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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
What's an ideal skill rotation? Where's that sweet, balanced spot in terms of complexity?
Voidwalkers
Member
Suddenly wondered what would a typical skill rotation in Ashes be like, and also,
What makes a skill rotation / combination FUN to play?
I've been through several mmorpgs myself and have experienced dozens of classes with various skill combo mechanics, ranging from:
- mindless button smashing or autoattacks (Ragnarok Online) or single spell spamming (mages in vanilla wow),
- to keep-all-dots-up frenzy (affliction warlocks, who need to manage an ever increasing number of dots & debuffs as more expansions were released),
- to whack-a-mole minigames (smash the next spell that has proc-ed, or the next that came off cooldown),
- to crazy-kit-switching (Pre-holosmith engineer in GW2, when "max dps" meant constantly switching between your main weapon & bomb/grenade/elixir-gun kits and use certain skills as soon as they're off cooldown),
- to sequenced-dancing (I remember in FF14, some classes' (monk? dragoon?) skills need to be used in sequence, and your position relative to the mob affects your damage -- some had a flanking bonus, some had a backstab bonus, as a result you had to dance around the mob as you execute your skill sequences).
The one which I enjoyed the most was:
- Black mages in FF14. Basically you rotate between frost & fire spells to balance dps and mana consumption. You could temporarily bias your rotation towards either side for burst dps or max mana regen.
The ones I felt the most comfortable playing were:
- WotLK-era arcane & fire mages. You had 1~2 procs to watch for, 1~2 buffs or debuffs to maintain, and a total of 3~4 spells commonly used in your rotations.
The ones I played and hated:
- Later versions of affliction warlocks. Simply too many dots & debuffs & cooldowns to manage.
- Bomb/grenade/elixir engineer (GW2). Simply too busy. And the worst part being having to manage multiple invisible cooldowns (skills not on your currently activated kit).
What are you guys' thoughts & experience with skill rotations in previous games? Which classes did you enjoy or hate?
And again, in your opinion what are the essences of a FUN skill rotation / combination / mechanics?
What makes a skill rotation / combination FUN to play?
I've been through several mmorpgs myself and have experienced dozens of classes with various skill combo mechanics, ranging from:
- mindless button smashing or autoattacks (Ragnarok Online) or single spell spamming (mages in vanilla wow),
- to keep-all-dots-up frenzy (affliction warlocks, who need to manage an ever increasing number of dots & debuffs as more expansions were released),
- to whack-a-mole minigames (smash the next spell that has proc-ed, or the next that came off cooldown),
- to crazy-kit-switching (Pre-holosmith engineer in GW2, when "max dps" meant constantly switching between your main weapon & bomb/grenade/elixir-gun kits and use certain skills as soon as they're off cooldown),
- to sequenced-dancing (I remember in FF14, some classes' (monk? dragoon?) skills need to be used in sequence, and your position relative to the mob affects your damage -- some had a flanking bonus, some had a backstab bonus, as a result you had to dance around the mob as you execute your skill sequences).
The one which I enjoyed the most was:
- Black mages in FF14. Basically you rotate between frost & fire spells to balance dps and mana consumption. You could temporarily bias your rotation towards either side for burst dps or max mana regen.
The ones I felt the most comfortable playing were:
- WotLK-era arcane & fire mages. You had 1~2 procs to watch for, 1~2 buffs or debuffs to maintain, and a total of 3~4 spells commonly used in your rotations.
The ones I played and hated:
- Later versions of affliction warlocks. Simply too many dots & debuffs & cooldowns to manage.
- Bomb/grenade/elixir engineer (GW2). Simply too busy. And the worst part being having to manage multiple invisible cooldowns (skills not on your currently activated kit).
What are you guys' thoughts & experience with skill rotations in previous games? Which classes did you enjoy or hate?
And again, in your opinion what are the essences of a FUN skill rotation / combination / mechanics?
0
Comments
I'd be very curious to hear how you think you could design a game to not have skill rotations in PvE.
You'd need to make all skills viable in various circumstances rather than the limitations of a skill rotation never changing despite the change of mobs.
You'd need to enable resource pool replenishment (Such as long shot basic attacks).
You'd need to create obstacles to damage types. I.e. mobs enrage from fire, mobs enrage from ice, mobs enrage from lightning, mobs enrage from physical damage etc.
You'd need to create a system where one class deals with Buffs/Debuffs (Bard). Rather than all classes have a buff and a debuff which is just spammed.
You'd need to make buffs/debuffs situational and not perfect for all occasions.
You must create active boss mechanics which mean a person can't stand in one place to perform a rotation like a lemon.
You'd need to prevent DPS Meters so people can pay attention to the mechanics and not the stat scores.
Edit: Spelling mistakes.
Essentially, each time you press an ability, the game decides which ability would be best to press next at random.
You won't ever have a static rotation with that. With that being said, the above mentioned design would be absolutely horrendous and is not desired at all. It's not a rotation though.
At some point, it becomes less like a rotation and more like an extensive decision tree, that can differ depending on your party setup and the enemy you are facing.
I also like cycles that are a bit of a balancing act, and the flow of battle shakes things up and you have to use your other abilities to try to keep the cycle balanced.
EQ2 doesn't have rotations.
A good chunk of Ashes senior developers worked on EQ2.
Rotations are the lazy developers path for class design, and only players that have either never played a game without rotations or that want the game to be mindlessly boring to play would want rotations to exist.
Rotations aren't necessarily mindless. The trick is including random procs or add in factors that create decision points at certain key points. Like having abilities that do extra damage in conjugation with each other or having . But I do agree static rotations do get boring and are somewhat lazy.
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
Even if you were in a slightly different position, you would still find yourself in a position where you only need to make one change in your standard rotation. I don't consider that to be enough thinking to not constitute being mindless.
To me, the best way top make combat interesting is to have every ability have a cooldown (no spam attacks), and have some abilities, buffs and effects that can occasionally alter the state of spell cast times, cooldowns and damage value.
As long as these altering effects are not constant and not 100% predictable, you can't set up any kind of viable rotation if you want to perform well. When you have all of these effects working in conjunction - and even some of these effects affecting other of these effects, you have to think about every cast if you want to be at the top.
The best part of this is that if a poor player plays a class like this, they may find themselves at times with literally every ability they have on cooldown - a good class should - imo - have that as a possibility if you are not paying attention.
All that said, while I fully believe Ashes should have builds that are as above, I also believe they should have builds that are able to be played via basic, mindless rotation play. There should absolutely be a measurable difference in the outcome, but both should exist imo.
Can you guys describe how did boss fights / long PvE fights work in EQ2?
btw I'm not a fan of static rotations either. e.g. If 3 skills need to be used in a static sequence (usually happens with "monk"ish classes), I'd rather see them chained together as an autoattack (e.g. skill 1 for all weapons in GW2)
For AOC, none because that is what the DEVs said they want. The said they want to promote gameplay that uses the right skill for the right time. Also it allows for more customization with classes. If rotations are a thing than you have to build your character to the rotation, and that is very limiting.
In General?
Any rotation that doesn't rely on procs. I don't like feeling like I am playing a slot machine waiting for the DPS stars to align.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
This is a *very* basic outline I typed up a few weeks ago of a few aspects of the fight from the perspective of one class, Wizard. It sould at least give you an idea of what I am talking about.