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An Alternative to the Family System and the Teleportation Problem

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Comments

  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited February 2021
    Squeezy wrote: »
    The Family System
    ...I think the reasoning behind the idea is good, but as heads of families can get married to other heads of families, the effective amount of people can be teleported, effectively, doubles.
    That's not what the wiki lists.

    Families are a means to relate up to nine characters.[1][2][3]
    Marriage increases family size by one to allow player housing permissions to be shared.[4]
    This size increase only applies if the family's head is married.[5]
    A character may only belong to one family at a time.[1]
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Families

    The spouse of the head of the family will increase the family size by 1 which means that the spouse cannot belong to another family. Thus, no chain summoning as described by Squeezy is possible. Note, the non head of family members can be married to players in other families. However, those partners will not be able to summon one another using the family summon system.

    Idea one was interesting. I have no opinion about whether it should be added.

    Squeezy said (with my comments added):
    2. An idea I like more, and which I've never seen in an MMO before, would be a crafted teleporting stone (replace teleporting stone with "family marker"). It could be a late-game or an early-game, craftable, item (family marker) that could be made by a specific profession and can be sold to other players. You can again, attune up to 8 players to that stone and then split it into 8 pieces amongst the players. Players can then perform some form of ritual, out of combat, to be able to summon to a specific person within that stone's attunement . The stone can, then or have some long cooldown, or both (all of this matches the current system for family summoning). If the summoning stone is breakable, it keeps that item in demand for crafters to resupply it (This is an marker for a cost to switching members that could easily be applied to the current system of costs for switching families). An added cooldown could also potentially solve some issues with spam teleportation (Cooldowns will be tested during Alpha 2. While there has not been a confirmation from IS, it seems apparent from the many lengthy threads on this topic that IS will test the cooldown for longer periods).

    You redefined family summoning to using a stone.
    Squeezy wrote: »
    At the same time, I don't necessarily want to be "related" to someone to be able to teleport to them.
    Apparently you just don't want to have to refer to your group of friends that you can teleport to you as your family.

    Personally, I think changing the concept of family summons to a group summoned by a stone is fine. It would probably be great for RPers. It would also probably be good to add an additional detail to the stone explaining why the stone carries can enter each others houses while others cannot since the current reason of being family would not apply.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    If you are organizing a group on the day, you are asking for a bad time.

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  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Atama wrote: »
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    I never noticed the alien in the background until now.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • SqueezySqueezy Member, Alpha Two
    [quote
    At the same time, I don't necessarily want to be "related" to someone to be able to teleport to them.
    [/quote]
    Apparently you just don't want to have to refer to your group of friends that you can teleport to you as your family.
    [/quote]

    It's not just not wanting to be in a family to teleport. Creating a teleporting stone would make it an Actual, object in-game, not just some overhead system that you can use. The stone creates a physical connection of teleportation to the in-game world. It also creates player agency, where players have to create stones, gather to attune to stones, and eventually buy new ones, once they use them.

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  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited February 2021
    Squeezy wrote: »
    Squeezy wrote: »
    Squeezy wrote: »
    [quote
    At the same time, I don't necessarily want to be "related" to someone to be able to teleport to them.
    Apparently you just don't want to have to refer to your group of friends that you can teleport to you as your family.

    It's not just not wanting to be in a family to teleport. Creating a teleporting stone would make it an Actual, object in-game, not just some overhead system that you can use. The stone creates a physical connection of teleportation to the in-game world. It also creates player agency, where players have to create stones, gather to attune to stones, and eventually buy new ones, once they use them.

    The functional purpose of the stone or family for summoning is the same. The family system creates an in game marker of who can teleport. Player agency exists fully as you described under the family system. Players can move between families with a cost that is currently unspecified but can be anything, including your exact proposed costs. The exact cost will be announced later and based on balance and Stevens goals. If you think it is best to have a cost per summon of buying new stones on each use, then the family summon could be adjusted to have an equivalent cost per summon to limit use if that is important to balancing the ability.

    There is no functional difference between the systems.

    The only differences are the name and the image of a stone in inventory vs a listing of family members.

    In fact, the systems can even exist simultaneously. Where family members can create family summoning stones that mimic your suggestion in every way and effectively add additional costs to summoning to limit overuse or to add money, material, or time sinks.
  • SqueezySqueezy Member, Alpha Two

    FuryBladeborne wrote: »
    Squeezy wrote: »
    Squeezy wrote: »
    Squeezy wrote: »
    [quote
    At the same time, I don't necessarily want to be "related" to someone to be able to teleport to them.
    Apparently you just don't want to have to refer to your group of friends that you can teleport to you as your family.

    It's not just not wanting to be in a family to teleport. Creating a teleporting stone would make it an Actual, object in-game, not just some overhead system that you can use. The stone creates a physical connection of teleportation to the in-game world. It also creates player agency, where players have to create stones, gather to attune to stones, and eventually buy new ones, once they use them.

    The functional purpose of the stone or family for summoning is the same. The family system creates an in game marker of who can teleport. Player agency exists fully as you described under the family system. Players can move between families with a cost equivalent to your proposed cost. If you want a cost per summon of buying new stones on each use then the family summon could be adjusted to have an equivalent cost per summon to limit use if that is important to balancing the ability.

    Any requirements to create a stone could be required to switch families or add new members to the family. There is no functional difference in systems.

    The only differences are the name and the image of a stone in inventory vs a listing of family members.

    While, I can agree that the costs can remain the same, for moving family members or whatnot, and I agree, your point stands that I don't want to have to be related to someone in order to get summoned by them. However, when the stones, break on every use whereas the family system has an arbitrary cooldown based on "balance". The stone usage can also have a cooldown, along with it breaking, but most importantly it's all physically corresponded in-game.
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  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I do want to point out that if the port stone is craftable, and port stones are valuable consumables - this will be another driver contributing to the life of the economy.

    In that regard, a port stone is better than a family system.
    On the other hand, the family system adds to the social constructs.

    The attitude toward group summoning will be different too. People will mostly preemptively plan how to use a port stone, versus a family summon which will mostly be used reactively (except the people trying to find a way to exploit family summoning).

    the fact that a single summon takes 5eva to happen is a good thing though.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited February 2021
    The family summoning system could be adjusted to include any costs. Perhaps that is a good idea to slow down its use.
    Squeezy wrote: »
    However, when the stones, break on every use whereas the family system has an arbitrary cooldown based on "balance". The stone usage can also have a cooldown, along with it breaking, but most importantly it's all physically corresponded in-game.

    Currently, the only cost at the time of summon is a cooldown. However, maintaining a family is required and maintaining a family has a cost.
    • There are costs associated with family creation and maintenance.[5]
    • Some costs are shared among the family members and other costs are specific to the family head.[5]
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Families

    Costs can be adjusted or moved around. Testing will be done and costs will be addressed. If a cost per summon needs to be added, then it can be brought up. The stone summoning and family system can exist at the same time as families could be the ones that can make a family summoning stone as an explanation for costs.

    Personally, I just see it as renaming the current system. Whether teleportation is marked as an in game stone or an in game family has very little impact on anything aside from perception. Which I only see as useful from an RP perspective.

  • MerekMerek Member
    You shouldn't be able to teleport at all, either have it or don't. No half-ass, "Well, you can if...." mechanics. Families should have more to offer than a TP party system.
  • SqueezySqueezy Member, Alpha Two
    FuryBladeborne wrote: »
    The family summoning system could be adjusted to include any costs. Perhaps that is a good idea to slow down its use.
    Squeezy wrote: »
    However, when the stones, break on every use whereas the family system has an arbitrary cooldown based on "balance". The stone usage can also have a cooldown, along with it breaking, but most importantly it's all physically corresponded in-game.

    Currently, the only cost at the time of summon is a cooldown. However, maintaining a family is required and maintaining a family has a cost.
    • There are costs associated with family creation and maintenance.[5]
    • Some costs are shared among the family members and other costs are specific to the family head.[5]
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Families

    Costs can be adjusted or moved around. Testing will be done and costs will be addressed. If a cost per summon needs to be added, then it can be brought up. The stone summoning and family system can exist at the same time as families could be the ones that can make a family summoning stone as an explanation for costs.

    Personally, I just see it as renaming the current system. Whether teleportation is marked as an in game stone or an in game family has very little impact on anything aside from perception. Which I only see as useful from an RP perspective.

    Lets agree to disagree then. Although overall, I do stand on the side no teleportation all together.
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  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    @Merek
    Family members share property. This includes access to mats grown on the property such as crops and storage. Additionally, family members can share the taxes on a piece of property.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Families

  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited February 2021
    Squeezy wrote: »
    Lets agree to disagree then. Although overall, I do stand on the side no teleportation all together.

    Ok, I agree. :smile: I like the teleportation idea because it helps to solve the problem of different people having different schedules in life and still being able to play together in a game where travel time matters. However, I am not totally against it being removed if its too much of a problem. I would prefer to wait and see during testing though.

    The cost per teleport idea is interesting. I've been thinking through what could be done with it.
    (This is not an exhaustive list of differences. I have only focused on those that seem mechanically or economically important)

    If a player gathers the mats to summon, how much time should the gathering require?
    • If the time spent is equal to the average time that normal travel would have taken instead of a summon, then the player has effectively moved the normal travel time in the future to the same amount of time now. Overall, the player does not acquire the time to do more by teleporting. This has implications for the overall server economy as well. i.e. Many players teleporting daily resulting in greater wealth gained impacts the server economy. Balancing overall time spent travelling / gathering works to mitigate this effect.
    • If the time spent to gather is more than average travel time, either teleportation will be used less than the current 1 use per day maximum target or generally used to travel only very great distances.
    • If time spent to gather is much shorter than average travel time, then the cost of gathering is effectively only for RP or possibly some mat or gold sinks.

    If players can buy the mats or teleportation stone or item, how much should that cost?
    • If the cost is very high, then only the wealthy players will use it and the system will be viewed as an additional advantage that wealthy players have over others.
    • If the cost is at all significant, then the system will still be viewed as an advantage of players that are wealthy enough over those that are not.
    • If the cost is too low, then the effect is that virtually no players are inhibited by the cost and the cost is only useful as a gold sink or mat sink if gold or mats pass through an NPC or taxes are collected in the process of payment.

    There is the question of who pays the cost.
    • If only the summoner needs to pay the cost each time, then in the case of gathering mats the summoner can effectively use the summoners playtime to cover the travel time of the summoned player(s). This could be helpful for groups where one player has more playtime than others.

    There is also the question of cost to create the summon item vs. what is gained by summoning.
    • If the cost to summon is balanced around low level content, then the cost will be insignificant at level cap.
    • Additionally, if the cost of the summon is balanced around endgame content then lower level players will generally not be able afford summons to play with friends earlier in the game. The current system is viable for all levels.
    • The cost to summon could be adjusted by character level if needed.
    • Summons are meant for group content. If the summon cost is too high, then the group content will not be worth doing for profit. This can limit the use of summons for raids, dungeons, caravans, etc. Depending on the cost of creation vs. profit gained, summoning could become only useful as a raiding or caravans only item.


  • BlackBronyBlackBrony Member, Alpha Two
    I guess if families are small then it would make sense.
    But if you make families large, like 8 people, then you only need 3 families for a 20 people raid. Yes, you still need 3 people to make it there, but if it well done you easily take those people who actually have plently of time and they're the responsibles for summoning.
    Some people might even have alts stationed at certain locations, and just summon members. No where does it says that you need to be max level for family.
  • MowabyMowaby Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    I guess if families are small then it would make sense.
    But if you make families large, like 8 people, then you only need 3 families for a 20 people raid. Yes, you still need 3 people to make it there, but if it well done you easily take those people who actually have plently of time and they're the responsibles for summoning.
    Some people might even have alts stationed at certain locations, and just summon members. No where does it says that you need to be max level for family.

    I think the summoned character should get a CD so they can't be summoned again for like 30 minutes - 1 hour. Other than that the family system is ok and it is meant to be a way to get a party of your close friends to content. After you get there you still have to make it home safe with any materials you might have gained in that time.
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mowaby wrote: »
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    I guess if families are small then it would make sense.
    But if you make families large, like 8 people, then you only need 3 families for a 20 people raid. Yes, you still need 3 people to make it there, but if it well done you easily take those people who actually have plently of time and they're the responsibles for summoning.
    Some people might even have alts stationed at certain locations, and just summon members. No where does it says that you need to be max level for family.

    I think the summoned character should get a CD so they can't be summoned again for like 30 minutes - 1 hour. Other than that the family system is ok and it is meant to be a way to get a party of your close friends to content. After you get there you still have to make it home safe with any materials you might have gained in that time.

    Agree but a little differently, perhaps the other way round, the summoning character not the summoned might be better placed to have a cool down.

    Perhaps the cool down related to the general buff time. ie if a buff round (if there is such a thing) lasts 20min, the so too the summons capability.

  • SqueezySqueezy Member, Alpha Two
    With all the comments polarized comments, we should honestly do a poll on if we want or dont want a summoning system all together.
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  • BlackBronyBlackBrony Member, Alpha Two
    Squeezy wrote: »
    With all the comments polarized comments, we should honestly do a poll on if we want or dont want a summoning system all together.

    I can't think of something that won't be used by guilds for unintended purposes.

    I was thinking about a follow while offline, but it's something that you need to set up. But that would require your character to move while offline.
    Maybe something along the lines of "shrinking your character" and you get transported, but if the other character dies, you also die, lose mats and death penalty.

    I mean, it's the only way I can think people would consider exploting it. Free Teleport, not matter how many restrictions you put, it's still free teleport.
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