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[Minithread] 2h Shields and You.
Sathrago
Member
My cousins the Dual-shielders were shot down.... but there is still hope for the 2h shield! I believe this would bring great flavor to the weapons scene and allow for players to invent interesting setups if implemented properly.
Now, before you complain that this is not "realistic" let us get something out of the way. If a fighter can throw out a string and pull a mob the same size and perhaps even larger than themselves 30 to 40 yards back to them (If someone can link me the clip I would appreciate it. I can't seem to find it.), then its easily believable that someone could wield a body-sized shield to some viable degree. If weapons are being designed with strengths and weaknesses or perhaps even roles, I believe we can find such a place for the 2h shield without stepping on the toes of the 1h/shield combination.
First, let's establish what sort of role this weapon would attempt to take on. I believe a tank/support role is the most fitting, with the possibility for some niche damage builds that are not as good as our damage dealing counter parts. These could be the weapons a tank might prefer in a siege or if they have to solely defend a group. I could see some really good utility with channeled blocks and such during sieges and raids. If needed I can hopefully expand on this with your questions and concerns. For now, lets move on to stats and abilities.
Stats, well this would most likely fall into the heavily armored neck of the woods and grant a higher bonus to health and damage reduction at the cost of damage. Perhaps there will be augments for your equipment and builds that can try to turn this into a damage dealer, but that is not the focus of the weapon and should just be a happy accident.
Alright now for the abilities. I have a few ideas for the basic attacks, these can be expanded upon naturally so any suggestions would be helpful.
First move, Ram, you charge a short distance and smash the target with the sheer weight of you and your shield. Add shield spikes to increase its damage.
Second move, Bash, a simple slamming of the shield for some damage and maybe a stacking slow or debuff.
Third move, Toe-nail Clipper, You raise your shield overhead and slam its bottom into the ground dealing a good amount of damage and tripping the target. Probably want a decent cooldown on that one.
Without a real understanding of how many attacks you can pick up from equipping and talenting your weapons this is the best I could do. But this is purely the offensive side of a 2h shield and this could be expanded on in a monster hunter fashion within a fantasy world that should have a decently high amount of tech knowledge.
As for defensive abilities, as mentioned before they could have channeled blocks that redirect damage from an ally to themselves or other similar moves. let me try my hand at a few. Ill just do 3 to make things simple.
First move, Intervene, You hop a short distance, placing yourself in front of the targeted ally reducing damage they receive for a few seconds.
Second move, Bulwark, You slam your shield into the ground for stability, redirecting attacks made to allies within 5 yards behind you to yourself. AoE attacks are not redirected, they instead deal reduced damage. This move is channeled for a good 8 to 10 seconds and has a moderate cooldown.
Third move, Deflecting Stance, You set your feet and prepare your shield, deflecting projectile attacks that pass through your zone of control. This "zone of control" could be a small 5 yard radius around the user and this would also be a channeled spell.
For the love of god do not freak out if you believe these are overpowered abilities. Use this as a framework and see if you can come up with a better idea or improve on what I have said. This is extremely difficult to suggest properly since we do not know enough about the weapon systems for me to give better examples.
Also, a two-handed shield is not a dual-wielded shield. Thanks for reading.
Now, before you complain that this is not "realistic" let us get something out of the way. If a fighter can throw out a string and pull a mob the same size and perhaps even larger than themselves 30 to 40 yards back to them (If someone can link me the clip I would appreciate it. I can't seem to find it.), then its easily believable that someone could wield a body-sized shield to some viable degree. If weapons are being designed with strengths and weaknesses or perhaps even roles, I believe we can find such a place for the 2h shield without stepping on the toes of the 1h/shield combination.
First, let's establish what sort of role this weapon would attempt to take on. I believe a tank/support role is the most fitting, with the possibility for some niche damage builds that are not as good as our damage dealing counter parts. These could be the weapons a tank might prefer in a siege or if they have to solely defend a group. I could see some really good utility with channeled blocks and such during sieges and raids. If needed I can hopefully expand on this with your questions and concerns. For now, lets move on to stats and abilities.
Stats, well this would most likely fall into the heavily armored neck of the woods and grant a higher bonus to health and damage reduction at the cost of damage. Perhaps there will be augments for your equipment and builds that can try to turn this into a damage dealer, but that is not the focus of the weapon and should just be a happy accident.
Alright now for the abilities. I have a few ideas for the basic attacks, these can be expanded upon naturally so any suggestions would be helpful.
First move, Ram, you charge a short distance and smash the target with the sheer weight of you and your shield. Add shield spikes to increase its damage.
Second move, Bash, a simple slamming of the shield for some damage and maybe a stacking slow or debuff.
Third move, Toe-nail Clipper, You raise your shield overhead and slam its bottom into the ground dealing a good amount of damage and tripping the target. Probably want a decent cooldown on that one.
Without a real understanding of how many attacks you can pick up from equipping and talenting your weapons this is the best I could do. But this is purely the offensive side of a 2h shield and this could be expanded on in a monster hunter fashion within a fantasy world that should have a decently high amount of tech knowledge.
As for defensive abilities, as mentioned before they could have channeled blocks that redirect damage from an ally to themselves or other similar moves. let me try my hand at a few. Ill just do 3 to make things simple.
First move, Intervene, You hop a short distance, placing yourself in front of the targeted ally reducing damage they receive for a few seconds.
Second move, Bulwark, You slam your shield into the ground for stability, redirecting attacks made to allies within 5 yards behind you to yourself. AoE attacks are not redirected, they instead deal reduced damage. This move is channeled for a good 8 to 10 seconds and has a moderate cooldown.
Third move, Deflecting Stance, You set your feet and prepare your shield, deflecting projectile attacks that pass through your zone of control. This "zone of control" could be a small 5 yard radius around the user and this would also be a channeled spell.
For the love of god do not freak out if you believe these are overpowered abilities. Use this as a framework and see if you can come up with a better idea or improve on what I have said. This is extremely difficult to suggest properly since we do not know enough about the weapon systems for me to give better examples.
Also, a two-handed shield is not a dual-wielded shield. Thanks for reading.
Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
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Comments
I made my own thread because that thread is about dual-wield shields that have already been confirmed by Steven not to be possible for the game. The intent of that thread was for dual-wielded shields and the intent of mine is to talk about 2h shields. I wish to talk about the specific topic of 2h shields and there is too much cross talk in that thread to have a proper conversation about it.
I respect your idea. I really do. It would be a unique approach to the tank class but I can't see passed how bad the skills would be while going this route. Shield bash, shield slam, shield toss, shield smash, shield reflect, shield punch, shield my mind from these shield abilities all over my bars!
I feel that this just comes down to personal preference and that's fine, but I would ask that you not try to stop other's ideas unless it actually constrains or affects your preferences.
Or are you saying that adding a 2h shield would make the other weapons worse? And if so, how?
First of all, I don't believe they have a place in general combat. There should be no player that thinks a two handed shield build is viable for them to charge in to a PvP situation with.
My thoughts on it are that two handed shields absolutely should exist, but they should be there purely and solely to provide additional protection to other characters. They should only ever be viable in large scale (100 characters or more) situations, and only ever as a specific part of a deliberate team built to perform a specific task.
The two ways I see this happening are someone using a two handed shield could provide cover to a group of people setting up siege equipment, or provide a similar function to a group of long range DPS.
Both of these funcitons have something resembling historical accuracy - as there were people specifically assigned to protect both groups of people in combat in the past, and the concept of a two handed shield would just be a games way of translating that specific and sole dedication to protecting other people.
I'm going to expand purely on the ranged DPS aspect here, as that is the one that I've considered the most.
If you are a solo player, you need to take cear of your offense, your defense, your healing, your CC and your mob control. As you expand in to group content, other players may take over portions of that so you can focus more on one specific aspect of that. You may be a healer joining a group for example, which means you need to focus on healing, but others are taking care of all offensive requirements for you.
As you expand to raids, this gets even more focused, with very few people in a raid needing to focus on any more than one of the above things. Obviously, the more you can focus on that one thing, the better at it you will be.
This doesn't generally hold true in PvP as much though. A purely glass cannon build may work on a raid, but it is likely not the best idea in most PvP situations. In order to be effective in PvP, you need to be able to do some of all of the above yourself (which is why most PvP-centric players are not capable of functioning in top end PvE).
To me, the notion of having someone carry a two handed shield to protect some raged DPS is purely an extention of that PvE notion, and moving it to a PvP setting. Ranged DPS has someone looking after their defensive needs for them, and so are able to put more focus on the offensive ability. So far, this should all be fairly straight forward.
To me though, rather than an increase in damage or some such, the way I'd want to see that play out in game is that if a ranged DPS class has this protection, they are essentially given a new mechanic. Rather than needing to aim abilities from the characters perspective, they are given a fairly substantial range extention, and the ability to aim from a top down view. I am thinking along the lines of World of Tanks with their tank destroyers, though I have not played that game in a long time.
However, this would require these characters to be on high ground of some form (hill, castle wall etc), and the game should make it difficult for them to get set up somewhere else should they try and move.
The amount of gameplay variety this would open up in PvP is massive, both for the attacking and the defending side.
This is a lot less crazy than dual-shield
Jeff and Steven both seem to have an aversion to this - and that's fine. If any class could support a unique, conceptual weapon (or weapon-slash-shield), it's a class like Guardian, which will be our Tank/Tank class-build. But it's their game to make, and ours to enjoy.
Maybe someday we can at least get a *skin* for such a concept; Yours truly would happily support and buy such a thing, as Tank/Tank seems like it'd be the perfect concept and context in which to have something like and IRL 'duelling shield'. In the meantime though, the absence of such an element won't stop me from enjoying the game.
/Support, in the case Intrepid is ever looking for a class-specific item to make and to keep available through the cash shop.
Yeah man I am absolutely down for it being used for specific designs in mind, and I like the suggested uses you could get out of it. I by no means want to make it broken or lame. Its a fun weapon that the devs can go wild with exploring options that fit it if they wish to.
Appreciate the historical knowledge and that is quite interesting to hear. People have to realize something else as well, this would not be the first game with a "2h shield" implemented. Runescape has one and League of Legends has Braum (though he does more punching than slamming but he still uses two hands for many of his moves.) to name a few.
hm... I mean yeah a skin could be ok, but if they say no and call it "silly" like the dual wielding shields then I doubt a skin would ever appear anyway. Anyway I would take what they can give lol. All I am saying is I would probably be more likely to try and play a tank if there were 2h shields as I love the aesthetics you would get with that. A monster of an orc hulking around with a giant slab of metal. It's so freakin cool just thinkin of it.
But why?
The idea doesn't really make sense to me, as in i understand why people would use 2h swords but do you really ever need a shield so big that it requires you to use 2 hands? It also sounds like a really vulnerable way to fight. You would only need to dodge the first shield strike and boom you are wide open to attacks.
The idea is that the person with the two handed shield is primarily focused on protecting others so they can perform a specific role in a large scale battle. There is historical precedent of people doing this in battle, and the notion of two handed shields can simply be looked at as a translation of that role on an actual battlefield in to something that fits in to an MMO.
So making the 1h and shield disappear into juju magic so that you can summon a big shield to hold is more believable than just having a big shield to hold?
Single grip provides a solid shield punch (misrepresented by shield bashes in most MMOs). You effectively attack with the shield edge with the whole half edge being longer than the hand that holds it.
Laced grip gives stability but the shield punch (misrepresented as a shield bash by most MMOs) can't extend longer than your arm, because, your grip can't be rotated and the shield can't travel further than your hand. You can't form Shield Walls and shield Castles with laced grip like you can with single grip.
A two handed shield can only be gripped with a single grip and not a laced grip. It means it would be less stable and very limited in use - you can't effectively punch with it, it would be longer than your arm but the weight would be difficult to hold in a central grip. You would only have one means of defence, thus, any opponent would make you throw the shield left and right. Whichever side you throw the shield, the opponent will kill you from the opposite side.
To summarise, the reason these shields were not widespread or used in anything less than sieges, is because, in a siege you are stationary and only fighting the front, either higher or flatter, depending on where arrows are coming from, and you won't be attacked by opponents with two weapons unless there is a sally.
I'm still opposed to the notion.
Edit: Spelling mistakes. (Dyslexia and fast paced typing don't mix lol).
This is why I think they should have it in the game though.
It needs to be something only used in large scale PvP - sieges and some GvG wars and such.
They shouldn't be wide spread in Ashes. It should not be a build you ever see outside of such PvP events, but it should be there so that organized guilds and alliances can make use of things that are specific and unique to that scale of PvP.
A two handed shield would be rather slim because of the weight involved. You wouldn't be able to cover more than one other person, if that at all. I'm not too clued on the siege designs yet. I wouldn't be against them in sieges.
With a shield for this kind of thing, all you are trying to protect against would be long range projectile attacks. A shield for this purpose could be made of a wodden frame with cloth and leather. You also don't need to protect two others standing up, but rather protect them in a crouching position.
While you no doubt know this, I feel it important to point out to others here that the point of these shields wouldn't be to go in to melee range of an enemy. At that range, you would be better off with no shield than you would with one that large.
The point of bringing up the fact that there are similar (though not exactly the same) things in a historical context was in an effort to point out that a two handed shield makes as much or more sense as a two handed sword - assuming you are using historical accuracy as a marker.
The point of a two handed shield would not be to emulate people with such shields and the function they perform, but rather the point would be to translate it to something that makes sense and works in an MMO from a perspective of itemization and balance, while still being able to offer an interewsting game play mechanic.
The notion of a battery of mages and archers off to the side of large scale conflict, able to function in a manner similar to the archers from the battle of the bastards in GoT - to me, that sounds like a gameplay mechanic that is worth trying to include in a game like Ashes.
The problem is, it is a powerful thing to bring to bear on a battlefield. The game couldn't just allow one player to function in that capacity by themselves. This is why I think the notion of requiring a support player to allow two others to perform this task (meaning that one character is actually using up 1.5 players) is a form of balance. While there are other ways of doing this, it fits in amn near perfectly well with the concept of a two handed shield.
That is why I went from originally thinking the idea of dual shields and two handed shields was just stupid (even before Steven commented on them) to thinking that two handed shields could have a place in the game, if done right.
If we take Agincourt as a prime example. The Longbowmen used stakes to prevent frontal assaults by French Cavalry. The Men At Arms fought on foot and used laced shields. The Longbowmen outranged the French crossbow men and decimated the French cavalry. The two handed swordsmen and Halberds held the front ranks in the English Army and the Men At Arms held against the French Infantry. Rain compounded the battlefield and corpses prevented cohesive assaults, and, the French were massacred.
If we take the siege of Jerusalem into account. The two handed shields protected Saladin's Forces while they prepared Siege Towers. The two handed shields were then hammered on the front of the siege towers. The siege towers were destroyed by defensive catapults and burning oil. It surmounted to Saladin taking Jerusalem under a peace treaty which allowed all souls to leave Jerusalem intact despite whether they had fought or hidden.
The Roman Army used Scutum Shields (Smaller Tower Shields with central grip) and the Roman Skirmishers used Round Shields (Central grip). The Scutum Shields were used to form Testudos (Mobile Shield Castle) and the Round Shields were used to form Shield Walls (Javelins were thrown from behind the Shield Walls). However, the Shield Wall tactic used by the Skirmishers was rarer than the spread formations. It only came into play against massed Enemy Slingers.
I would see the two handed shield (If it is in Ashes) to be a tower shield, a full tower shield. Taller than the Scutum and as wide as Saladin's Shields (Covers two men). It is after all, a video game and does not need to follow real life in terms of kinetics, merely in terms of functionality. It could also be a summoned skill used by summoners but my post is already rather long. I've written it slower to reduce my need to edit for spelling lol.
No man I appreciate the info dump. With this information in mind we can clearly tell that the 2h shield would mostly be used for siege or otherwise larger battles or raids to protect the feeble ranged damage dealers from incoming attacks and can even serve as backline scouts to avoid pincer or sneak attacks. Let us not forget that there will be weapon swapping in Ashes of Creation, opening the way for all sorts of interesting builds to expand upon this "Rearguard" role. Perhaps the dps could form a cycle where half defend while the other half fire off their cooldown-limited attacks, then they swap out who defends and who attacks in a very similar fashion to a firing line yet with greater defense.
More defense by way of larger surface area I would imagine.
Maybe with all of the extra space a 2h shield would take up, you could fit a small apiary on the shield. Then you would have to like it.
Come to think of it... that would actually make it more effective.
I jest of course.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Large immobile shields to protect crossbowmen in a siege would offer little protection against a grenade thrown behind them, which is, more or less, what AoE spells are. As Noaami pointed out, they're unidirectional and unwieldy in melee combat.
Mobile 2h shields may not have been a thing on battlefields of our past, but that shouldn't prevent them to arise in a fantasy world. The question is: what role would have they been design for? Leading the front in the corridors of castles or dungeons? Protecting squishier companions while still being very mobile?
Real limitation factors such as getting tired wielding something as weighty or the short melee range they would provide may not be implemented, and the simple annoyance of carrying them all the time or their encumbrance are irrelevant because this is a game. We can't call the lack of realism for immersion on these while ignoring other things such has the time to put on armour, summoning a mount out of no where, running all the time, etc.
As to why using a 2h shield instead of a normal one + a weapon it's a simple question on how is balanced the offence vs defence (or additional utility).
I explained the uses of the shields in the past but even I do not consider those tactics viable in a game. The dynamics are too complex to reiterate in an RPG style. You can replicate it in RTS more easily. I've been told on discord that Magic doesn't exist in Ashes of Creation. I've also seen the skill rosters and Magic does exist.
I do not see how the two handed shield would be effective at all with Magic involved, I merely gave options for the use of a 2 handed shield in terms of fantasy. We could go as far to say, no armour of defensive components can be effective against Magic, but, the game does not revolve around realism or Magic wouldn't even exist.
There is a natural inclination to state that fantasy aspects should enable something, but there is an equal inclination to state fantasy shouldn't be absurd. It depends on the implementation and it depends on the effects. A two handed shield can deflect arrows. Nothing can deflect a meteor.
I dont see how that is relevant in any way.
Edit: I had to check the wiki but a Brood Warden (Summoner/Tank) could convert the ethereal wall into a two handed mobile tower shield. Its not a complex matter but it depends on the Devs as to what changes are made and what augments are available.
But it's not completely insane, not the way dual shields would be. And we do have fictional portrayals of shield-only combat. Captain America (who you should guess I'm a fan of, given my avatar and sig) is probably the most popular example, but I am also reminded of Amaya from the excellent Netflix series The Dragon Prince. Although she is a standard sword-and-shield combatant, there are a couple of fights where she effectively uses the shield on its own, such as in this clip:
If you just take that idea and increase the size of the shield so that it requires two hands, I can see a plausible combat style. That being said, I don't see that the game is going to be improved by including such an option. If you want to use a shield, use a shield. If you want a two-handed defensive weapon, use a staff. You don't need to add something silly.
The issue relates to defensive or offensive propositions. Some don't want to be offensive with the weapon, merely use it in defence. It can be used in either direction but the size and scope differs between offensive and defensive functionalities.
Edit: Some MMOs have bubble shields. If bubble shields are in Ashes then two handed shields won't be required at all.
Well you are forgetting two important details that can be used to alleviate this "issue". First we have the weapon skills talent system. This could have talents that allow you to specialize for defending against magical attacks by infusing your own magic to reinforce the shield you hold.
The second form of this would be the item itself and what bonuses are on it. What if I take the materials from a blast-resistant monster or material and craft the shield? What if I enchant the shield to dampen the damage of magical attacks?
With these as a baseline you can easily explain why a 2h shield can help stave off magical attacks.
As explained above you could have the weapon skills tree "specialize" in different areas. perhaps you want to defend others from projectiles and aoes, you go one way. You want to deal damage and bash the crap out of your foes? Go down this path. Because of the freedom that is the goal of these different talent systems I believe this could be achieved and fill a new and interesting role on the battlefield.
I understand if people wouldn't like to use the weapon, and that's fine. But I am not here telling you that you cannot use a healing staff because I dont like it being accessible as a weapon swap option. Because I hope you guys understand that almost every pvper in the game will be hardswapping to a healer staff to heal up during fights due to the weapon-swapping mechanic. Now I know these are not confirmed but I can quite easily see them being tossed in with the rest of the different types of staffs.
If we are given a 2 handed shield, with a skill tree attached, then it is not a siege weapon and would be rather limited in the usage. I've explained earlier that a 'Shield Bash' is the wrong terminology and would effectively do little damage. It might off-balance an opponent but you would be open to counterattacks. Shield Punches use the excess width of the shield to punch at range.
It's not a weapon I would use and it's not a weapon I believe should be a viable all round weapon. You can kill with a spiked shield, you can kill with a barbed shield but you would be matched by a One Handed Shield. You can't shield punch Heavy Armour, you can't barb Heavy Armour and you can't pierce Heavy Armour. Strong Leather can also resist barbs, spikes and shield bashes.
Your target pool would be very narrow. Two handed shield is a niche weapon used in tournaments much like the two handed sword tournaments ran alongside Jousts.
You wouldn't take a Joust Spear and request the use of it in game. The same parameters exist for two handed shield. I saw a use for it in sieges, I've seen a use for it through augments, but the skill tree would become one or two active skills with a ton of passives. Passives are all well and good but active abilities are required to make use of passives.
Edit: Spelling mistakes.