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Player Power Increase (Gear)

VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I remember hearing Steven mention in one of the interviews that in AoC the power difference due to gear between a fresh max level player and a geared max level player will be about 40%-50%. That might still be a little high, but I think it's a great place to be compared to other MMORPGs.

I strongly believe that it can be very unhealthy for the game if the power increase between a fresh max level player and a geared max level player is so out of hand that the weaker character just gets two shot for example. It is very important to allow players to see that someone who has been gearing up for longer is stronger, but not to the point where the weaker player doesn't even feel like they hit max level. We want to want to progress, but we don't want to feel that the hill is so steep that it's insurmountable.

Players will work hard for even small power increases as long as it is reasonable and there is a feeling of progression. I just hope that throughout AoC's lifetime, you will keep this balance in mind and never let it get out of hand because it can be extremely discouraging for newer or more casual players.

Comments

  • xydrassialxydrassial Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    vmangman wrote: »
    Players will work hard for even small power increases as long as it is reasonable and there is a feeling of progression.

    I agree ! <3

  • vmangman wrote: »
    I remember hearing Steven mention in one of the interviews that in AoC the power difference due to gear between a fresh max level player and a geared max level player will be about 40%-50%.

    That's not exactly true. He said, that gear will be the source of 40-50% of a players power. Which i'd interpret as (in a very simplified manner):

    Min Geared:
    1. 10k HP
    2. 300 DPS

    Max Geared:
    1. 20k HP
    2. 600 DPS

    Which is more fair than pretty much any game I have ever seen. Actually, in most games, somebody will just one combo you if there is a medium level of gear difference. I don't think either, that fresh max levels should be able to challenge someone who has put 6 months of effort into the game. If they could, it would invalidate most of the progression they plan to have in the game.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    The numbers aren't accurate:
    +50%
    would be:
    10k HP
    300 DPS

    to

    15k HP
    450 DPS.

    +50% doesn't double stats and skills.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • Neurath wrote: »
    The numbers aren't accurate:
    +50%
    would be:
    10k HP
    300 DPS

    to

    15k HP
    450 DPS.

    +50% doesn't double stats and skills.

    No its not. It's not a 50% increase on your base power. It's 40-50% of your total power.
  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Warth wrote: »
    vmangman wrote: »
    I remember hearing Steven mention in one of the interviews that in AoC the power difference due to gear between a fresh max level player and a geared max level player will be about 40%-50%.

    That's not exactly true. He said, that gear will be the source of 40-50% of a players power. Which i'd interpret as (in a very simplified manner):

    Min Geared:
    1. 10k HP
    2. 300 DPS

    Max Geared:
    1. 20k HP
    2. 600 DPS

    Which is more fair than pretty much any game I have ever seen. Actually, in most games, somebody will just one combo you if there is a medium level of gear difference. I don't think either, that fresh max levels should be able to challenge someone who has put 6 months of effort into the game. If they could, it would invalidate most of the progression they plan to have in the game.

    What is not exactly true? That is exactly what I said as well... a player's gear will increase a player's power by about 40-50%.

    However, you got the math wrong. 50% increase on 10k and 300 is 15k and 450 respectively not the double numbers you put out.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited February 2021
    Base power includes passives, stats and starting point. That means where are you getting the extra 50% stats from? Because to my knowledge, the equipment can be the only extra boons after max level. We do not know how effective Bard Buffs are which can be another source of extra potency, but, I still don't believe stats will be doubled at full max gear.

    If stats are doubled at full max gear that equates to 2vs1 in a 1vs1 fight. I know there is no balance in 1vs1 but Steven said in the Asmongold interview* the differential between a fresh 50 and a fully geared 50 is 50%. Not 50% on top of 50% in difference.

    Edit: Spelling mistakes.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Warth wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    The numbers aren't accurate:
    +50%
    would be:
    10k HP
    300 DPS

    to

    15k HP
    450 DPS.

    +50% doesn't double stats and skills.

    No its not. It's not a 50% increase on your base power. It's 40-50% of your total power.

    What are you talking about? What is difference between base and total power in your mind? Base is what your base stats are and total is what your base + gear adds up to. So if you have 10k base hp with a 50% gear power increase you will go to 15k hp.
  • vmangman wrote: »
    Warth wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    The numbers aren't accurate:
    +50%
    would be:
    10k HP
    300 DPS

    to

    15k HP
    450 DPS.

    +50% doesn't double stats and skills.

    No its not. It's not a 50% increase on your base power. It's 40-50% of your total power.

    What are you talking about? What is difference between base and total power in your mind? Base is what your base stats are and total is what your base + gear adds up to. So if you have 10k base hp with a 50% gear power increase you will go to 15k hp.

    You don't have a 50% gear increase on your base stats though.
    Your gear attributes for 50% of your total power aka. of your total stat pool.

    so 10k of 20k HP comes from gear. -> 50%
    not 5k of 15k HP -> 33%
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    You've reversed the amalgamations but they still don't make sense.

    If I am level 50 my base stats are base stats and no longer move.

    If I then add the max gear the stats will be improved by 50% compared to the standard equipment. We can therefore only gain 50% advantage over a standard gear level 50. Both a level 50 standard gear and level 50 max gear should start with the same amount of health. You can't double the base stats from the max gear only add 50% from the base gear.

    Even if you try to reverse the amalgamation your numbers don't add up. You haven't explained where you are getting the excess 50% from. The rough estimate from Steven is a 50% difference not a 100% difference.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    The way I look at facts is like this:

    We have 5 tiers in terms of the parameters such as gear.

    If the base stat is 10k health we would adjust as so:

    Full Tier 1 : 11k Health
    Full Tier 2 : 12 k health
    Full tier 3 : 13 k health
    full tier 4 : 14 k health
    full tier 5 : 15 k health.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • WarthWarth Member
    edited February 2021
    Neurath wrote: »
    You've reversed the amalgamations but they still don't make sense.

    If I am level 50 my base stats are base stats and no longer move.

    If I then add the max gear the stats will be improved by 50% compared to the standard equipment. We can therefore only gain 50% advantage over a standard gear level 50. Both a level 50 standard gear and level 50 max gear should start with the same amount of health. You can't double the base stats from the max gear only add 50% from the base gear.

    Even if you try to reverse the amalgamation your numbers don't add up. You haven't explained where you are getting the excess 50% from. The rough estimate from Steven is a 50% difference not a 100% difference.

    but its not stated, that you have a 50% increase over another player. It's stated that gear contributes 50% of your total power aka. 50% of your combat stats.

    So your total stat pool might(let's say 20k health) consist of
    • 50% gear
    • 30% bases stats
    • 20% passive skills, buffs, etc.

    According to the Wiki, gear delivers of 50% of a players statistical power.
    Not high end gear makes you 50% stronger than a low tier geared player
  • If we assume min gear as the basic set of maximum level (50) and with that complete set of level you have 10k, it is assumed that in comparison the best equipment will be only 50% better than what you already gear.
    I’m not understanding these numbers very well either
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited February 2021
    I understand your perspective now. The issue was OP mentioned gear and nothing else. You mentioned gear and other aspects.

    The base stats will still be applied at level 50 regardless of gear.

    You won't get more passives after level 50 unless you change the secondary class, even then you won't gain more just different passives. This only changes if you can't unlock some augments until you hit level 50.

    Steven mentions skill is an arch of 'power'. In theory, you should be unlocking skill based abilities on the way to 50. It would essentially become the base stats though. You can't really add percentages to raw power for player skill however. It is a complex issue because I haven't played the game yet.

    The skills are finite however, and, it is reasonable to suppose both a basic level 50 and a fully geared level 50 will have the same levels of active skills. Though, active skills will vary.

    Edit: Spelling mistakes.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • I hope that gear score isn't the largest factor. I hope that player skill plays a larger role.

    This is one area that I feel GW2 got right. The difference between exotic (vendor purchasable) and legendary gear is only a few points and some infusion (gem) slots. The difference in gear stats between the mid level Ascended armor and top level legendary armor is 0. The reason to grind out that legendary armor is for the skins, and that you can stat swap anytime you like. This makes the pvp and WvW (my favorite play style) more about player skill and less about gear score.

    Many would say the lack of tangible gains from gear grinding would hurt the games long term out look. But the game is around 8 years old now and still has an active player base. So that is apparently not the case. Although many jokingly say that GW2 end game is Fashion wars.
  • Neurath wrote: »
    I understand your perspective now. The issue was OP mentioned gear and nothing else. You mentioned gear and other aspects.

    The base stats will still be applied at level 50 regardless of gear.

    You won't get more passives after level 50 unless you change the secondary class, even then you won't gain more just different passives. This only changes if you can't unlock some augments until you hit level 50.

    Steven mentions skill is an arch of 'power'. In theory, you should be unlocking skill based abilities on the way to 50. It would essentially become the base stats though. You can't really add percentages to raw power for player skill however. It is a complex issue because I haven't played the game yet.

    The skills are finite however, and, it is reasonable to suppose both a basic level 50 and a fully geared level 50 will have the same levels of active skills. Though, active skills will vary.

    Edit: Spelling mistakes.

    I wasn't able to listen into the source video before, but to me he seems to say, that gear will indeed give a maximum of 50% power boost over other players with minimum gear.

    That's not reflected in the Wiki Statement at all though.

    The Wiki Statement suggests, that the gear is the source of 50% of a players overall (synonym for total) power ( aka. stats).

    @Neurath from what Steven said in the Interview, I'd agree with your 10k -> 15k assesement.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Yeah, no worries. I had to listen to the same interview again to clarify my points. I'm pleased we've reached consensus because sometimes my information has been changed in the interim periods between my posts. I flit in and out of the forums depending on my work load :)
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