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A complementary leveling system beyond level cap?

Will this game have a secondary leveling system beyond the initial level cap?
I will give an example :
Bob reaches level cap and can now start leveling his ''Paragon'' level from 1 to 999. Very simple
The name Paragon i just made up, please just work with me here.
Paragon level will not be tied to progression and is a standalone leveling system from character level.
This has been done in other games and i would like to see it in Ashes of Creation too.

With the AOC experience being as open and dynamic as it is, this system would introduce even more reasons to keep playing in order to progress and show off your experience in the game after your character reached level cap. I will even throw in an additional idea of adding rewards to these ''Paragon levels'' To give more interest for players to level it up. but that's another story.

Has this ever been discussed?
How do you guys feel about it.
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Comments

  • MitchoManMitchoMan Member, Alpha Two
    Note i do not intend to promote this system as a replacement for expansions and character level cap increases. It's a ''complementary'' system as the title of this post states.
  • I would prefer that they never raise the level cap at all. Raising level cap causes issues with power creep, balancing, and eventually stat squishes.

    That said, AoC will have multiple other areas of advancement involved, guild system, religion systems. I'm not an expert on all this stuff but you can read through the wiki and learn what we know so far.
  • DreohDreoh Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Frostshot wrote: »
    I would prefer that they never raise the level cap at all. Raising level cap causes issues with power creep, balancing, and eventually stat squishes.

    That said, AoC will have multiple other areas of advancement involved, guild system, religion systems. I'm not an expert on all this stuff but you can read through the wiki and learn what we know so far.

    This is another thing that makes GW2 my favourite MMO of all time. They only add horizontal advancement when expansions or updates come. They've only increased gear power/tiers once and that was with Ascended gear, and ascended gear is only as strong as the previously existing Legendary gear.

    I detest with a passion the constant push of better gear that games like WoW and others do. All the work you put in to polishing your stats is useless in a year when they add yet another tier of gear. It's completely ridiculous. Not to mention how in WoW gear rarity has become bloated and they hand out epics like candy, where in vanilla/classic an epic was an achievement.
  • MitchoManMitchoMan Member, Alpha Two
    Frostshot wrote: »
    I would prefer that they never raise the level cap at all. Raising level cap causes issues with power creep, balancing, and eventually stat squishes.

    That said, AoC will have multiple other areas of advancement involved, guild system, religion systems. I'm not an expert on all this stuff but you can read through the wiki and learn what we know so far.

    No, my idea is that it's not tied to progression. I should have said gear progression. That's what i meant
  • MitchoManMitchoMan Member, Alpha Two
    Dreoh wrote: »
    Frostshot wrote: »
    I would prefer that they never raise the level cap at all. Raising level cap causes issues with power creep, balancing, and eventually stat squishes.

    That said, AoC will have multiple other areas of advancement involved, guild system, religion systems. I'm not an expert on all this stuff but you can read through the wiki and learn what we know so far.

    This is another thing that makes GW2 my favourite MMO of all time. They only add horizontal advancement when expansions or updates come. They've only increased gear power/tiers once and that was with Ascended gear, and ascended gear is only as strong as the previously existing Legendary gear.

    I detest with a passion the constant push of better gear that games like WoW and others do. All the work you put in to polishing your stats is useless in a year when they add yet another tier of gear. It's completely ridiculous. Not to mention how in WoW gear rarity has become bloated and they hand out epics like candy, where in vanilla/classic an epic was an achievement.

    The system i explained is similair to how GW2 did it. And those levels werent tied to gear or anything either.
  • I think there will already be a lot of horizontal progression in the game without the need for a secondary character level. I recommend checking out the artisan system, node progression, mayoral system, and legendary flying mounts, if you're worried about showing off your epeen.
  • MitchoManMitchoMan Member, Alpha Two
    Alright appreciate the helpfulness in trying to introduce me to this game and explain things but i really already know pretty much everything. I'm new to the forums but not the game xD
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Welcome to the forums.
    There was a recent thread about this.

    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/266164#Comment_266164

    Part way down I linked a video with time stamp as to Intrepid's answer.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • Sounds like the Champion system from ESO, that was recently nerfed into the ground. I wouldn't mind if there was a tree tied into your characters religion that gave you benefits, but I worry about adding post-cap trees because the idea of a nerf after thousands of hours of work is mind numbing.
  • TalentsTalents Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    There is nothing like this planned for Ashes. Once you hit 50, you're max level until they raise the level cap.
    nI17Ea4.png
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    As something of a top end player in most games I play, I am not a fan of this idea.

    The point of having a cap to available progression is to keep players somewhat close together in over all power.

    All this system would do is mean that players with more time not only had better gear, but had higher paragon level than someone with lower levels. This just increases the ceiling for getting in to to end content effectively (with top end content in Ashes including sieges,as well as PvEactivities).

    I am a huge fan of always having some form of worthwhile character progression available to every player, but I don't consider progression via pure grind to be a good way to do this
  • WhitneyHagasMatsumotoWhitneyHagasMatsumoto Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    It would be nice if, instead of creating supplementary level elements as a game system, there was a mechanism that could reflect the player's own knowledge and experience!

    And I keep whispering, "Please introduce that into crafting." ......lol
  • VolgaireVolgaire Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I feel like I would quickly start disliking this Paragon progression, I hope Ashes will be a game engaging enough where I won't have to resort to grinding some Paragon level for rewards instead of focusing on enjoying all the other content the has to offer.
  • horizontal progression is always better than vertical progression
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Kionashi wrote: »
    horizontal progression is always better than vertical progression

    I 100% disagree with this statement.

    Horizontal progression isn't progression, it is picking up new things. If horizontal progression were that great - or if Intrepid thought it were better than vertical progression - we would be able to level up all 10 archetypes as primaries.
  • arsnnarsnn Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited February 2021
    Well this topic revolves around 2 of the biggest issues that the genre faces.
    Firstly a diminishing player base, due to lack of progression and content in the late stage of the service.
    Secondly the widening powergap in the playerbase (even with diminishing returns) associated with infinite progression systems.

    Games like bdo only persist because of their plenty vertical progression grind systems, this game is glorified gear threadmill with nice t*ts. Games like GW2 with a lot of horizontal progression require a lot of added content in form of expansions and the living world thingy.

    Ashes will have to position themselves somewhere inbetween those extremes. A „secondary progression“ path , as you call it would be an easy way to handle it, but it’s a lazy solution that comes with problems.

    I‘d pref that they further explore the option of shared progression gated content, what they plan on doing with their node system.
    This approach essentially gates new content behind the progress of the players on the server.
    Everytime they reach a certain threshold that players worked towards, like node level 4, new content will infuse additional vertical progression that has diminishing returns once they hit the next roadblock to level 5.
    So that the progression curve is not straight up asymptotic, it rather follows a pattern of several asymptomatic bumps that keep the playerbase close together, but still allows for repeated rushes of progression. Unfortunately the nodes are limited in their scope, when they reach the max level.
    But this can also be done outside of the node system, for example with boses that gate entire dungeon systems for the server to explore. I think they hinted at that with their recent dev discussion "Boss difficulty-
    Do you enjoy "gatekeeper" bosses -".

    Optimally they would have a look at how the anime SAO did it with their tower that had like 100 layers. Ye... i know SAO... shit anime, i liked some of their ideas though.
    In this case how progress raiders/front line players were tasked with slaying the boss of each layer, so that the entirity of the server can access the next layer, with new mobs, ressources and a fresh area to explore.

    This allowed for an interesting dynamic where guilds did send, their best players to those frontline raids, and crafters and gatheres did their best to equip the players with the new stuff that they would get, from guilds that farmed the mobs of the new planes.
  • TheHiddenDaggerInnTheHiddenDaggerInn Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I'm really hoping so, religious, and guild stuff is fine, but as a player I would like something to work on myself. To me this is what made DAoC great was once you were level capped, getting your realm ranks through PvP could literally take years.

    Now what would be more interesting is taking a system like that and doing it for PvP, Crafting, and even Dungeon crawlers. So you get some kind of end game experience in whichever field you choose to progress, and maybe even make you choose which path you would like to continue.

    Offering maybe a special perk or ability to unlock, or extra stats something of meaning along with titles.
    TwitchTV Streamer: The Hidden Dagger Inn Saturday's PM Cst And
    Wednesday's at PM Cst
    7wg8px59ktyc.jpg


    https://www.youtube.com/@TheHiddenDaggerInn/featured
  • VirulentVirulent Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NO! I will not play this game if there is a paragon level type system.
  • n the lineage, the first class of the character and the second are uploaded. Making both classes extremely difficult to push to the limit.

    In addition, experience is lost with each death, both against npc and in wars against clans and alliances.

    And the latter makes the issue of leveling up go into nightmare mode.
  • djhifidjhifi Member
    edited February 2021
    Frostshot wrote: »
    I would prefer that they never raise the level cap at all. Raising level cap causes issues with power creep, balancing, and eventually stat squishes.

    That said, AoC will have multiple other areas of advancement involved, guild system, religion systems. I'm not an expert on all this stuff but you can read through the wiki and learn what we know so far.

    Vertical progression (for example: level cap increase, champion xp of some sort, gear item level increase, etc, etc) will ALWAYS be better than horizontal progression because you will get to a point where the game seems stalled and everyone will eventually burnout.

    Even if people say they won't, thats just an illusion.

    So definitely +1 here for vertical progression over horizontal.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    SWG boomed under horizontal progression and died when vertical progression replaced horizontal progression.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • CriminalCupcakeCriminalCupcake Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    You say you made up the name of paragon lvls as if you've never played Diablo, and i think that's a lie. We dont need bonus leveling. This isnt a Blizzard game.
  • DreohDreoh Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    djhifi wrote: »
    Frostshot wrote: »
    I would prefer that they never raise the level cap at all. Raising level cap causes issues with power creep, balancing, and eventually stat squishes.

    That said, AoC will have multiple other areas of advancement involved, guild system, religion systems. I'm not an expert on all this stuff but you can read through the wiki and learn what we know so far.

    Vertical progression (for example: level cap increase, champion xp of some sort, gear item level increase, etc, etc) will ALWAYS be better than horizontal progression because you will get to a point where the game seems stalled and everyone will eventually burnout.

    Even if people say they won't, thats just an illusion.

    So definitely +1 here for vertical progression over horizontal.

    That's definitely not true, and it's mighty presumptuous of you to put words into people's mouths.

    Tons of people play GW2 very consistently and it has no vertical progression. And that's even with not taking living world updates into consideration.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited March 2021
    Dreoh wrote: »
    Tons of people play GW2 very consistently and it has no vertical progression.
    No, GW2 does have vertical progression.

    The vertical progression the game does has is a lot less prevalent than it is in most other games, and there are systems in the game to disguise it even further, but the game does in fact have vertical progression.

    I mean, the game has 80 levels, that in itself is vertical progression. There are also multiple stages of gear upgrades to work for, which is the stock standard form of vertical progression in most games aside from gaining levels.

    It is fair to say that GW2 has less vertical progression than other games. I totally agree there. However, saying it has no vertical progression is as factually incorrect as saying vertical progression is always better than horizontal (it is usually better, but not always, imo).
  • DreohDreoh Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited March 2021
    Noaani wrote: »
    I mean, the game has 80 levels, that in itself is vertical progression. There are also multiple stages of gear upgrades to work for, which is the stock standard form of vertical progression in most games aside from gaining levels.

    That's extremely disingenuous to say and honestly it's outright ridiculous for you to make that point, by that logic every single game has vertical progression so this argument doesn't matter at all.

    This thread isn't about progression, it's about developers extending the end game power levels arbitrarily

    GW2 does not have vertical progression, the only time they ever did anything close was making ascended gear, which is only on par with the previously existing legendary gear.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited March 2021
    Dreoh wrote: »
    That's extremely disingenuous to say and honestly it's outright ridiculous for you to make that point, by that logic every single game has vertical progression so this argument doesn't matter at all.
    In terms of MMO's, as far as I am aware, yes they do.

    Both the comment that vertical progression is always better, and the comment that GW2 only has horizontal progression are incorrect - even if they are mostly true.

    You can't say that I am being disingenuous for pointing out that you are slightly wrong when you yourself are pointing out that someone else is slightly wrong.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    For Ashes specifically they have a sort of horizontal progression system in place already.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Religions
    Looks specifically at benefits, augments, and progression.

    This may not be the horizontal progression system you have in mind, but it is the horizontal progression system they plan on going with.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • DreohDreoh Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Dreoh wrote: »
    That's extremely disingenuous to say and honestly it's outright ridiculous for you to make that point, by that logic every single game has vertical progression so this argument doesn't matter at all.
    In terms of MMO's, as far as I am aware, yes they do.

    Both the comment that vertical progression is always better, and the comment that GW2 only has horizontal progression are incorrect - even if they are mostly true.

    You can't say that I am being disingenuous for pointing out that you are slightly wrong when you yourself are pointing out that someone else is slightly wrong.

    Except I'm not wrong? Literally other than Ascended gear there has been NO power or level cap increases. All new gear has remained on par with the gear released at launch day. You are absolutely making a bad faith argument here or are just not understanding what vertical progression is in this context.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Dreoh wrote: »
    You are absolutely making a bad faith argument here or are just not understanding what vertical progression is in this context.
    Not at all.

    I specifically said they have less vertical progression than other games, you are the one that said there is none, and then went on to name some.

    The comment that started all of this was you pointing out that someone else was wrong when they said vertical progression was always better. That poster was wrong, vertical progression is only *almost* always better.

    Likewise, GW2 doesn't have absolutely no vertical progression, it has *almost* no vertical progression.
  • OstaffOstaff Member, Alpha Two
    To me, there should never be level cap increases, only horizontal openings of new zones that require stats or a type of skill that were not previously added into any other zones which are needed in order to be raised in order to traverse that zone properly and these stats would have little if any impact on the other zone play.
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