An Alternative to the Family System and the Teleportation Problem

The Family System

I just want to start off by saying that, after watching today's live stream, I am really impressed by all the work that Intrepid Studios has accomplished, and that I am a huge believer in the vision of Ashes of Creation. Namely, the response to "How they would incentivize caravan defense." And Steven stated that there doesn't always have to be a system in place for players to defend a caravan. That sometimes, players will just do things for social interaction, future friendships, and alliances, defending friendly citizens of a node who are trying to help level it up, etc.

I think those types of developer reasonings are what will make Ashes of Creation such a successful and different MMO. That's why I want to bring up my concerns with the family system.

I have nothing against marriage in MMOs, however, I don't think families should be made for summoning privileges. As Steven has said before, a player's character is much more than just your adventuring class, and Ashes of Creation is creating a game for people who want to be able to spend their time, leveling OUTSIDE of their adventuring class, I assume a majority of people will still play the game as adventurers. Family creation for them will not be as important as being part of a guild or a node or even the current party they're in to finish an 8-man dungeon. And I think that is part of the reason why the family system, specifically, should not be the determinating factor of who can teleport to whom.

Now I believe the reasoning to have teleportation be a family thing, was because families could only have 8 people in them, preventing large groups of players to teleport to areas quickly and Zerg rushing their opponents. I think the reasoning behind the idea is good, but as heads of families can get married to other heads of families, the effective amount of people can be teleported, effectively, doubles. At the same time, I don't necessarily want to be "related" to someone to be able to teleport to them.

I fully agree with the team that the less fast travel there is, the more the community will thrive in an open world, and the more player interaction there will be. However, I also agree with the team's stance on limited teleportation, because sometimes having to walk to a very far away place to catch up with your friends sounds pretty monotonous. The teleportation system will of course have to be tested early on, and iterated on for the proper balance of player interaction and not making the game a chore.

BUT, I think the teleportation/summoning system can and could be implemented differently:

1. In World of Warcraft, The Burning Crusade, there were meeting stones next to dungeons, that two people had to use to summon the rest of the party. These "Landmark Stones" could come into existence whenever a new dungeon opens up or a new village is built in the world of Verra. This isn't my favorite idea, but it worked before and can work again. There can be long cooldowns for using the stones, that can be limited to a certain number of players within your guild or your node. OR everyone needs to attune to that stone first, in some form of ritual, and then the same people can summon each other back to that stone when necessary.

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2. An idea I like more, and which I've never seen in an MMO before, would be a crafted teleporting stone. It could be a late-game or an early-game, craftable, item that could be made by a specific profession and can be sold to other players. You can again, attune up to 8 players to that stone and then split it into 8 pieces amongst the players. Players can then perform some form of ritual, out of combat, to be able to summon to a specific person within that stone's attunement. The stone can, then or have some long cooldown, or both. If the summoning stone is breakable, it keeps that item in demand for crafters to resupply it. An added cooldown could also potentially solve some issues with spam teleportation.

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Conclusion
Unfortunately, I can't think of all the pros and cons of every possible system, so tell me what you think.

Do you like familial teleportation?
What are your thoughts on a craftable summoning stone (Idea #2)?
What other good ways can you implement teleportation without a familial system?

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Comments

Noaani

I'm not a fan of any of the three ideas presented.

Your two, or Intrepids.

To me, the only thing families should offer to assist in getting to each other faster is a movement speed buff, and everyone should have to physically walk to where they want to go in Verra.

Mowaby

I have only 1 problem with the family system. I think the summoned player should get a CD so they can't be summoned again after a few minutes. I think this will help avoid an abuse that will happen with the current rules.

Squeezy

Mowaby wrote: »

I have only 1 problem with the family system. I think the summoned player should get a CD so they can't be summoned again after a few minutes. I think this will help avoid an abuse that will happen with the current rules.

This is already planned to be implemented in the game.

Mowaby

Squeezy wrote: »

Mowaby wrote: »

I have only 1 problem with the family system. I think the summoned player should get a CD so they can't be summoned again after a few minutes. I think this will help avoid an abuse that will happen with the current rules.

This is already planned to be implemented in the game.

"Long duration cast (30 seconds to a minute) with an approximate 30 minute cooldown that slowly summons each of your family members to your location (up to eight members).[1][5] Players cannot be summoned in the following cases:
While in combat, if they are corrupted, or if they are engaged in an event, such as node wars, guild wars, sieges, arenas or participation in the caravan system.[6]
If they have mats, gatherables or certs in their inventory.[3]
This will be tested in Alpha-2.[4]"

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Family_summon

daveywavey

As I've said before, I don't like the Family idea at all. Feels too 'The Sims' for a high-fantasy MMORPG. If people want to be a "family", let them role-play it. Don't give them systems where they can get around a game's fundamental "No Fast Travel" policy.

maouw

I'd like to see some sort of group teleportation - just because high fantasy seems weird without it.

And I like how your craftable port stone plays to the economy - however, I think it's highly likely that someone will find a weird edge case (like meeting in an easy-access instanced area (lobbies? etc.) to attune, and then exiting the instance to tp). I would also want to put a cooldown on port stone use, but even then combining a port stone with family summoning (or other tp system) opens up the possibility of easy return trips, which seems fishy to me.
What I do like about the port stone idea is that it encourage players to get crafty and intentional with how they use a port stone - especially if port stones aren't easy to craft. But this will mean port stones will only be used in highly advantageous situations. I can already imagine a guild spreading out searching for caravans - and the moment one person finds a caravan, the whole guild tp's in.

The possibility of entire guilds/armies teleporting to one person (or a chain of people) isn't thrilling to me

Mowaby

maouw wrote: »

I'd like to see some sort of group teleportation - just because high fantasy seems weird without it.

And I like how your craftable port stone plays to the economy - however, I think it's highly likely that someone will find a weird edge case (like meeting in an easy-access instanced area (lobbies? etc.) to attune, and then exiting the instance to tp). I would also want to put a cooldown on port stone use, but even then combining a port stone with family summoning (or other tp system) opens up the possibility of easy return trips, which seems fishy to me.
What I do like about the port stone idea is that it encourage players to get crafty and intentional with how they use a port stone - especially if port stones aren't easy to craft. But this will mean port stones will only be used in highly advantageous situations. I can already imagine a guild spreading out searching for caravans - and the moment one person finds a caravan, the whole guild tp's in.

The possibility of entire guilds/armies teleporting to one person (or a chain of people) isn't thrilling to me

A lot of the items you will get in dungeon content will be materials so in this case the family summon would not work.

"Players cannot be summoned in the following cases:
While in combat, if they are corrupted, or if they are engaged in an event, such as node wars, guild wars, sieges, arenas or participation in the caravan system.[6]
If they have mats, gatherables or certs in their inventory.[3]"

maouw

Mowaby wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

I'd like to see some sort of group teleportation - just because high fantasy seems weird without it.

And I like how your craftable port stone plays to the economy - however, I think it's highly likely that someone will find a weird edge case (like meeting in an easy-access instanced area (lobbies? etc.) to attune, and then exiting the instance to tp). I would also want to put a cooldown on port stone use, but even then combining a port stone with family summoning (or other tp system) opens up the possibility of easy return trips, which seems fishy to me.
What I do like about the port stone idea is that it encourage players to get crafty and intentional with how they use a port stone - especially if port stones aren't easy to craft. But this will mean port stones will only be used in highly advantageous situations. I can already imagine a guild spreading out searching for caravans - and the moment one person finds a caravan, the whole guild tp's in.

The possibility of entire guilds/armies teleporting to one person (or a chain of people) isn't thrilling to me

A lot of the items you will get in dungeon content will be materials so in this case the family summon would not work.

"Players cannot be summoned in the following cases:
While in combat, if they are corrupted, or if they are engaged in an event, such as node wars, guild wars, sieges, arenas or participation in the caravan system.[6]
If they have mats, gatherables or certs in their inventory.[3]"

You'd need to put those restrictions on the port stone too.

I'd wager there are non-dungeon ways to break the game with return trips.

Mowaby

maouw wrote: »

Mowaby wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

I'd like to see some sort of group teleportation - just because high fantasy seems weird without it.

And I like how your craftable port stone plays to the economy - however, I think it's highly likely that someone will find a weird edge case (like meeting in an easy-access instanced area (lobbies? etc.) to attune, and then exiting the instance to tp). I would also want to put a cooldown on port stone use, but even then combining a port stone with family summoning (or other tp system) opens up the possibility of easy return trips, which seems fishy to me.
What I do like about the port stone idea is that it encourage players to get crafty and intentional with how they use a port stone - especially if port stones aren't easy to craft. But this will mean port stones will only be used in highly advantageous situations. I can already imagine a guild spreading out searching for caravans - and the moment one person finds a caravan, the whole guild tp's in.

The possibility of entire guilds/armies teleporting to one person (or a chain of people) isn't thrilling to me

A lot of the items you will get in dungeon content will be materials so in this case the family summon would not work.

"Players cannot be summoned in the following cases:
While in combat, if they are corrupted, or if they are engaged in an event, such as node wars, guild wars, sieges, arenas or participation in the caravan system.[6]
If they have mats, gatherables or certs in their inventory.[3]"

You'd need to put those restrictions on the port stone too.

I'd wager there are non-dungeon ways to break the game with return trips.

These dungeon stones are not likely to be in game and would have the same restrictions if they were.

Squeezy

maouw wrote: »

I'd like to see some sort of group teleportation - just because high fantasy seems weird without it.

And I like how your craftable port stone plays to the economy - however, I think it's highly likely that someone will find a weird edge case (like meeting in an easy-access instanced area (lobbies? etc.) to attune, and then exiting the instance to tp). I would also want to put a cooldown on port stone use, but even then combining a port stone with family summoning (or other tp system) opens up the possibility of easy return trips, which seems fishy to me.
What I do like about the port stone idea is that it encourage players to get crafty and intentional with how they use a port stone - especially if port stones aren't easy to craft. But this will mean port stones will only be used in highly advantageous situations. I can already imagine a guild spreading out searching for caravans - and the moment one person finds a caravan, the whole guild tp's in.

The possibility of entire guilds/armies teleporting to one person (or a chain of people) isn't thrilling to me

I didn’t specify because my post was getting way too long, but I want similar, if not the same, restrictions to the stones as the family summoning system. A guild wouldn’t be able to instantly teleport near a caravan because only 8 people can attune to one stone and then can’t attune to another one. This means that only 7 people can teleport to the other 1 person, and there can’t be a chain of teleportation.

bigepeen

Family summon is one of those 'convenience features' that players often desire, yet are detrimental to the game. It's similar to the group finder lobbies that teleport you to the dungeon. It reduces the need to socialize and make plans to meet up, while also making distance less meaningful.

Mowaby

bigepeen wrote: »

Family summon is one of those 'convenience features' that players often desire, yet are detrimental to the game. It's similar to the group finder lobbies that teleport you to the dungeon. It reduces the need to socialize and make plans to meet up, while also making distance less meaningful.

I agree but you still have to make it back with the loot.

Gizban

I see the Family tp function as a way to facilitate close friends and family to gather and play together.
They have already stated there will be requirements and checks before a TP can be used in order to prevent misuse or as a tool to avoid intended game mechanics.

I would like to see perhaps a little more restrictions on this. Perhaps requiring the players to find a spot that is conducive to teleporting energy, or having them go to the nearest shrine/Life Tree/TP circle in order for this to function. I would like to see a little more effort required of players to use this.

Bob is on the North coast of Verra.
Bob's friend Piotr (who is a member of his in-game Family) logs on.
Piotr is on the South coast of Verra.
Bob teleports to Piotr so they can play together. Without the Family TP function this travel time would have been prohibitive.

Squeezy

pyreal wrote: »

I see the Family tp function as a way to facilitate close friends and family to gather and play together.
They have already stated there will be requirements and checks before a TP can be used in order to prevent misuse or as a tool to avoid intended game mechanics.

I would like to see perhaps a little more restrictions on this. Perhaps requiring the players to find a spot that is conducive to teleporting energy, or having them go to the nearest shrine/Life Tree/TP circle in order for this to function. I would like to see a little more effort required of players to use this.

Bob is on the North coast of Verra.
Bob's friend Piotr (who is a member of his in-game Family) logs on.
Piotr is on the South coast of Verra.
Bob teleports to Piotr so they can play together. Without the Family TP function this travel time would have been prohibitive.

Right, I agree that limited teleportation is pretty decent in order for players to actually be able to do content. But my 2nd idea with the stone would make more restrictions on the travel AND not require you to be in a family to have to teleport. I don't want to be "related" to someone in order to teleport to them. And the teleportation stone would set a restriction by the players needing to either gather materials or spend gold on the teleportation stone. At the same time, in order to first be attuned to that stone, players would have to gather together and then be able to each other after they split up. Another restriction could be that after a player teleports, his/her stone would break.

akabear

For me, there was nothing was more infuriating in past games to take 10-30min to get the right makeup for a group together and organised in town to venture out, then travel 10-20min to the entrance to a dungeon, fight your way through spending a further 10-20min to get to the key spot deep within that dungeon and then a party member puts an apology in chat and stats they have to go now. With the party member gone the group is no longer capable to continue and all the party have to call it a day without even commencing what they setout to do.

When there was a summoning capability to fill the spot, from anyone that was available, then the experience was so much better.

If anything, I think the lack of fast travel and restricted summoning will leave ventures far from town, deep in dungeons, through longer group content, to be limited to a minority players.

maouw

akabear wrote: »

For me, there was nothing was more infuriating in past games to take 10-30min to get the right makeup for a group together and organised in town to venture out, then travel 10-20min to the entrance to a dungeon, fight your way through spending a further 10-20min to get to the key spot deep within that dungeon and then a party member puts an apology in chat and stats they have to go now. With the party member gone the group is no longer capable to continue and all the party have to call it a day without even commencing what they setout to do.

When there was a summoning capability to fill the spot, from anyone that was available, then the experience was so much better.

If anything, I think the lack of fast travel and restricted summoning will leave ventures far from town, deep in dungeons, through longer group content, to be limited to a minority players.

I know the frustration, but adding this feature dissolves commitment, group cohesion and the world's vastness. I really think this is one of the risks that you have to take in pursuit of the reward - and it makes it way more meaningful when a full party manages to complete the expedition some days, and not others.

@Squeezy the port stone would need to share cooldown with family summons, otherwise you summon family first and each family member is attuned to ~6 other people and that's a 48 person summon.

Also the wiki has me confused: family caps at 9 if someone gets married. What if other people in the family get married?

Squeezy

akabear wrote: »

For me, there was nothing was more infuriating in past games to take 10-30min to get the right makeup for a group together and organised in town to venture out, then travel 10-20min to the entrance to a dungeon, fight your way through spending a further 10-20min to get to the key spot deep within that dungeon and then a party member puts an apology in chat and stats they have to go now. With the party member gone the group is no longer capable to continue and all the party have to call it a day without even commencing what they setout to do.

When there was a summoning capability to fill the spot, from anyone that was available, then the experience was so much better.

If anything, I think the lack of fast travel and restricted summoning will leave ventures far from town, deep in dungeons, through longer group content, to be limited to a minority players.

Yes, but don't you think that would make the content more adventurous and dangerous that really do want to go out and conquer the far away environment? It would create rarity, and novel, in gear that would be otherwise too easy for everybody to obtain. Imagine, a group of adventurers is packing to go to some faraway dungeon that is 3 hours away, and everyone in town knows that the adventurers won't be back for a day or two. But, when they finally do come back from their journey, they will have exotic materials and even gear that maybe the rest of the town has never seen before. Now THAT would be interesting.

bigepeen

The lack of a family summon can definitely cause some inconvenience and frustration, but it can also cause emergent gameplay that would not otherwise happen if you could just easily teleport everyone directly to the dungeon.

For example, say that one of your guild members is trying to get to the dungeon you've agreed to meet up at, but she keeps on getting ganked by a few players from a guild you're at war with. This causes your guild to work together and kill the opposing guild members and save your friend. Then you all travel back to the dungeon together.

Now, imagine that family summon exists. What would happen? You press the EZ summon button and everyone is magically teleported to the beginning of the dungeon. Sure, this is convenient, but no emergent gameplay occurs. Additionally, the world is way more empty, because it's just too inefficient to not use the family summoning system, so almost everyone is just teleporting to dungeons like a lobby-based game. Also, every player is so used to EZ summoning to travel instantly, that many just stop playing until the cooldown is expired so their friend can teleport them to the next dungeon, so that they never have to spend much time in the open world again.

TLDR: While family summon is definitely convenient for players, it is one of those game design decisions that causes the current state of almost all current mmorpgs. It'll be a mistake that reduces the significance of distance with almost everyone teleporting around, and shifts the game towards a lobby-based game from an open world mmorpg.

Squeezy

maouw wrote: »

akabear wrote: »

For me, there was nothing was more infuriating in past games to take 10-30min to get the right makeup for a group together and organised in town to venture out, then travel 10-20min to the entrance to a dungeon, fight your way through spending a further 10-20min to get to the key spot deep within that dungeon and then a party member puts an apology in chat and stats they have to go now. With the party member gone the group is no longer capable to continue and all the party have to call it a day without even commencing what they setout to do.

When there was a summoning capability to fill the spot, from anyone that was available, then the experience was so much better.

If anything, I think the lack of fast travel and restricted summoning will leave ventures far from town, deep in dungeons, through longer group content, to be limited to a minority players.

I know the frustration, but adding this feature dissolves commitment, group cohesion and the world's vastness. I really think this is one of the risks that you have to take in pursuit of the reward - and it makes it way more meaningful when a full party manages to complete the expedition some days, and not others.

@Squeezy the port stone would need to share cooldown with family summons, otherwise you summon family first and each family member is attuned to ~6 other people and that's a 48 person summon.

Also the wiki has me confused: family caps at 9 if someone gets married. What if other people in the family get married?

Let me be clear, I want the teleportation stone INSTEAD of the family summoning system. Not both of them together.

Noaani

akabear wrote: »

For me, there was nothing was more infuriating in past games to take 10-30min to get the right makeup for a group together and organised in town to venture out, then travel 10-20min to the entrance to a dungeon, fight your way through spending a further 10-20min to get to the key spot deep within that dungeon and then a party member puts an apology in chat and stats they have to go now. With the party member gone the group is no longer capable to continue and all the party have to call it a day without even commencing what they setout to do.

When there was a summoning capability to fill the spot, from anyone that was available, then the experience was so much better.

If anything, I think the lack of fast travel and restricted summoning will leave ventures far from town, deep in dungeons, through longer group content, to be limited to a minority players.

A lack of systems to facilitate this kind of situation (which I agree is frustrating) simply encourages people to use their friends list properly.

If you are not in a guild that always has groups running, you will soon find people that play around the same time as you, that you have run successful groups with.

Not only that, but you willsoonget to know the players that are unreliable, and will simply exclude them from your groups.

You will also come to recognize groups leaders that always put together successful groups, and poor leaders that have groups often fail.

Basically, player reputation matters when forming a group without these conveniences, and player reputation mattering is a very good thing.

Rather than the issue being that of co convenience vs inconvenience, it can very easily be looked at as community being inportantvs not being important.

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