SPECULATION: They will add a timer to the flag state and if the target dies within that period, you will get corruption. The trick is to avoid griefing the other way, and have people suiciding when attacked.
    This has long been my assumption for what will eventually happen as well.

    A timer seems like an awful idea. Especially considering there is no toggle so we are technically forced to engage someone to "test" their interest in fighting back in the first place. What you're suggesting adds additional risk to the initiation of the attack by now suggesting the person who gets attacked could suicide on MOBs to cause corruption even if the attacker backed off because this person never fought back.

    The whole flagging system still seems dumb to me without a toggle that would allow players to choose for themselves which flagging state they want to be in without having to manually attack people in order to change it.
    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
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    VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Nightly wrote: »
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Nightly wrote: »
    This is exactly what I'm talking about though. If there is so much hate for PKing why bother putting it in the game at all?

    Freedom of choice.

    You have the freedom to drop a cinderblock on your foot, but why would you hurt yourself for no reason? Going red is pointless, it's not a choice.

    There have been plenty of times in other MMORPGs when I dislike a player so much that I would like to be able to just attack him on sight. I like having that freedom.

    For example, if a player ninja loots or is just a jerk in general, I would love to be able to find him during one of his gathering excursions and kill him and take a good chunk of his hard work. I will deal with the consequences and grind out the corruption.
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    vmangman wrote: »

    For example, if a player ninja loots or is just a jerk in general, I would love to be able to find him during one of his gathering excursions and kill him and take a good chunk of his hard work. I will deal with the consequences and grind out the corruption.

    Someone could spend an hour following you around ninja looting and competing for last hits, what can you do to stop him? Kill him repeatedly, which drops your ability scores rapidly, tags you for bounty hunters, potential loss of items, etc. All for trying to stop someone from griefing you during your grind.

    The system needs to allow for more nuance, or to be more thorough in its prevention of karma bombing so that the penalties to pking make sense. Maybe on repeated deaths you spawn in a random location, further and further away each death. This would apply to all players not just corrupted. This stops spawn camping on either side, and makes karma bombing more difficult.
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    VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Nightly wrote: »
    vmangman wrote: »

    For example, if a player ninja loots or is just a jerk in general, I would love to be able to find him during one of his gathering excursions and kill him and take a good chunk of his hard work. I will deal with the consequences and grind out the corruption.

    Someone could spend an hour following you around ninja looting and competing for last hits, what can you do to stop him? Kill him repeatedly, which drops your ability scores rapidly, tags you for bounty hunters, potential loss of items, etc. All for trying to stop someone from griefing you during your grind.

    The system needs to allow for more nuance, or to be more thorough in its prevention of karma bombing so that the penalties to pking make sense. Maybe on repeated deaths you spawn in a random location, further and further away each death. This would apply to all players not just corrupted. This stops spawn camping on either side, and makes karma bombing more difficult.

    You did not understand my post. Yes, in that case, it might not do too much for you, but if you catch that same player at a time when he is carrying a lot and kill him because he is on your 'enemy' list and take a good chunk of his resources then you've accomplished a lot.

    There might be improvements that need to be made to the system. I'm not denying that. I'm just expressing why the system could still be useful in its current format because you seem to imply that it is currently pointless.
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    AsgerrAsgerr Member
    edited January 2021
    maouw wrote: »
    idk man, the main 2 reasons to kill a green are:
    • you wanna to steal from them - in which case you reap what you sow as far as I'm concerned
    • you want them to move/leave the area - in which case you can now move/leave the area too
    • (you got mad and lost your temper - you failing to control anger is not anyone else's problem)

    Whose Who's been counting these threads? what are we up to now?

    ^This.

    I would also add that if some other player is competing for your resources there a few scenarios:

    1- They either are lower level and thus can't really fight back and they die and go away for a while, giving you time to gather the resources

    2- They are equal level. 3 things can happen:
    - They "karma bomb" you bu not fighting back and die. Thus they go away and you can gather resources
    - They fight back to keep the resources - in which case no harm done to corruption levels
    - They don't fight back, and you decide not to kill them to avoid corruption - in this case find alternative ways to keep them away

    3- Or you can just ask them to go away if they don't to get PK'd (roll for intimadtion. You have advantage if in a group) - if they refuse, they die, and you deal with the inconvenience of corruption while still getting the resources.

    You can't have it all. Remember the philosophy behind this game is Risk vs Reward. If you remove any and all risks then you're just rewarding "toxic" behavior.

    Alternatively if you are in a group, you're just going to gather those resources much faster than the solo low level player. So ignore him and just gather everything from under his nose.

    Edit:
    If we can declare duels, it would be very sportsmanship like to just talk it out, if no one budges, duke it out, winner leaves for a bit while the other one grinds the area.
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    TyrantorTyrantor Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I think the over all issue with this thread and concept is most contested EXP/Mob fights will not be solo player vs solo player. In all likelihood a solo player farming an exp/mob camp will likely not fight back against greater odds in hope that the fear of corruption will make the attacking party stop killing them. With that defensive logic - having a timer or further penalty from the MOB then killing the person is ridiculous.

    Furthermore a group of players would likely not need to kill the other to drive them from the area if they can simply just out damage the person they will most likely get the looting rights and benefits from the mob kills anyway.

    This is an MMO discussing any topics from a solo vs solo view point seems mute from the go. If the area is worth contesting then the solo player may return with friends to contest it with a group of players, which may trigger the flagging system as intended or just flat out cause corruption for whom ever initiates the fight with any sort of coordination/focus fire if the latter holds true then it's my opinion the system is flat broken without a toggle..
    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
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    akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited January 2021
    I see it coming down to how onerous it is to remove the karma from going red and may also depend on just how many pk`s you had to your tally at the time.

    In BDO, I have arrived at a space to scout out if it is free or not and been pk`d before I knew anyone was there. I have been Pk`d for zero reason. Their system has very low consequences.

    In L2, who`s model it appears Ashes is following, players generally left each other alone while xp`ing. Some players even went so far as to drop their clan membership to avoid wars and have some peaceful xp time whilst still considered a clan member, just not tagged.

    Stating the obvious, early AoC will be very different to the later game. I think earlier, players that are peaceful to aggressive will vie to find their position in the world so there will be a distinct lack of sense both ways.

    But as players decide their bias and create both their position and reputation in the world be that as individuals or by clan or node then things will become more predictable.

    There were "asses" that had reputations that were pk`d on site.
    There were clans that wanted to war for various reasons without a clan war declaration that pk`d on site.
    There was pk`ing to provoke a war and pk`ing to end one.

    Solo players were largely left alone and clans that were pve only were largely left to their own devices.

    But never really an issue once a feel for the game was established
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    EloElo Member
    Just my opinion as someone with very little pvp experience: I like the concept of karma. I know that if someone kills me red vs green, I will immediately run from the respawn, wait for him to be at reduced hp, then exact righteous vengeance as green vs red. I guess that's what karma bombing must mean.

    I would even prefer the karma system to go further. Let's say someone kills me red vs green. Then when I see him a month later and attack green vs green, then I would like if we both automatically become purple (forced purple on him), so if I killed him then no corruption would be given to me for righting the previous wrong. At that point we would be even, so the next fight would cause corruption. It's just a thought and opinion, I guess it may over-complicate the system. I just worry that under the current system, when I see him a month later and get righteous vengeance. If I turn red, the people standing around will assume I am the bad guy.

    Again, I am pve raider. Consider me the pvp novice who stepped into the pvp adult discussion. :)
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    maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    akabear wrote: »
    ...

    Stating the obvious, early AoC will be very different to the later game. I think earlier, players that are peaceful to aggressive will vie to find their position in the world so there will be a distinct lack of sense both ways.

    But as players decide their bias and create both their position and reputation in the world be that as individuals or by clan or node then things will become more predictable.

    ...

    But never really an issue once a feel for the game was established

    How was the flagging system introduced to new players in L2?

    It seems like a lot of people are alarmed when they first hear of it - would it be more helpful to introduce it to new players after they're a bit more accustomed to the world?
    I wish I were deep and tragic
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    maouw wrote: »
    akabear wrote: »
    ...

    Stating the obvious, early AoC will be very different to the later game. I think earlier, players that are peaceful to aggressive will vie to find their position in the world so there will be a distinct lack of sense both ways.

    But as players decide their bias and create both their position and reputation in the world be that as individuals or by clan or node then things will become more predictable.

    ...

    But never really an issue once a feel for the game was established

    How was the flagging system introduced to new players in L2?

    It seems like a lot of people are alarmed when they first hear of it - would it be more helpful to introduce it to new players after they're a bit more accustomed to the world?

    @maouw that's kinda understandable though.
    Most of the people, that haven't experience it or a similar system themselves come from games like WoW, where its actively encouraged to grief the other faction, where no repurcussions for doing so exist or alternatively they don't/barely have any experience at all, as they have primarily played on pve servers in the past.

    People are afraid of things they don't know. There isn't anything more natural than that. Being open minded and trying new things was actively discouraged for an overwhelming part of human evolution. Not liking things they haven't experienced and staying in the safe confines of what we know (the lizard brain) is exactly what kept us alive for so long.
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    akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited January 2021
    Age of Conan at beta was just an open season pk madness. Never played past that time.

    L2`s karma system changed over various updates. At beta the system was a brutal introduction to the mmorpgs. After playing a little of Ultima Online, and Osheron`s Call, I was not so prepared for what was to come.

    At beta there was potential for some or full drop of ALL your gear upon death, pk or mob.
    Later this was reduced to only drop on pk death (or Pvp, I cannot remember now)

    As an early Pve`er only at the beginning of beta, and early game, I recall pleading for gear to be returned after being pk`d as it was a game killer. To lose your gear and not have the means to replace it with the likelihood or having to re-roll, I pleaded hard.

    But later it was softened considerably, and players that would engage in pvp / pk`ing would reduce the valuable gear in their inventory for worthless to further reduce the chance of loss of important gear

    Later playing with a clan that did seem to cross paths with other clans, there were wars. I at first tried to stay out of it, but slowly had to and then slowly found that it was actually fun and later sport! Never good at it and the xp loss was really hard, but I thoroughly enjoyed playing a couple of rounds during a lunch break with an enemy clan similar to "marco polo"! Then spent the evenings making up the xp loss for the day!

    Working from home, I had 2pcs`s with one pc open with L2 running and a random scout just sitting there..
    I had my main fully buffed ready to go, logged off.
    When an enemy clan that we were at war with passed by my toon, I would drop work (if able) and then log on my buffed main toon and chase them down.
    Kept the enemy on their toes, like they did our side!

    Fast travel changed everything, I could quietly xp in xp mode and if someone came up to kill me unexpectedly, and I had mobs on me, then it was just a matter of clicking teleport to clan hall.. just had to be quick.

    Prior to that, there was way less pvp and pk`ing as the risk of staying out in the open red was too high, which is where Ashes will sit, I believe.
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited January 2021
    Tyrantor wrote: »

    A timer seems like an awful idea. Especially considering there is no toggle so we are technically forced to engage someone to "test" their interest in fighting back in the first place.

    As far as I can tell, this is all by design.

    Only attack a player if the reason you are attacking them is good enough for you to take on corruption. If you are not willing to take on corruption, don't attack the player.

    If you want PvP in general, find it in a manner that isn't subject to corruption.

    It's all very simple, and very obvious.
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    AntVictusAntVictus Member, Alpha One
    maouw wrote: »
    idk man, the main 2 reasons to kill a green are:
    • you wanna to steal from them - in which case you reap what you sow as far as I'm concerned
    • you want them to move/leave the area - in which case you can now move/leave the area too
    • (you got mad and lost your temper - you failing to control anger is not anyone else's problem)

    Whose Who's been counting these threads? what are we up to now?

    35 ish
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    AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited January 2021
    Nightly wrote: »
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Nightly wrote: »
    This is exactly what I'm talking about though. If there is so much hate for PKing why bother putting it in the game at all?

    Freedom of choice.

    You have the freedom to drop a cinderblock on your foot, but why would you hurt yourself for no reason? Going red is pointless, it's not a choice.

    I think you’re not understanding part of the system. Going red will have penalties but so will dying as green. If you attack a green player they have many reasons to fight back and few reasons not to.

    If you are attacked while green and die as green you lose double the amount of resources and take on twice the debt than if you fight back, go purple, and then die. Most players are going to opt to fight back because if they win, awesome, they can loot the attacker. If they lose, at least they aren’t dropping as much stuff.

    That also means, by the way, that attacking a green player gives you more resources to loot. So there is that attraction. Is it worth the risk? Overall it won’t be because Intrepid doesn’t want rampant PKing, but there will still be the temptation to do it now and then.

    You say going red is pointless, like nobody will ever do it. I don’t think you’ve been around enough to see all the people talking about how much they look forward to it, risk and all. It’ll be rare but it will happen.

    Dropping a cinder block on your foot is certainly stupid and counterproductive, but if people didn’t do stupid things on purpose just for fun or to test themselves or to try to impress people we’d never have the show Jackass.
     
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Atama wrote: »
    Dropping a cinder block on your foot is certainly stupid and counterproductive, but if people didn’t do stupid things on purpose just for fun or to test themselves or to try to impress people we’d never have the show Jackass.
    Some woudl argue the world would be a better place if this were true.

    That said, if someone in game pisses me off, whether by their actions around me or by their anoyance in chat, I'll take them out if I see them. To me, the corruption is worth it for that, even moreso than material game is worth it.

    Same if I see a player from a guild that has proven itself to be a rival.

    I'm also very likely to kill any solo player I see on a pack animal, as why wouldn't I?

    There are many, many reasons to kill people in Ashe, even before you get in to the "because it's fun" arguments. Corruption isn't going to stop most of these potential kills, but it will stop players going on rampages, which is good since no one wants to play with murder-hobos.
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    akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    It will be interesting to see how the risk will be carried by PvE`er. With the threat to lose half of the resources, those risk adverse in high conflict areas may end up travelling back and forth to town a lot and it may just end up more profitable to become corrupted.

    Those gathering very far away from the nearest town or trying to run resources themselves between nodes even more so. (if possible)

    But I suspect the feeling will be like that in New World, where you fill your inventory just border of max where your run speed is impacted and run a beeline between cities, avoiding all around through fear of being dropped.
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    VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    akabear wrote: »
    But I suspect the feeling will be like that in New World, where you fill your inventory just border of max where your run speed is impacted and run a beeline between cities, avoiding all around through fear of being dropped.

    There is no such feeling in New World. If you're a PvE'er in New World, you just turn off PvP and never have to worry about anything. Not to mention that even if you turn on PvP, you still wouldn't be at risk of losing anything upon death.
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