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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Types of skill (WARNING - RANT)
Wandering Mist
Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
DISCLAIMER: I am writing this as my own personal opinion, not as a moderator or part of any group.
This has been something that has bothered me for a long time, and that is people's narrowminded view when it comes to skill. This comes up most often in the endless "tab vs action combat" debate but is my no means limited to it.
Here is the oxford dictionary definition of Skill - The ability to do something well.
Now that ability to do something can be anything, from reading to speaking to solving problems to doing acrobatics. In order to do something well you need skill. So with that in mind there are 2 main types of skill found in most games:
1. mechanical skill - the ability to push the correct buttons at the correct time
2. Problem solving skill - the ability to decide what to do in any given moment
Some games rely on one more than the other, for example a turn-based game like Chess requires more problem solving skill, whereas an RTS like StarCraft 2 requires more mechanical skill. That doesn't mean that StarCraft 2 requires more skill to play than Chess does, just a different kind of skill. If that wasn't the case then everyone would be a chess grandmaster after playing a handful of matches.
So please, let's move away from this ridiculous notion that just being able to press lots of buttons very quickly automatically equals high skill. IT DOESN'T!
Thanks for reading my little rant.
EDIT (12th March 21): I didn't intend for this to become another Tab Target vs Action Combat debate, so here's an example of what I'm talking about:
You have 2 classes, a Ranger and a Mage. Both classes deal the same dps, have the exact same stats and are both fully Tab Target. The Ranger needs to do 1 button press every second, whereas the Mage needs to do 1 button press every 2 seconds.
Does the Ranger require more skill to play than the Mage just because you have to press a button twice as much? I would argue no, neither one is harder than the other, they are just different playstyles.
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You have to know and understand each unit, their strengths and weaknesses, how they perform with and against other units, and how to optimally advance your base and tech alongside the skill required to accurately utilize this knowledge in real time. This is not to mention doing all of this while predicting and reacting to your opponents.
By blending both of these two categories together you get a game that is engaging, challenging and rewarding.
Not disagreeing with you or anything, just expanding on your post to help further explain to people what skill is.
Since I am one of the guys in the "AC vs TT" thread who did say AC requires more skill than TT. I would like to clarify my position and potentially ease your mind.
I only agree that AC requires more skill than TT if all other aspects of the combat system are the same. You can have variable complexity under both systems. There can be TT content and bosses that are harder than AC bosses and vice versa.
Assuming that the content is just as complex in a hypothetical system. The addition of aiming skills in AC is normally more difficult. Not to say that correctly selecting a target is not a skill with TT. It just seems like a skill that is mastered faster.
I would say they are both chess, but in one version of chess you have to toss the pieces from your chair to move, and the first square it touches is where it moves so long as the move is legal. If you are good at tossing a small peice of plastic in this case. You are playing the same game.
If one player is tossing their peices and the other is not, I would let the player tossing pick who is going first to reward them for their risk.
I do agree that quickly pressing skills is not automatically skill.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
Yes, SC2 does require knowledge and problem solving skill, but the big difference between SC2 and Chess is that in SC2, in some circumstances you can outplay your opponent using mechanical skill alone. There are many cases of a player putting together an army that is completely countered by their opponent but still wins
through better micro.
On the other hand, in Chess it doesn't matter how skilfully you pick up or place the pieces, it won't help you win the match. Because of this, the problem solving aspect of the game is infinitely more important than the mechanical skill.
Thanks for that, I understand what you mean, although don't agree completely. To me, both TT and AC are hard for different reasons.
- Tab Targeting is easier to attack with but harder to defend against.
- Action Combat is harder to attack with but easier to defend against.
That's very true and haven't thought about it that way.
Though I will say that the blend of both types of skill is preferable to just one of either in a game like AoC. Whether it be through TT, Action, True Hybrid or Separate Hybrid
I personally find it easier to attack with AC because i can swap targets easier and quicker. TT Makes my moves a little more delayed, might just be me though but AC is worlds easier for me in both attack and defense.
Here is the funny thing. My wife is very arthritic and does not do action combat well. We play an action combat MMO, PvP 1v1 I slay her. Now I take my wife to tab targeting game and my arthritic wife and I 1v1, its a 50% 50% draw most times. Both combat play styles require skill and she is proof of that and also why I am worried about the mix of both skill types in this game.
I am worried the tab targeting players no matter how good they are at playing, may end up not do as well in PvP just because of the mechanics of how these skills work. I really hope IS really finds a way to balance these skill types to make it fair.
I 100% agree with the OP, two different play styles both take skill. I just find tab targeting takes more thought, its more tactical.
Not sure how you drew that conclusion from that paragraph. If anything, going from a 100% win rate against someone to a 50% win rate suggests the opposite lol.
(I'm not arguing that tab target doesn't have skill. It values decision-making skill. I'm just saying that the example doesn't really make sense, as it could be that the combat is overly simplistic or too reliant on rng.)
Maybe I didnt make it clear in what I said above you clipped out. I do well in both. I have been playing competitive PvP since DAoC and in ranked PvP I often make leader boards. The fact she can win fighting me, shows she has skill. Only factor I beat her in twitch combat is her hands dont move as fast as mine.
I think the fight is this. Action combat and the skill spam these skills normally have, offer an advantage over tab targeting skills. To illustrate, its like this... action combat is like a gun. Gun vs Gun equal fight. Tag targeting skills are like a baseball bat. Bat vs Bat equal fight. Bat vs Gun not an equal fight. Both types of combat require skills.
Myself I backed this game because it was a tab targeting game. Im not a fan of this mixed combat style. Steve says he can balance this to make it equal, I will wait to see what he plans.
I'm not implying that you don't do well in PvP. May I know which tab target game she has a 50/50 win rate against you in though?
Bad analogy because they can be equalized by tab target skills literally not needing to be aimed, and action combat skills doing more damage (as Steven himself has said would be the case) as a reward for aim. Which is a skill by the way *nod to Wandering Mist*
Also, you couldn’t have possibly “backed this game because it was a tab target game” because it never was. It’s always been said, since Kickstarter, that it was going to feature a hybrid combat system in which both action and tab target combat styles will exist. And the action players want their side to be good, not just “tab target but you kinda aim”
Yes, tab is hard to defend against because you can't. You have no defensive option. You have to focus on your skills which is the same thing you would be doing in an action system but in an action system, you have an extra layer of skill where you have to aim and have an option of defense.
Tab targeting vs action/free aim are not different games, they are different player controllers and should be compared as such. You should not think about them like different games like chess vs starcraft.
You are comparing a controller the requires the user to click on their target once and have all their skills go towards that target vs a controller that has the user constantly aim each ability at the target. Which is harder?
If you strip them down so there is only one skill, which one is more challenging or takes more skill? If you do the opposite, find the most difficult tab game and change it to an action game, which version would require more skill?
Not saying that action doubles the skill requirement or anything, aiming is not that hard, just that it does ask more of the player.
For me, this is the frustrating thing about this argument. Action vs tab is a character controller. If you found action combat game repetitive, the combat would have also been repetitive if it was tab too.
What's your favorite tab game and would it magically become repetitive if was converted to an action game?
Whatever you like about tab games is not intrinsic to the targeting system so please ask for that instead of acting like the game will end up like your favorite tab game just because it uses tab. If you don't like aiming, cool, please say that, but please stop acting like the game will come with other features just because it uses a tab targeting system.
Reason it get repetitive is two fold.
1. Dodge becomes the most important skill. Not strafing or walking out of the way. Or planning smartly where to stand next. So combat starts to look like Super Mario over a fight with block and parry. Most action combat only avoidance is dodge. Like no other defense skill exists.
2. Reason is the skills. Short cool downs and normally lots of insta casts. So its more about the quickest order you can press skills as fast as you can to have the highest DPS. So you pick skills for what dumps DPS fastest over planning what skill will counter or work for that situation. Sure action combat does have skills that do that too but fastest DPS dump normally wins first. I played ESO for years and GW2 and a nomber of other MMOs with action combat and thats what most builds are made around. What order to spam DPS. ((yawn))
1. dodging doesn't have to be a part of an action system
2. skills don't need to be short cooldown and instant.
Sorry i misinterpreted this but this goes back to what i said with tab/action are player controllers. None of this is intrinsic to the system. This can also be implemented in a tab system.
If that is what you don't want, then say that. I also don't want dodges for everyone and skills to be a spam-fest.
Yes but action combat games have more of this and is normally the main staple. Tell me an action MMO that does not? Both not insta cast heavy and people hopping around like bunnies? My guess you will have a hard time. I have been MMOing for almost 23 years and played more MMOs then I cant count. Maybe your exp is different but that has been mine. Like I said above, there is exceptions to the rule. I have played some action combat games I liked but most I do not. I hope Steven can pull this off but I have my doubts and I could list many. Most of all, I dont think action and tab targeting skills sets will balance well in PvP. Sure np in a PvE game. Its Gun vs Bat IMO.
Totally agree!
In a tab target system you have to be much more aware of your overall positioning, as well as the enemy ranges and cooldowns. If you put yourself in a position where you can't hit your opponent but they can hit you, you are screwed. An action combat system is much more forgiving when it comes to things like this because you can simply side-step to avoid getting hit as you reposition.
Oh my god where is that @Dreoh kid, because here is literally someone on this forum calling GW2 action combat and he said he’s never seen it. THIS is why I constantly bring up the fact that people think GW2 is action combat when it’s literally tab-lite.
Also, nanfoodle, you say yawn for an exciting action system when tab target is literally just pressing the next hot bar action that comes off cooldown which will give you the most DPS. Everything you’re complaining about is the same with a tab system, the only difference is you think action combat is button mashing, when in reality you have the same if not MORE positioning, dodging, skill choice and then reflexes on top of all that. Maybe you’re just not good at action combat and that’s why you find it boring. You like the computer telling you that your skill hit the target when you couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn with your “bat” to use your own poor analogy.
Its actually a action hybrid combat system. Words from the devs mouth that made the game. And it does play that way.
Kind of like what AoC is shooting for. =-)
That was a good combat system but you did prove my point. You could only list one action combat game that pulled that off =-) Ashes going down that path, I hope they end up being among the few that pulls it off. IMO they have a tall order to do so. Mixing action and tab skills in one game only makes that hander. Again, I hope they manage to pull it off. I just wish they had stuck with their OG plan. But thats my opinion and in no way think you should agree with me.
Darkfall, free aim system, had none of that. No dodge, all magic skills had casts.
GW2, a game you brought up and accuse of being action, is technically a tab game or at least a hybrid which ashes aims to be.
Your experience is irrelevant, it's the designers experience that matter. They can't read your mind. When you are saying you don't want action, you are taking about a targeting system and not what you mentioned. If you don't want those things, then you need to say that instead of assuming the designers have your mindset and associate the two.
Ashes is trying to have a hybrid system. Saying you don't like action would either write off your opinion on the subject as that aspect of the system is not target towards you or assume you don't like the aiming aspect. The action side of their combat system doesn't need to include anything you mentioned so being specific gives them more information.
Once again, i like action but i also don't like either of the things you mentioned