All the supportive historic information so far has been for their use in non-lethal duels. I just don't see a reason why, when your fighting for your life, you wouldn't want a weapon of some sort. Whether that be a spear, Lance, dagger, sword. I would say if you are really against using weapons, only equip the shield.
Here is some modern re-en actors demonstrating tower shield tactics.
All the supportive historic information so far has been for their use in non-lethal duels. I just don't see a reason why, when your fighting for your life, you wouldn't want a weapon of some sort. Whether that be a spear, Lance, dagger, sword. I would say if you are really against using weapons, only equip the shield.
Here is some modern re-en actors demonstrating tower shield tactics.
That seems like a silly thing to suggest. I am not role-playing, I am asking for a specific type of weapon that has already had a few uses laid out by multiple posters. We are not going for historical accuracy, it's just cool that there is history of their use even in our mundane world. The meaning behind this is that its not too farfetched for such a thing to be wielded by roided out god-crafted humanoids in a world of might and magic.
All the supportive historic information so far has been for their use in non-lethal duels. I just don't see a reason why, when your fighting for your life, you wouldn't want a weapon of some sort.
I mean, I agree with you on this point, but that is why I have always suggested that these shields should be used in a build that is only ever viable as a part of a larger whole.
Look at a tank, as an example (the vehicle, not the class). You have the driver, he's armored and such, but he has no control at all over any weapon. What he does have though, is someone to do that for him.
If you look at a two handed shield user as the defensive aspect of a three player team that includes two ranges DPS, then this specific point is kind of nullified.
The only thing from there is ensuring the game makes it viable for this team of three to work this closely - which is why I suggested the mechanic similar to tank destroyers from World of Tanks.
Is it just me or do the manuscripts posted by @Neurath earlier in the thread look Deviant Art AF. I feel like someone could make quite the commission making realistic look manuscripts for all sorts of anime ass fighting styles.
Not saying they are fake. I am sure historically every weapon imaginable was attempted. Just saying... I could see people being willing to pay for a "On the principles of gunblade dueling" manuscript.
The pictures are from Mordhau Library, but even Mordau didn't put the two handed shield into the game. Mordau is a historical replica in most of the components. I don't have old manuscripts in my house and I am a poor writer with no money to tempt my Artists to create anything other than my book covers lol.
Cousin, as someone who will no life this game more than 99% of other people on planet Earth and someone who will hopefully one day be considered one of the best Tanks to step foot on Verra, I am going to have to disagree passionately on this idea. I think it is a really silly idea to carry around a shield so big that it takes both my hands. I want to block your hits with my left hand and bash your skull with my right. The only person who can successfully dual wield a shield is our other cousin Tyrion Lannister. Even then, if he had the opportunity (or body size) to pick up a battle axe, he would have!
I respect your idea. I really do. It would be a unique approach to the tank class but I can't see passed how bad the skills would be while going this route. Shield bash, shield slam, shield toss, shield smash, shield reflect, shield punch, shield my mind from these shield abilities all over my bars!
The skills would only "seem" bad if implemented poorly and that's where the creativity of the developer comes in. You seem to have no issue with 2h greatswords yet such things were mostly ceremonial. These are "fine" in most fantasy settings because its cool to have a big sword. What's wrong with adding another cool weapon to choose from? That's my point with 2h shields.
I feel that this just comes down to personal preference and that's fine, but I would ask that you not try to stop other's ideas unless it actually constrains or affects your preferences.
Or are you saying that adding a 2h shield would make the other weapons worse? And if so, how?
2 handed swords were mostly ceremonial? WHAT!? lol. Please give me some references.
2 handed swords became popular in the 14th and 15th centuries and you were looked upon as someone stronger than the typical mercenary (sometimes paid more for your efforts). The idea behind 2 handed swords was to counter longer weapons like the polearm or halberd. They had a need for something to compete while on horseback that still held up its power while on foot. I mean come on......your statement is really silly.
2 handed shields? Not practical and not cool. Leave it up to the developers to come up with "cool" skills and names for someone using only a shield? lol. Come on man. NOT EVEN CAPTAIN AMERICA used only his shield. He eventually picked up Mjolnir hahaha
@Neurath Those pictures you shared are great. At first, I would imagine this was drawn up to explain to some king somewhere "Sire! Please, I urge you to see my new invention!". That dude was definitely beheaded.
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Cousin, as someone who will no life this game more than 99% of other people on planet Earth and someone who will hopefully one day be considered one of the best Tanks to step foot on Verra, I am going to have to disagree passionately on this idea. I think it is a really silly idea to carry around a shield so big that it takes both my hands. I want to block your hits with my left hand and bash your skull with my right. The only person who can successfully dual wield a shield is our other cousin Tyrion Lannister. Even then, if he had the opportunity (or body size) to pick up a battle axe, he would have!
I respect your idea. I really do. It would be a unique approach to the tank class but I can't see passed how bad the skills would be while going this route. Shield bash, shield slam, shield toss, shield smash, shield reflect, shield punch, shield my mind from these shield abilities all over my bars!
The skills would only "seem" bad if implemented poorly and that's where the creativity of the developer comes in. You seem to have no issue with 2h greatswords yet such things were mostly ceremonial. These are "fine" in most fantasy settings because its cool to have a big sword. What's wrong with adding another cool weapon to choose from? That's my point with 2h shields.
I feel that this just comes down to personal preference and that's fine, but I would ask that you not try to stop other's ideas unless it actually constrains or affects your preferences.
Or are you saying that adding a 2h shield would make the other weapons worse? And if so, how?
2 handed swords were mostly ceremonial? WHAT!? lol. Please give me some references.
2 handed swords became popular in the 14th and 15th centuries and you were looked upon as someone stronger than the typical mercenary (sometimes paid more for your efforts). The idea behind 2 handed swords was to counter longer weapons like the polearm or halberd. They had a need for something to compete while on horseback that still held up its power while on foot. I mean come on......your statement is really silly.
Agreed, there is some real ignorance of history here.
The Landsknechts were German-speaking mercenaries in the 13-15th centuries in Europe. These were not ceremonial warriors, these were gritty, down in the dirt, kill people for money soldiers. The nastiest ones were the Doppelsöldner, or "double-pay men", so-called because these were the front line guys who had the highest casualty rate but got paid double for the risk. Those guys were famous for their use of the Zweihänder (a two-handed sword).
Two-handed swords, during the time when they were employed on the battlefield, were the opposite of ceremonial weapons. They were the weapons of the real "do or die" front line guys. Similarly, the Scottish Claymore (the later version at least) was a massive two-handed sword that saw real use on the field of battle, as recently as the Battle of Killiecrankie in 1689.
It is true that by the late 17th, early 18th century the two-handed sword was obsolete as a weapon of war. It really only enjoyed maybe 2 centuries of real field use in Europe. After a time it was mostly used in duels and sporting events for knights. But there was a time when it was used by elite front line heavy troops in real war.
Responding to both of you, I called 2h swords mostly ceremonial because they were useless against anyone using armor. They were mostly used to show off status, execute others, or kill a random lightly armored person. If you want to "compare" them to 2h shields, I would say 2h shields provided more to historical battles than 2h swords.
This is personal preference of yours blinding you to the reality that 2h shields and the like are in a similar bracket to the 2h swords with one difference. It is widely accepted that 2h swords be in fantasy settings while 2h shields are an "oddity".
I am not here to suggest you don't get 2h swords, so I would ask that you not try to belittle the preference of others and our wish to have 2h shields.
I would be careful about getting too in depth on comparisons to history. Other than pointing out that there is some historical precedent (which has happened on both sides), there is no real point in going any further.
I mean, sure, the Landsknechts used two handed swords - but that was about 13% of them having one while in close formation with and against pikemen.
They were not weapons to be used in open combat - they were designed to be used in formation warfare.
The weapons they used were long, thin and light - they only weighted a little over 5kg. They more closely resembled polearms than swords as we think of them from MMO's.
To me though, this is enough to warrant them being included in gaming in general. They have been taken from this place in reality where they existed, and have been transformed in to what we think of them now. Just picture literally any two handed sword from WoW, and then click this link to see the real thing. There is a disconnect between what they actually were, and what they are in games now.
If you take that same disconnect and apply that to the shields that archers were hiding behind as early as 700BC (siege of Lachish), and you have basically the idea of two handed shields.
There are many different types of two handed swords. They were developed in many different ways by many very different cultures. And they were most definitely used in combat, in Europe and Asia.
There is some truth that two handed swords were used ceremonially. These were called Baring swords. And we still have many examples of them around in museums and parliaments in European countries. It is said that these swords date as far back as 1200 a.d. Truth or not idk. From what I've seen they were from around 1400's.
The Zweihänder which we were talking about were mostly used around the 1500 - 1600's. They were used against armored soldiers also. Due to the weight of the weapons they could be used as a bludgeon to essentially beat down the opponent, or obviously stab them in the weak parts. They are most deadly at longer distances, but can still be used in a clinch.
Links provided for reference. All that said, the grossly oversized versions you find in most video games these days are obviously fantastical. And honestly I hope we don't see anything like that in AoC.
Is it just me or do the manuscripts posted by @Neurath earlier in the thread look Deviant Art AF. I feel like someone could make quite the commission making realistic look manuscripts for all sorts of anime ass fighting styles.
Not saying they are fake. I am sure historically every weapon imaginable was attempted. Just saying... I could see people being willing to pay for a "On the principles of gunblade dueling" manuscript.
I found the first image hilarious!
Imagine it went something like:
"Hey, do you mind bending over for a moment? Don't mind me, I just need to position this hook on your neck."
And the second one:
"Aha! Got your foot!"
I'll need better examples to convince me that a 2H shield isn't a gimmick. It's too bulky to manoeuvre, too big to throw, too heavy to shield-bash with...
I feel like a 2H shield's defenses are barely better than 1H, and comes with heavy downsides.
So after watching this, do you still think that wielding a 2h shield wouldn't fit? This dude is lvl 10 slamming the ground so hard molten rock flies out and you guys are worried about 2h shields being "unwieldy"? He can throw out a chain and yoink an entire person to him.
Idk guys, that axe he's using is pretty massive in comparison to a normal 2h axe, maybe we should get rid of it?
I know this come's off as petty, but you understand how I can also see the argument against 2h shields as "silly" too right?
The tank has an invulnerability before or at level 10. I think there are issues with The Tank, but if those 10 skills are augmented all the way to level 50, and you only have 10 skills, then the skills make sense. I still don't think a two handed shield is a good move, then again, the tank throws weapons like a Jedi.
The tank has an invulnerability before or at level 10. I think there are issues with The Tank, but if those 10 skills are augmented all the way to level 50, and you only have 10 skills, then the skills make sense. I still don't think a two handed shield is a good move, then again, the tank throws weapons like a Jedi.
Yeah see they are taking even the martial classes in a magical/fantasy light before even going elemental. Making me think that all creatures on some level use magic or at least our characters do. If not, then the only other explanation is that they are so freakin strong that they are causing magic-like effects. Either way they are a form of physical enhancement, allowing for moves that would normally not be usable in a standard medieval setting.
Yeah, the combat updates might change the tank, but, the combat updates might not change the tank. The tank is the staple of PvP and PvE. Come level 10 you can't gank a tank because they'll pop invulnerabilities, knock you on your ass and kill you.
Comments
Here is some modern re-en actors demonstrating tower shield tactics.
That seems like a silly thing to suggest. I am not role-playing, I am asking for a specific type of weapon that has already had a few uses laid out by multiple posters. We are not going for historical accuracy, it's just cool that there is history of their use even in our mundane world. The meaning behind this is that its not too farfetched for such a thing to be wielded by roided out god-crafted humanoids in a world of might and magic.
I mean, I agree with you on this point, but that is why I have always suggested that these shields should be used in a build that is only ever viable as a part of a larger whole.
Look at a tank, as an example (the vehicle, not the class). You have the driver, he's armored and such, but he has no control at all over any weapon. What he does have though, is someone to do that for him.
If you look at a two handed shield user as the defensive aspect of a three player team that includes two ranges DPS, then this specific point is kind of nullified.
The only thing from there is ensuring the game makes it viable for this team of three to work this closely - which is why I suggested the mechanic similar to tank destroyers from World of Tanks.
Not saying they are fake. I am sure historically every weapon imaginable was attempted. Just saying... I could see people being willing to pay for a "On the principles of gunblade dueling" manuscript.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
2 handed swords were mostly ceremonial? WHAT!? lol. Please give me some references.
2 handed swords became popular in the 14th and 15th centuries and you were looked upon as someone stronger than the typical mercenary (sometimes paid more for your efforts). The idea behind 2 handed swords was to counter longer weapons like the polearm or halberd. They had a need for something to compete while on horseback that still held up its power while on foot. I mean come on......your statement is really silly.
2 handed shields? Not practical and not cool. Leave it up to the developers to come up with "cool" skills and names for someone using only a shield? lol. Come on man. NOT EVEN CAPTAIN AMERICA used only his shield. He eventually picked up Mjolnir hahaha
@Neurath Those pictures you shared are great. At first, I would imagine this was drawn up to explain to some king somewhere "Sire! Please, I urge you to see my new invention!". That dude was definitely beheaded.
Agreed, there is some real ignorance of history here.
The Landsknechts were German-speaking mercenaries in the 13-15th centuries in Europe. These were not ceremonial warriors, these were gritty, down in the dirt, kill people for money soldiers. The nastiest ones were the Doppelsöldner, or "double-pay men", so-called because these were the front line guys who had the highest casualty rate but got paid double for the risk. Those guys were famous for their use of the Zweihänder (a two-handed sword).
Two-handed swords, during the time when they were employed on the battlefield, were the opposite of ceremonial weapons. They were the weapons of the real "do or die" front line guys. Similarly, the Scottish Claymore (the later version at least) was a massive two-handed sword that saw real use on the field of battle, as recently as the Battle of Killiecrankie in 1689.
It is true that by the late 17th, early 18th century the two-handed sword was obsolete as a weapon of war. It really only enjoyed maybe 2 centuries of real field use in Europe. After a time it was mostly used in duels and sporting events for knights. But there was a time when it was used by elite front line heavy troops in real war.
This is personal preference of yours blinding you to the reality that 2h shields and the like are in a similar bracket to the 2h swords with one difference. It is widely accepted that 2h swords be in fantasy settings while 2h shields are an "oddity".
I am not here to suggest you don't get 2h swords, so I would ask that you not try to belittle the preference of others and our wish to have 2h shields.
I mean, sure, the Landsknechts used two handed swords - but that was about 13% of them having one while in close formation with and against pikemen.
They were not weapons to be used in open combat - they were designed to be used in formation warfare.
The weapons they used were long, thin and light - they only weighted a little over 5kg. They more closely resembled polearms than swords as we think of them from MMO's.
To me though, this is enough to warrant them being included in gaming in general. They have been taken from this place in reality where they existed, and have been transformed in to what we think of them now. Just picture literally any two handed sword from WoW, and then click this link to see the real thing. There is a disconnect between what they actually were, and what they are in games now.
If you take that same disconnect and apply that to the shields that archers were hiding behind as early as 700BC (siege of Lachish), and you have basically the idea of two handed shields.
There is some truth that two handed swords were used ceremonially. These were called Baring swords. And we still have many examples of them around in museums and parliaments in European countries. It is said that these swords date as far back as 1200 a.d. Truth or not idk. From what I've seen they were from around 1400's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bearing_sword
The Zweihänder which we were talking about were mostly used around the 1500 - 1600's. They were used against armored soldiers also. Due to the weight of the weapons they could be used as a bludgeon to essentially beat down the opponent, or obviously stab them in the weak parts. They are most deadly at longer distances, but can still be used in a clinch.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweihänder
Links provided for reference. All that said, the grossly oversized versions you find in most video games these days are obviously fantastical. And honestly I hope we don't see anything like that in AoC.
I found the first image hilarious!
Imagine it went something like:
"Hey, do you mind bending over for a moment? Don't mind me, I just need to position this hook on your neck."
And the second one:
"Aha! Got your foot!"
I'll need better examples to convince me that a 2H shield isn't a gimmick. It's too bulky to manoeuvre, too big to throw, too heavy to shield-bash with...
I feel like a 2H shield's defenses are barely better than 1H, and comes with heavy downsides.
So after watching this, do you still think that wielding a 2h shield wouldn't fit? This dude is lvl 10 slamming the ground so hard molten rock flies out and you guys are worried about 2h shields being "unwieldy"? He can throw out a chain and yoink an entire person to him.
Idk guys, that axe he's using is pretty massive in comparison to a normal 2h axe, maybe we should get rid of it?
I know this come's off as petty, but you understand how I can also see the argument against 2h shields as "silly" too right?
Yeah see they are taking even the martial classes in a magical/fantasy light before even going elemental. Making me think that all creatures on some level use magic or at least our characters do. If not, then the only other explanation is that they are so freakin strong that they are causing magic-like effects. Either way they are a form of physical enhancement, allowing for moves that would normally not be usable in a standard medieval setting.