The Flaw in the flagging system

Competition over in-game resources is inevitable, that much is obvious. If two players want to compete for resources, and they both flag for pvp, the system works fine.

The main problem is the availability of Karma Bombing as counter-play to PKing. Generally speaking, running around taking mob spawns to disrupt you (so you either have to kill them or leave), or once you've flagged red the first time, running into your abilities so that you either end up killing them again or have to stop grinding. This happened all the time in Black Desert, even when there was a 1% penalty to your exp bar on death. Then the devs of that game made the brilliant decision to remove the exp entirely but kept the low karma penalties like gear loss in the game.

This resulted in an even more toxic environment where the meta was to lower your opponents HP and stun them so that mobs would kill them in your place.

Ultimately it would be best if AoC cultivated a combatant culture where death penalties stayed low and people respected the winner enough to leave, but in my experience this is not usually the case in MMOs. There are probably solutions to these problems but it's hard to say without experiencing it first hand. For some examples that have been brought up in BDO: no karma penalty for killing the same person repeatedly within a short duration, respawn points moving further and further away on repeated deaths (eventually, spawning at a city rather than the local node), etc.

It hardly seems fair to punish pking to the degree of gear loss or severe dampening. There are plenty of other PvP scenarios in the game that will surely have no penalty such as under cutting prices, which happen outside of the already penalty-free scenarios of node, guild, castle wars etc.

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Comments

akabear

The PvP system is pretty much a direct copy of the Lineage 2 system,.
Details that are yet to be known

How long one stays in chaotic state for
How much karma first kill gives
How much karma successive kills give
Level of propensity to drop gear and if that scales
How long to burn off karma
How long / difficult the quest will be to reduce your pk count
How visible on the maps a chaotic character will be (not in L2)

Perhaps rather than trying to picture from the previous explanations and the wki, someone put this video together some time ago which pretty much sums up the proposed system

https://youtube.com/watch?v=DeKhbtog_pI

akabear

There there is healing mobs or raid box so a pve`er or group runs out of steam and dies to the mob or boss and the combatant never have to touch them directly!

There is a mechanic I hope they proclude.

FuryBladeborne

If someone wants to take the increasing death penalty to karma bomb someone, they can just go ahead and do that

However, I do like the idea of not adding corruption for killing the same player in a short time of perhaps 5-10 minutes. It would probably be a good idea to point this out once testing for corruption starts. Which should be Alpha 2.

Warth

FuryBladeborne wrote: »

If someone wants to take the increasing death penalty to karma bomb someone, they can just go ahead and do that

However, I do like the idea of not adding corruption for killing the same player in a short time of perhaps 5-10 minutes. It would probably be a good idea to point this out once testing for corruption starts. Which should be Alpha 2.

If you can repeaditely kill the same player within 5-10 minutes, then there far too many respawn points available.The valuable hunting grounds should be far away from those respawn points, otherwise the game just turns into a wipefest.

Also @Noaani , i do not like the feature, that you can let someone die to a PvE Mob after hurting them in order to avoid corruption. In L2, this opened up a lot of shenanigans along the lines of repeaditely hitting the enemy to low hp without every actually killing them, which was more cancerous than a simple gank to kill could ever be.

While i do think that there should be something akin to a timer, I also think that there should be a minimum amount of damage the player should have to deal for the timer to start. So either deal at least (let's just say as an example 10-30% of the players hp and they die to a monster) or the last hit will reward you corruption. Maybe even scale the duration of the timer with the amount of damage the player has received. Aka deal 80% of the enemy hp and the timer is 30 seconds, deal 20% of the enemy hp and the timer is 10 seconds).

I think something akin to this would leave the least abusability on both ends and punishes people more the higher their participation in the death of non-combatant actually was.

Tyrantor

Noaani wrote: »

Straight up no.

A toggle is only of use for people looking for PvP for the sake of PvP, which is not the idea of hte corruption system.

Anyone out playing the game as the game is intended (PvP'ing over resources, spots, because you dislike a guild or person, etc) is in the exact same position, with or without a toggle.

The whole suicide by mob thing is very much an edge case of an edge case if this timer were bought in. It is in no way the normal way the game would be played. If the timer were in the game, people simply wouldn't attack another player unless they were willing to take on corruption, so if the person doesn't fight back, the attacker would simply carry on killing them.

Suicide timer = fringe case used primarily by solo players wanting to force corruption on someone who attacked them.

Toggle = Used in most group vs group pvp scenarios to avoid corruption and non-combatant death penalties by people participating in pvp (not just looking for).

The difference is your fringe solution for solo players versus a toggle that would give guilds, groups and solo players the option to play the game within the corruption system as they choose without forcing play on other people.

The irony of the entire corruption system as it stands is that it forces the pvpers that will seek out combat with risk to fight more players who may be uninterested in pvp entirely as they would be outside of the objective based pvp more frequently. So the system will create a drag on two portions of the game population by default wearing them both down over time and ultimately (in my opinion) having a negative impact on the player retention.

With the objective play having no death penalties it seems more pressing to add a toggle than ever.

But hey add the timer so people can be incentivized to kill their own characters that's cool too.

Rhuric

Noaani wrote: »

Tyrantor wrote: »

Lol I'm not sure if anyone else thinks this sounds dumb.

"You can prevent the player from suiciding by doing some PvE"

If someone chooses to kill their own character that's their own stupid decision.

Real player agency would involve a toggle allowing us to mark our characters combatant not some suicide/PvE stopgap.

Straight up no.

A toggle is only of use for people looking for PvP for the sake of PvP, which is not the idea of hte corruption system.

Anyone out playing the game as the game is intended (PvP'ing over resources, spots, because you dislike a guild or person, etc) is in the exact same position, with or without a toggle.

The whole suicide by mob thing is very much an edge case of an edge case if this timer were bought in. It is in no way the normal way the game would be played. If the timer were in the game, people simply wouldn't attack another player unless they were willing to take on corruption, so if the person doesn't fight back, the attacker would simply carry on killing them.

I've had a dedicated PvPer nerd rage because I landed an ultimate with an uncurable lethal poison on him. He ran to the nearest NPC guards and attacked them so I wouldn't get the credit for the kill before the poison killed him.

The timer idea is great instead of a last hit marks the corrupted. Even if someone runs off to protect their loot the aggressors would still be red.

Warth

Rhuric wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Tyrantor wrote: »

Lol I'm not sure if anyone else thinks this sounds dumb.

"You can prevent the player from suiciding by doing some PvE"

If someone chooses to kill their own character that's their own stupid decision.

Real player agency would involve a toggle allowing us to mark our characters combatant not some suicide/PvE stopgap.

Straight up no.

A toggle is only of use for people looking for PvP for the sake of PvP, which is not the idea of hte corruption system.

Anyone out playing the game as the game is intended (PvP'ing over resources, spots, because you dislike a guild or person, etc) is in the exact same position, with or without a toggle.

The whole suicide by mob thing is very much an edge case of an edge case if this timer were bought in. It is in no way the normal way the game would be played. If the timer were in the game, people simply wouldn't attack another player unless they were willing to take on corruption, so if the person doesn't fight back, the attacker would simply carry on killing them.

I've had a dedicated PvPer nerd rage because I landed an ultimate with an uncurable lethal poison on him. He ran to the nearest NPC guards and attacked them so I wouldn't get the credit for the kill before the poison killed him.

The timer idea is great instead of a last hit marks the corrupted. Even if someone runs off to protect their loot the aggressors would still be red.

@Rhuric they still drop the loot, even when dying to the monster.

Rhuric

Warth wrote: »

Rhuric wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Tyrantor wrote: »

Lol I'm not sure if anyone else thinks this sounds dumb.

"You can prevent the player from suiciding by doing some PvE"

If someone chooses to kill their own character that's their own stupid decision.

Real player agency would involve a toggle allowing us to mark our characters combatant not some suicide/PvE stopgap.

Straight up no.

A toggle is only of use for people looking for PvP for the sake of PvP, which is not the idea of hte corruption system.

Anyone out playing the game as the game is intended (PvP'ing over resources, spots, because you dislike a guild or person, etc) is in the exact same position, with or without a toggle.

The whole suicide by mob thing is very much an edge case of an edge case if this timer were bought in. It is in no way the normal way the game would be played. If the timer were in the game, people simply wouldn't attack another player unless they were willing to take on corruption, so if the person doesn't fight back, the attacker would simply carry on killing them.

I've had a dedicated PvPer nerd rage because I landed an ultimate with an uncurable lethal poison on him. He ran to the nearest NPC guards and attacked them so I wouldn't get the credit for the kill before the poison killed him.

The timer idea is great instead of a last hit marks the corrupted. Even if someone runs off to protect their loot the aggressors would still be red.

@Rhuric they still drop the loot, even when dying to the monster.

Ah, so it would be better for the green to retaliate and go purple then, so they lose less on death.

Songcaller

Yeah, it pays to be more aggressive than some would want you to be.

Edit: In my mind a purple killing a green isn't a free kill, but, a green turning purple to kill a purple would be a free kill.

Warth

Rhuric wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

Rhuric wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Tyrantor wrote: »

Lol I'm not sure if anyone else thinks this sounds dumb.

"You can prevent the player from suiciding by doing some PvE"

If someone chooses to kill their own character that's their own stupid decision.

Real player agency would involve a toggle allowing us to mark our characters combatant not some suicide/PvE stopgap.

Straight up no.

A toggle is only of use for people looking for PvP for the sake of PvP, which is not the idea of hte corruption system.

Anyone out playing the game as the game is intended (PvP'ing over resources, spots, because you dislike a guild or person, etc) is in the exact same position, with or without a toggle.

The whole suicide by mob thing is very much an edge case of an edge case if this timer were bought in. It is in no way the normal way the game would be played. If the timer were in the game, people simply wouldn't attack another player unless they were willing to take on corruption, so if the person doesn't fight back, the attacker would simply carry on killing them.

I've had a dedicated PvPer nerd rage because I landed an ultimate with an uncurable lethal poison on him. He ran to the nearest NPC guards and attacked them so I wouldn't get the credit for the kill before the poison killed him.

The timer idea is great instead of a last hit marks the corrupted. Even if someone runs off to protect their loot the aggressors would still be red.

@Rhuric they still drop the loot, even when dying to the monster.

Ah, so it would be better for the green to retaliate and go purple then, so they lose less on death.

At least from what we know/expect so far, yes.
Obviously, testing might change something, but we'll see

Noaani

Tyrantor wrote: »

Toggle = Used in most group vs group pvp scenarios to avoid corruption and non-combatant death penalties by people participating in pvp (not just looking for).

Again, group vs group PvP is being encouraged in guild wars, node wars, caravans etc.

Intrepid straight up don't want wars between random groups in the open world. They aren't going to stop it, but they do want to discourage it.

And even with a toggle (that you and I both know what happen), the need for a system like the timer we are discussing is still there - unless you are going to suggest that PvP would only ever happen between players that opt to turn the toggle on (which again goes against the core ideals of Ashes).

Noaani

Rhuric wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Tyrantor wrote: »

Lol I'm not sure if anyone else thinks this sounds dumb.

"You can prevent the player from suiciding by doing some PvE"

If someone chooses to kill their own character that's their own stupid decision.

Real player agency would involve a toggle allowing us to mark our characters combatant not some suicide/PvE stopgap.

Straight up no.

A toggle is only of use for people looking for PvP for the sake of PvP, which is not the idea of hte corruption system.

Anyone out playing the game as the game is intended (PvP'ing over resources, spots, because you dislike a guild or person, etc) is in the exact same position, with or without a toggle.

The whole suicide by mob thing is very much an edge case of an edge case if this timer were bought in. It is in no way the normal way the game would be played. If the timer were in the game, people simply wouldn't attack another player unless they were willing to take on corruption, so if the person doesn't fight back, the attacker would simply carry on killing them.

I've had a dedicated PvPer nerd rage because I landed an ultimate with an uncurable lethal poison on him. He ran to the nearest NPC guards and attacked them so I wouldn't get the credit for the kill before the poison killed him.

The timer idea is great instead of a last hit marks the corrupted. Even if someone runs off to protect their loot the aggressors would still be red.

As pointed out above, the best way for the player to preserve what they have on them it to die fighting. That is how the game is designed now, and any addition of a timer like this should not change that. I would even be all for it if the death penalty for PvE death was higher than the death for a green PvP death, so the player in question is taking a bigger hit, but is also giving the attacker that corruption hit as a middle finger on their way out.

akabear

akabear wrote: »

The PvP system is pretty much a direct copy of the Lineage 2 system,.

Perhaps rather than trying to picture from the previous explanations and the wki, someone put this video together some time ago which pretty much sums up the proposed system

https://youtube.com/watch?v=DeKhbtog_pI

Quoting self here, but perhaps to improve the understanding of Ashes` PvP system for those that are unsure, would it be considered useful if the Dev team go from a written / spoken outline to creating their own explanatory video sometime in the future?

The video need only be brief and somewhat similar to the previously linked L2 one above but also perhaps include:

Group healing impact
And how karma might be burned off
Pk`s can be reduced

unknownsystemerror

Warth wrote: »

@Rhuric they still drop the loot, even when dying to the monster.

Can you link a citation for that?

Warth

unknownsystemerror wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

@Rhuric they still drop the loot, even when dying to the monster.

Can you link a citation for that?

@unknownsystemerror

Obviously, everything discussed is based on the current state of informations, which says:

Death penalties do not differ between PvP and PvE, but this is subject to change.[16]
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_death

Might very well change, but currently that's the case.

Sathrago

Sigh. The more I read and talk about Corruption the less excited I am for the game. I really wish we could get some solid testing and information out sooner.

I know... I know... It's Alpha.

Merek

Flagging system doesn't worry me at all, it'll either work or it wont. If it does, great, if it doesn't, it'll be fixed or abused til death.

Dragonsyear

Vhaeyne wrote: »

In lineage 2 the system worked fine for the most part. Yes, it was not perfect. Aside from Darkfall,UO, and EVEs systems, nothing is perfect. The AOC system is a modified version of the L2 system. I expect it to be fine, for AOC. The karma system is lenient enough to allow non-hardcore players a place in the world.

Maybe after a few more alphas they will learn it needs some more tweaking, but I expect the flagging system to be fine. I personally would rather have full loot, but I guess that causes too much "Emotional Distress" to work for a MMO that is trying to have a remotely large audience.

I would say just give it a shot, it is way too soon to tell if a modified version of a proven system is unusable.

I agree darkfalls system was perfect. And I hope that system applies to open water

akabear

Whilst there might be a relative safety from the pk system by participating within caravan fights, I can see that very action escalating conflict to potential fights of recompense be that one on one, clan vs clan or even node vs node.

Heruwolf

akabear wrote: »

Whilst there might be a relative safety from the pk system by participating within caravan fights, I can see that very action escalating conflict to potential fights of recompense be that one on one, clan vs clan or even node vs node.

As it should, no?

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