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Crafting - how to make it engaging?
Valdek
Member
So a bunch of us got into talking about how we could make crafting more interactive on discord, and I said I would have a go at posting some ideas here.
1. Option for interactive interface to enhance crafting.
Could have a standard 'click and craft' option for those who want a faster route. This would cost the standard amount for materials. Take making a sword - 5 bars of iron, 3 portions of flux, smelted at a constant 800*C (numbers completely made up, I have no idea how to make a sword). This would be the usual, easy 'click and forget' crafting system seen in many games.
However, you could choose to go for the 'craft unique item' option where you enter a forging interface. Here, you could do things like adjust the temperature, control how hard the metal is hit, alter the amount of flux used, and your interactive skills could be unlocked and improved through the crafting skill tree (much like the antiquities system in ESO). This system should be higher risk but higher reward. If you muck it up, you get a badly made sword and use up more resources. If you do it really well, you could use fewer resources and create a better item. This system could be really fun to use to try to get the best quality items - risk loosing the best materials with the reward of potentially crafting the best items. It would also mean that the very best crafters in the game would have to understand how and when to change the temperature, adjust the amount of flux, when to hit harder or softer, in order to get the best results. Could even add extra ingredients for unexpected results to promote experimenting, like creating new alloys. They really would be and feel like master smiths.
2. Structured crafting planning.
Create some form of planning structure where you can adjust quantities and suchlike, a bit like with the EVE Online planetary and manufacturing systems. This would allow players to try to achieve the maximum efficiency for using resources getting the best quality goods possible, with new tools and options unlocking as your crafting skill increases.
Those are some ideas so far. Please feel free to add more or tear these ideas apart as appropriate.
1. Option for interactive interface to enhance crafting.
Could have a standard 'click and craft' option for those who want a faster route. This would cost the standard amount for materials. Take making a sword - 5 bars of iron, 3 portions of flux, smelted at a constant 800*C (numbers completely made up, I have no idea how to make a sword). This would be the usual, easy 'click and forget' crafting system seen in many games.
However, you could choose to go for the 'craft unique item' option where you enter a forging interface. Here, you could do things like adjust the temperature, control how hard the metal is hit, alter the amount of flux used, and your interactive skills could be unlocked and improved through the crafting skill tree (much like the antiquities system in ESO). This system should be higher risk but higher reward. If you muck it up, you get a badly made sword and use up more resources. If you do it really well, you could use fewer resources and create a better item. This system could be really fun to use to try to get the best quality items - risk loosing the best materials with the reward of potentially crafting the best items. It would also mean that the very best crafters in the game would have to understand how and when to change the temperature, adjust the amount of flux, when to hit harder or softer, in order to get the best results. Could even add extra ingredients for unexpected results to promote experimenting, like creating new alloys. They really would be and feel like master smiths.
2. Structured crafting planning.
Create some form of planning structure where you can adjust quantities and suchlike, a bit like with the EVE Online planetary and manufacturing systems. This would allow players to try to achieve the maximum efficiency for using resources getting the best quality goods possible, with new tools and options unlocking as your crafting skill increases.
Those are some ideas so far. Please feel free to add more or tear these ideas apart as appropriate.
3
Comments
Crafting is not optional. It is very essential in mmos and so everybody has to use the system, whether they enjoy being a crafter or not.
I can see crafting being its own thing in games like ffxiv. But in that game there isn't much else going on.
The singleplayer is ez, you got your instanced content and gathering and that's it.
No weapon lv up, no node involvement, no faction quests (cultist, scientist, bounty hunter) on top of your primary class progress. No open world pvp obstacles, no guild conteibution and attendance.
I like crafting. After failing in Games Development I started a trade carrier. I also enjoy watching Man at Arms and other blacksmithing shows and documentaries.
But I believe that making crafting a minigame will take a toll on the gameplay experience of the majority of mmo players in AoC.
Is it really not optional? I was under the impression that a player could make money in a variety of ways, including but not limited to crafting, and since there is trade in the game, you could just buy the items directly rather than having to mess with the crafting system.
While I do kind of agree, I don't think it is that simple.
A mini-game that is required for all crafting is tedious. However, having a mini-game associated with just crafting top end/rare items isn't.
A crafter may craft several hundred items at a time to level up, a mini-game on each is tedious. However, they are likely to only ever craft a dozen or so rare items a week. Having a mini-game for that is not only fine, but in my opinion it is desirable.
A better way would be either @Noaani 's suggestion where mini-games are mandatory but only for very specific and limited crafts or optional mini-games for every final craft which wouldn't affect stats. It could be something to customize the appearance or a way to craft with less (basic) resources for example.
Side note : Maybe it's better to regroup our ideas in the existing topic
A way around this would be to make it so that using the interactive form *can* be more material efficient if you do it well, so for example, you don't use as much of your rare materials, at the cost of using more if you do it badly. That way it wouldn't effect the stats on the item, but if you invest time in quality crafting, you invest less time or resources in material acquisition.
Personally though, I like the idea of being able to get a slightly better item if you know how to craft something using the interactive mode. For example, my old fencing teacher was a master swordsmith (in real life) and I remember him telling me about how when you are cooling the metal with water, you can dunk it once then take it out, wait for the metal to begin to a certain colour as it cools slowly, then dunk it a second time to get the optimal blade strength and durability.
You're not wrong. I'm just saying that it wouldn't be fair to call it an optional mini-game if it increases stats. The Meta will want you to have the higher stats.
With respect, this is not a very good solution. First off, what one person finds tedious another finds engaging. Secondly, it is /not/ difficult to make an engaging crafting game. Please pay attention to FFXIV and the old EQ2 systems, in which the crafting essentially plays out like combat encounters with skills to use, their own stats and gear, and possibility of critical success and failure based on player skill management.
If the crafting system is simply click and press then it is not better than WoW and any of its clones.
Furthermore: this is going to be a game where not everyone is going to craft and that is good! The whole point of AoC is to have many many different ways to play. So, if you don't like crafting systems with actual systems and engagement needed to make the items, then you dont have to do it. Those of us who actually like crafting will be more than happy to do it for you.
So i'll start with the fact that i don't consider myself a crafter.
This is why I'm hesitant to say we need to add a mini-game to crafting or there needs to be an active/reactive component to the crafting process. I worry that adding that turns crafting into the same kind of gameplay that players get from combat and wonder if:
1. that's what people who like crafting enjoy
2. If we need the overlap.
I'm not sure the answer to this but with people who like active gameplay already being served by the combat in the game, i wonder if crafting needs to be the same.
I'm not fan of minigames in any aspect of a game - I shunned the Sniper Rifle in BDO and just hunted with a Matchlock for example, but, Valheim's approach was a refreshing change. There are ways to make crafting engaging without deploying minigames.
I played FFXIV and I can tell most of the endgame crafters use macros. They essentially just push a button and look at the screen for a minute until the craft is ready. Also resources are easy to get so even if you fail a craft it doesn’t matter. I doubt resources will be that easy to get in AoC (even without the PvP obstacle)
To be honest I also would like a sophisticated crafting system. I like it too. But FFXIV is not the way to go.
So the meta is the minigame. Comments like these prove my point. In a world filled with conflict of interests and competitiveness, like Verra, people will seek to get every advantage they can over their enemies.
Mastering a craft and keeping your inventory and chest full of wealth and gear will be hard, on top of all the other activities we need to do to stay ahead.
The majority of the players don't need a tedious crafting process. This isn't real life. It is a game. Most of us don't want to spend our gaming time inside a virtual house playing the "crafting mmo".
You want to pretend to be a carpenter or a cook?
Ask the devs for an entirely optional complex crafting system that the majority of us who want to pretend to be fighters rogues mages knights explorers pirates kings can opt out from, and go waste hours on it.
This is no different to people not wanting to PvP. They have choices, playAshes in a way that minimizes PvP,or play something else.
If crafting is actually made interesting (read; has mechanic associated with it), then this same choice can be made in relation to crafting.
This depends on what you're crafting for and how large the bonus would be. If you're wanting to min-max gold through crafting then yea, the mini-game could be the meta...however if you're wanting to just crank up your level in a certain profession to build your own gear or just putting something together to mass sell to lower levels then you really don't need to bother.
If you're wanting to min-max gold through crafting and are worried about a tiny mini-game then crafting likely isn't the way you should be making gold, you could instead sell PvP/PvE services, farm mats, or flip goods from one area to another. I don't have any strong desire to min-max my crafting so you won't see me participate in the minigames.
Knee-jerk reaction comment. Pick up your game.
There is no choice if the crafting minigame is the only way to get higher quality items.
The only people who will choose to avoid the tedious mechanics are the people that DON'T WANT TOP QUALITY ITEMS.
Well at least your high quality item is guaranteed using the mini game. Chances are AoC crafting system will be inspired from SWG. It looks really good to be fair but I’m not a fan of RNG having its place in the stats of the final craft. Need Crit for your proc based class ? Pray the the Seven you’ll not need to craft your weapon a dozen of times.
Like I said it’s not possible to make every player happy.
Well I think that's fair.
But players who hate crafting minigames have the option to not craft at all -- most items (including powerful ones I assume) in Ashes won't be soulbound, players are free to acquire their wealth in anyway they like (intensive high-end PvE, or PvP robbery, or trading, or whatever), then purchase the powerful items from other players who're willing to pick up crafting (and the mini games).
That was the case in Eve Online - some players (and corps) liked & had the resources to run manufacturing starbases / stations & the supply chains, while many others probably have never manufactured anything at all and just bought whatever they needed off the market.
Actually IMO that should be the ideal case in mmorpgs. Crafting should be a thing, but it doesn't mean everyone has to be a crafter (i.e. don't be GW2). And the crafting gameplay doesn't have to please everyone.
Btw I'm all for having a deep & reasonably complicated crafting gameplay (be it minigames, or a complicated supply chain, or requires the player to have in depth knowledge of in game mechanics) and raise the barriers to entry, AS LONG AS the challenges presented can be overcome with player skill and/or knowledge. i.e. Please minimize the impacts of RNG.
Nothing is more discouraging & frustrating than having spent enormous amount of effort & time to acquire all the necessary ingredients, and doing everything right, just to watch a bad RNG roll ruin it all. (Over-enchanting is an exception, since it's already been widely accepted as a form of high-risk-high-reward gambling)
The question is, would you want the option to become more involved in your profession in order to master it? If not, nothing wrong with investing time more in gathering resources or gaining gold in some other way to just pay for the benefits, while those who want to be master artisans spend their time perfecting their skill. Or just get by on the standard products. I think it would add to the feeling of being able to focus on the area of the game you choose.
Pick a profession that's not about crafting them. Not all characters are going to crafters, in fact, most likely won't be able to, as the market is sustained by gatherers, who can not also be crafters.
You can just buy the item, or commission it from a crafter. Equipment will not be bound to your character, so you can always sell it or buy it from others.
Yeah, I thought this is how it is planned to work, and I addressed this earlier in the thread but I guess no one noticed.
Thus, I just want to reiterate for anyone worried about having to do crafting, you can literally buy top quality items directly without having to craft anything at all.
Also, for RNG elements, this is what you do: Look up the probabilities for success, then divide the components required by the success rate. This will give you the actual components needed to craft something on average. Looking at it from a statistical perspective gives you more reasonable expectations on receiving the item you want. You won't get more than 3 standard deviations from the mean unless you are extremely un/lucky.
Gathering has you wander around to collect resources. This is particularly time consuming.
Compare this to processing and crafting: in most games they require 1 minute of your attention.
Open the UI --> select 3 options --> click [craft] --> switch off your brain and get a notification 10 hours later that it's done.
These are not equal commitments.
Maybe Processor artisans could have more of an administrative/logistics focus to their craft?
I don't like the idea of Master Artisans being distinguished simply because they've been grinding the most artisan experience from mass crafting bronze ingots all day. But asking for a crafting system with skill depth is heading toward scope creep... Also maybe these discussions are a bit premature?
However, the downfall to the completely open trading of any craft item or service is how much more damaging gold farming and selling would be to it. If it isn't super tight, you have a black-market version of the Diablo 3 auction house, and people who cheat resources into their account accomplish virtually anything with almost no effort requirements as a check against it.
When crafting, you are not spending all of your time making items that you will use or sell. You are making items for quests, and making a whole lot of items just for the xp gain. None of that would require the mini-game, based on what I suggested above.
That mini-game would only happen when you get a rare material to make a decent item out of. And as the name suggests, that material would be rare - and thus making an item out of it would be rare, meaning using the mini-game would be rare.
If you are unwilling to put in even that rudimentary level of effort in to crafting, don't craft. Even more to the point, don't argue for a bland, drab, lifeless crafting system for the rest of us.