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Vassal node rebellion

2

Comments

  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Bit confused by this post??? Just don't be vassled by them or break it off and find a way to dec on them? Unsure the reason for the complexity for (rebellion) you aren't forced to be as a vassal.

    There are perks and risk as well to being a vassal so it would have to be a serious discussion if you were to join them.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited October 2022
    wrms wrote: »
    I like this idea a lot, although I think I would change the approach a bit. As a previous poster mentioned, I think it would make more sense for the rebel node to be on the defensive side rather than having to siege the top node.

    Yes, rebels should be on defensive, it just makes sense they stop paying taxes to the master node and the master node should come and get it!

    Maybe rebels also should be able to freely kill anyone in the master node, for sabotaging their xp farm for the node an force the master node to delevel... just gank everybody without corruption.

    The master node should let the vassal free or take the fight.
    wrms wrote: »
    I
    I havent worked through all of the details, but I think maybe a situation where the rebel node votes to secede, then an automatic siege is scheduled during prime time a few days later, but of the parent node against the rebel. The parent doesnt have to pay for a siege scroll because they can't trigger this situation, and the rebel runs the risk of having their node destroyed or damaged, depending how much the parent node wanted to punish them for their rebellion. The parent node might want to completely wreck them to make an example out of them, but that would also probably lower the tax income from that node, so there might also be a good reason to be a bit more merciful.

    Voting for secession seems cool.

    1) citizens in the vassal node vote yay (1 week)
    2) then the master node's mayor should decide in a week for freeing the vassal node or fighting the rebels (1 week)
    3) a siege against the vassal node will be scheduled (1 week)

    So without fighting the vassals could be free in 2 weeks and fighting they could be free in 3 weeks...

    What happens if they lose?
    Maybe double tax it for 3 weeks :smile:

    wrms wrote: »
    If the rebel survives the siege, they wouldn't level up or anything, but their link to the parent node would be severed, so no more taxes from above. Then add a 30 day cooldown (or whatever number makes sense) until the parent node could siege them again to try to recapture the rebel node.

    Makes sense, also vassals will not receive any of the bonuses offered by the master node... there's benefits in being a vassal.

    But people should be able to opt out being a vassal and give up all the benefits... what if you live in the vassal node and you and your guild want to level it up and be mayor? There's ambitions involved, people will want to do stuff... people not always will accept having their node level capped down.
    wrms wrote: »
    Whether it works exactly like this or not, I would still really like to see smaller nodes have some recourse against larger nodes above them in the hierarchy, to make sure that those big nodes have a good incentive to treat their vassals well. Sure, abused citizens can just leave if they don't like it, but some kind of system like this would be so much more dynamic and engaging.

    I think smaller nodes will be simply beat up bad, but when they win it will be REALLY COOL.

    Because there is a chain and who is bellow in the chain is level capped, if you get free you can level up your node freely and if you become a vassal again then you already won because now you are bigger and you will have your vassals bellow you.

    It is a thing!
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited October 2022
    What would happen if all vassals rebel at the same time?
    :#

    Who would they rebel against?
    Just the master above your node in the chain, so every node in the middle of the chain would have to fight in 2 fronts... a defense siege against their master and an offensive siege against their vassals... but he could have 2 vassals so it would be a 3 front fight

    That would be an awesome Sunday, having 3 sieges to fight!
    <3
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • NepokeNepoke Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Bit confused by this post??? Just don't be vassled by them or break it off and find a way to dec on them? Unsure the reason for the complexity for (rebellion) you aren't forced to be as a vassal.

    There are perks and risk as well to being a vassal so it would have to be a serious discussion if you were to join them.

    You might use a refresher on the vassalization system:
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Vassal_nodes
    The system is completely automatic and the only way players can influence it is by leveling up their node as fast as possible. Vassals can't war/siege their parent node, and there is no joining or breaking off a vassal chain through player action.

    Even if there are benefits to being a vassal (I don't think there are any risks), there is always more benefit to being the parent node instead of the vassal.
    Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    What would happen if all vassals rebel at the same time?
    :#

    Who would they rebel against?
    Just the master above your node in the chain, so every node in the middle of the chain would have to fight in 2 fronts... a defense siege against their master and an offensive siege against their vassals... but he could have 2 vassals so it would be a 3 front fight

    That would be an awesome Sunday, having 3 sieges to fight!
    <3

    In my suggestion a rebellion would work just like a regular siege and would follow the same rules. Since so far there doesn't seem to be a restriction on how many sieges can happen at once, it should be possible that every node rebels against their immediate parent at the same time. That would be some big chaos.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Nepoke wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Bit confused by this post??? Just don't be vassled by them or break it off and find a way to dec on them? Unsure the reason for the complexity for (rebellion) you aren't forced to be as a vassal.

    There are perks and risk as well to being a vassal so it would have to be a serious discussion if you were to join them.

    You might use a refresher on the vassalization system:
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Vassal_nodes
    The system is completely automatic and the only way players can influence it is by leveling up their node as fast as possible. Vassals can't war/siege their parent node, and there is no joining or breaking off a vassal chain through player action.

    Even if there are benefits to being a vassal (I don't think there are any risks), there is always more benefit to being the parent node instead of the vassal.
    Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    What would happen if all vassals rebel at the same time?
    :#

    Who would they rebel against?
    Just the master above your node in the chain, so every node in the middle of the chain would have to fight in 2 fronts... a defense siege against their master and an offensive siege against their vassals... but he could have 2 vassals so it would be a 3 front fight

    That would be an awesome Sunday, having 3 sieges to fight!
    <3

    In my suggestion a rebellion would work just like a regular siege and would follow the same rules. Since so far there doesn't seem to be a restriction on how many sieges can happen at once, it should be possible that every node rebels against their immediate parent at the same time. That would be some big chaos.

    Where in the wiki does it say it sets you automatically as a vassal? I don't believe that map was that binary, and you would have some element of choices on what you might pick.

    Please give me a quote.
  • NepokeNepoke Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    This is from the node blog post, which is quoted many times in the wiki article:

    kn68dx8knvum.png

    Here's Summit being lectured about how node expansion works, with nodes being vassalized mentioned in passing.
  • Nepoke wrote: »
    In my suggestion a rebellion would work just like a regular siege and would follow the same rules. Since so far there doesn't seem to be a restriction on how many sieges can happen at once, it should be possible that every node rebels against their immediate parent at the same time. That would be some big chaos.

    That's what I thought!

    Everybody rebelling against their own immediate master, so your vassal would rebel against you too, meaning you would have two sieges being an offensive and a defensive.

    Total chaos, this makes me salivate for it!
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited October 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    In my suggestion a rebellion would work just like a regular siege and would follow the same rules. Since so far there doesn't seem to be a restriction on how many sieges can happen at once, it should be possible that every node rebels against their immediate parent at the same time. That would be some big chaos.

    Where in the wiki does it say it sets you automatically as a vassal? I don't believe that map was that binary, and you would have some element of choices on what you might pick.

    Please give me a quote.[/quote]

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Nodes
    Village (stage 3) or higher nodes enslave nearby nodes, converting them into vassal nodes.[8][48]

    When I say that carebears will be the ultimate oppressors in AoC people think I am joking!

    I'm not joking at all!
    People who farm more like a colony of drone ants will enslave everybody else and today the vassals have no tools to deal with that other than:

    1: guild wars, guild on guild... that would need a lot of coordination which we don't know if it's gonna happen
    2: ganking, but the corruption will apply some nasty dampening effects on you
    3: node wars, try to work with another master node who can declare war against your master and backstab your master
    4: massive efforts in deleveling the master node, if the master delevel it loses it's vassals
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • FrostywombatFrostywombat Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Sounds interesting but I think it would cheapen the vassalage too much. You can always just support a rival node by moving there, or as a tourist. A rival node it likely going to have better resources to support a war anyway.

    It would also open up things like proxy wars through vassal rebellions, which could be fun in some cases, but just to complicated overall. Better to just have the major nodes declare wars rather than go through proxies
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Nepoke wrote: »
    This is from the node blog post, which is quoted many times in the wiki article:

    kn68dx8knvum.png

    Here's Summit being lectured about how node expansion works, with nodes being vassalized mentioned in passing.

    I see in the interview makes it seem like it is automatic then.

    Being a Vassal node should be a choice and not forced. That way you can decide if the benefits are worth it to you or not.
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    First, it is clear that a node has no choice when it becomes a vassal, if the node next door progresses first, you become its vassal. As mentioned above, to avoid that then you need to progress your node first and make them your vassal.

    However, if someone else successfully sieges the node which vassals your node, then your node might then be the dominant node in the area and the other, lower level, nearby nodes would be your node's vassals. You could encourage this, of course, by encouraging that siege and being a spy for the attackers to help them win.

    Second, in order to obtain a siege scroll, you need to do a LOT of effort, perhaps similar to the effort needed to level up the node being sieged: "Sieging will require a similar amount of resources and time to what it took to develop the node being sieged.[13]" and "The questing that is incorporated as part of attaining that particular scroll is very particular to the type of scroll you're attempting to acquire and that is inclusive not just of the materials required as part of that questing but also the time associated with completing that quest, because we want there to be a reciprocal relationship between how much time it takes to stand up a node of the particular size and the types of quests that are required in order to attain the siege scroll. So, there won't be a method by which you can first attain a scroll for a lower-level node and then increase or augment or change that scroll after you've completed the quest. You'll have to go through a new quest again for the type of level of node you want.[12]"

    Therefore, something as simple as a vassal declaring that it is rebelling against its overlord would appear to be an 'end run' around the enormous effort that will be required to declare a formal siege.

    Third, a simple majority vote of citizens to do this would seem appropriate only in a Scientific node which elects mayors. A Military node might have it be a mayoral decision, a Divine node perhaps requiring quests on the parts of the citizens, and an Economic node a huge cash payment by the node.

    My personal opinion would be a solid NO for this idea for the reasons posted above AND because there is already a way for a node to become free of its own accord, as I discussed in my second paragraph above. Find another node to successfully siege your overlord and provide inside information on the defenses so that the attacker succeeds. Of course, if someone leaks that you are a spy, expect the patron guilds in your overlord node to declare you 'kill on sight' for eternity!!! That is another example of this wonderful game design.
  • tautau wrote: »
    My personal opinion would be a solid NO for this idea for the reasons posted above AND because there is already a way for a node to become free of its own accord, as I discussed in my second paragraph above. Find another node to successfully siege your overlord and provide inside information on the defenses so that the attacker succeeds. Of course, if someone leaks that you are a spy, expect the patron guilds in your overlord node to declare you 'kill on sight' for eternity!!! That is another example of this wonderful game design.

    If your spy alt gets caught, delete it and make another.

    @tautau what if the "enemy" master node has no interest or even military strengh to beat your master node?
    Then nothing can help you if you are a vassal node and wants to level your node.

    I did understand your point that a rebelion would simply undo everything, all the work.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Every other node on the server that is the same level or higher than your overlord node is the potential 'enemy' to bring the siege to your overlord node. If you cannot convince any of them to attack, then you do not deserve to be free.

    I guess I assumed (bad on my part) that you/your toon was the mayor of the node wanting to rebel, thus would likely be your main. If you wanted to use an alt to convince another large node to attack your overlord node, I suspect it would be difficult for your alt to convince the other node's Mayor and citizens to attack - after all, why would they listen to some lower-level alt to start a war? Improbable. You would likely have to reveal your main, as mayor of your vassal node, to convince the other node's Mayor to buy into your scheme, and once you revealed your Main....you know as well as I do how hopeless it is to keep a secret like that forever.

    I expect that such things will happen, lower-level nodes will conspire with enemies of their overlord node to bring them down in a siege, and that such rebellions may succeed sometimes and fail other times. All of this is an example of what is going to keep AoC exciting for years, brilliant motivations for players to conspire against each other and make this game a classic.

    Thanks for introducing this thread, though I still do not think we need to change the current design.
  • @tautau you made good points on this

    I guess the vassals will have to harass their masters as much as possible in many ways
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • NepokeNepoke Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 2022
    @tautau
    I'm a bit unconvinced by your arguments, and I'll go through my disagreements point by point.
    tautau wrote: »
    However, if someone else successfully sieges the node which vassals your node, then your node might then be the dominant node in the area and the other, lower level, nearby nodes would be your node's vassals. You could encourage this, of course, by encouraging that siege and being a spy for the attackers to help them win.

    ---

    I guess I assumed (bad on my part) that you/your toon was the mayor of the node wanting to rebel, thus would likely be your main. If you wanted to use an alt to convince another large node to attack your overlord node, I suspect it would be difficult for your alt to convince the other node's Mayor and citizens to attack - after all, why would they listen to some lower-level alt to start a war? Improbable. You would likely have to reveal your main, as mayor of your vassal node, to convince the other node's Mayor to buy into your scheme, and once you revealed your Main....you know as well as I do how hopeless it is to keep a secret like that forever.
    To me, being a "spy" does absolutely nothing. What useful information can a vassal node report on it's parent node that another player can't get by just simply walking in? They are not part of the parent node and shouldn't have any more insight into the inside dealings. Furthermore, the idea that "encouraging" a siege is enough for one to happen doesn't sound right to me. A vassal would have to find some external party that is willing to go through the siege scroll quest for them, as alts are tied to the same citizenship as the main. The vassal node could feed resources to the external party to help with the completion at least, but the "helper" could just pocket all the resources instead, because they don't really have a stake in helping out.
    tautau wrote: »
    Therefore, something as simple as a vassal declaring that it is rebelling against its overlord would appear to be an 'end run' around the enormous effort that will be required to declare a formal siege.
    If you read my suggestion more thoroughly, I indicated that a siege scroll is still required for a rebellion. The rebellion part is just simply the ABILITY to use the scroll and join the list of atttackers.
    tautau wrote: »
    Third, a simple majority vote of citizens to do this would seem appropriate only in a Scientific node which elects mayors. A Military node might have it be a mayoral decision, a Divine node perhaps requiring quests on the parts of the citizens, and an Economic node a huge cash payment by the node.
    This is something I did think about and I half agree because it would be thematic with the nodes. However, if there would be a serious downside to rebelling (like in suggestion type B ), I wouldn't want someone being able to just throw money at it and now everyone else not wanting to rebel has to suffer. At the end of the day, rebellion comes down to the will of the people, so a vote roughly mimics that.
    tautau wrote: »
    Every other node on the server that is the same level or higher than your overlord node is the potential 'enemy' to bring the siege to your overlord node. If you cannot convince any of them to attack, then you do not deserve to be free.
    This would be my main disagreement. More often than not, the thing that's blocking a node from growing is the parent node, not any external node. The nearby parent nodes could very well just be happy with the status quo and not want to weaken their position by spending resources on useless wars that don't affect their own growth (especially if they are already metropolises). The situation is worse if your node is a town node blocked by a city node that is blocked by a metropolis. If you want to take out the city that is directly blocking you, convincing outside parties to spend time and effort sieging some middle-of-the-chain node seems extremely difficult.

    Secondly, this "if you cannot convince any of them to attack, then you do not deserve to be free" sounds a bit backwards. Shouldn't it be "if you're not strong enough to defeat your oppressor, then you do not deserve to be free"? I don't want begging and cheerleading being the skills that decide if my node can grow. I don't see yelling for help and then watching other people decide my fate being a fun political system. Why not let me fight for my own freedom with my own skill in pvp and leadership?

    Anyway, to summarize my whole argument in a sentence:
    A rebellion mechanic would help prevent stale world states, add more interesting node politics, and give more agency to players over their outcomes.
  • There will be situations where the Masternode is ruled by few greedy, inkompetent scumbags or even alts from other nodes.

    There should be an option to strip the Masternode from the throne.

    Imagine the Mad King from Game of Thrones would be magically protected from rebellions and only a forgein army (does not exsist in GoT) could put him down?!

    I played years EvE online and have seen everything.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 2022
    I'm curious on the design reason why it is forced, i think that is the better question to ask right now.
  • StreviStrevi Member
    edited November 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I'm curious on the design reason why it is forced, i think that is the better question to ask right now.
    Just like it tries to bring players together through the citizenship, it also grows that into larger dependencies but also limiting the maximum number of metropolises to 5.
    This "5" number is the reason. Fewer would make the world less dynamic and more of them would increase the granularity too much. This is the number Steven sees as good for politics and war on the AoC's map size.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Strevi wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I'm curious on the design reason why it is forced, i think that is the better question to ask right now.
    Just like it tries to bring players together through the citizenship, it also grows that into larger dependencies but also limiting the maximum number of metropolises to 5.
    This "5" number is the reason. Fewer would make the world less dynamic and more of them would increase the granularity too much. This is the number Steven sees as good for politics and war on the AoC's map size.

    That has nothing to do with limiting to stage 6, why are you suggesting that? Being forced to support a node than be against should have 0 impact on lvl 6 nodes and the amount in the world.

    This is not a design reason as that design doesn't relate to who you can and can't declare war on.
  • Mag7spy wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I'm curious on the design reason why it is forced, i think that is the better question to ask right now.
    Just like it tries to bring players together through the citizenship, it also grows that into larger dependencies but also limiting the maximum number of metropolises to 5.
    This "5" number is the reason. Fewer would make the world less dynamic and more of them would increase the granularity too much. This is the number Steven sees as good for politics and war on the AoC's map size.

    That has nothing to do with limiting to stage 6, why are you suggesting that? Being forced to support a node than be against should have 0 impact on lvl 6 nodes and the amount in the world.

    This is not a design reason as that design doesn't relate to who you can and can't declare war on.
    "Limiting to stage 6" the nodes? I never considered level 7 nodes...

    I say there will be up to 5 metropolises on the map. Steven said that this number is important, that there should be no more of them. I assume is related to the dynamic of the map, trying to prevent a high granularity, where each node stays solo against the others and also no granularity at all, where an equilibrium is reached.

    If vassals would declare war onto parents or would break away, there would either more chaos or too much player control. The way how nodes gain experience and level up is also secret. Steven wants players to not be able to influence this aspect easily.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • FrostywombatFrostywombat Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 2022
    If no forced vassalage then everyone can be lvl 5 apart from maybe maintenance issues. I would rather lvl 5 be rare.

    Caravans to run from the vassals to the parent. One rebel mechanic would be to attack these caravans as they leave your node. Maybe with enough chaos and raiding a parent could be deleveled as it couldn’t afford maintenance. Dunno who would become parent in that case.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    If no forced vassalage then everyone can be lvl 5 apart from maybe maintenance issues. I would rather lvl 5 be rare.

    Caravans to run from the vassals to the parent. One rebel mechanic would be to attack these caravans as they leave your node. Maybe with enough chaos and raiding a parent could be deleveled as it couldn’t afford maintenance. Dunno who would become parent in that case.

    Why would everyone be lvl 5, you can still have an area of influence that prevents other lvl 5, unless your place is destroyed? You simply make it a choice to be a vassal or not.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Strevi wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I'm curious on the design reason why it is forced, i think that is the better question to ask right now.
    Just like it tries to bring players together through the citizenship, it also grows that into larger dependencies but also limiting the maximum number of metropolises to 5.
    This "5" number is the reason. Fewer would make the world less dynamic and more of them would increase the granularity too much. This is the number Steven sees as good for politics and war on the AoC's map size.

    That has nothing to do with limiting to stage 6, why are you suggesting that? Being forced to support a node than be against should have 0 impact on lvl 6 nodes and the amount in the world.

    This is not a design reason as that design doesn't relate to who you can and can't declare war on.
    "Limiting to stage 6" the nodes? I never considered level 7 nodes...

    I say there will be up to 5 metropolises on the map. Steven said that this number is important, that there should be no more of them. I assume is related to the dynamic of the map, trying to prevent a high granularity, where each node stays solo against the others and also no granularity at all, where an equilibrium is reached.

    If vassals would declare war onto parents or would break away, there would either more chaos or too much player control. The way how nodes gain experience and level up is also secret. Steven wants players to not be able to influence this aspect easily.

    Chaos will happen ither way, people just have to move far away then attack their own node. It is better if players have a choice to become a vassal or not.


    Only thing i can think of is if the node distribution won't be as impactful as one might think, so they are forcing vassals so it will have a bigger impact in destroying multiple areas.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited November 2022
    Ehrgeiz wrote: »
    There will be situations where the Masternode is ruled by few greedy, inkompetent scumbags or even alts from other nodes.

    There should be an option to strip the Masternode from the throne.

    Imagine the Mad King from Game of Thrones would be magically protected from rebellions and only a forgein army (does not exsist in GoT) could put him down?!

    I played years EvE online and have seen everything.

    I still play EVE, my ingame name is Arya Yeshe there

    At the momment there's no direct way for the vassals from saving themselves from the master node, also the vassals are level capped so they can level up to the same level as the master

    'So it's kinda worse than slavery and the players will probably have to do this:
    -guild wars: equivalent to war decs in EVE
    -ganking gatherers in the master node: ganking highsec miners in EVE
    -support enemy nodes that can declare war on your master, but it will be a problem if we have a blue donut in AoC
    -caravan raiding

    So there aren't many options right now
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • Mag7spy wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I'm curious on the design reason why it is forced, i think that is the better question to ask right now.
    Just like it tries to bring players together through the citizenship, it also grows that into larger dependencies but also limiting the maximum number of metropolises to 5.
    This "5" number is the reason. Fewer would make the world less dynamic and more of them would increase the granularity too much. This is the number Steven sees as good for politics and war on the AoC's map size.

    That has nothing to do with limiting to stage 6, why are you suggesting that? Being forced to support a node than be against should have 0 impact on lvl 6 nodes and the amount in the world.

    This is not a design reason as that design doesn't relate to who you can and can't declare war on.
    "Limiting to stage 6" the nodes? I never considered level 7 nodes...

    I say there will be up to 5 metropolises on the map. Steven said that this number is important, that there should be no more of them. I assume is related to the dynamic of the map, trying to prevent a high granularity, where each node stays solo against the others and also no granularity at all, where an equilibrium is reached.

    If vassals would declare war onto parents or would break away, there would either more chaos or too much player control. The way how nodes gain experience and level up is also secret. Steven wants players to not be able to influence this aspect easily.

    Chaos will happen ither way, people just have to move far away then attack their own node. It is better if players have a choice to become a vassal or not.


    Only thing i can think of is if the node distribution won't be as impactful as one might think, so they are forcing vassals so it will have a bigger impact in destroying multiple areas.

    Good point, when a node falls, it also causes bigger impact on the political map, if that is what you mean by "destroying multiple areas".
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • FrostywombatFrostywombat Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »

    Why would everyone be lvl 5, you can still have an area of influence that prevents other lvl 5, unless your place is destroyed? You simply make it a choice to be a vassal or not.

    Fair enough,
    Would loose much of the npc caravans though with less vassalage. I think they could be fun to raid/protect.
    Also like the idea of empires forming rather than city states. Maybe they could force vassalage by intimidation/war as an alternative. That could be fun but more complicated and open to abuse.

    In general I don’t see vassalage as something you choose it’s something that’s forced onto you; economically, through war, or threats. Something you choose is more like an alliance.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »

    Why would everyone be lvl 5, you can still have an area of influence that prevents other lvl 5, unless your place is destroyed? You simply make it a choice to be a vassal or not.

    Fair enough,
    Would loose much of the npc caravans though with less vassalage. I think they could be fun to raid/protect.
    Also like the idea of empires forming rather than city states. Maybe they could force vassalage by intimidation/war as an alternative. That could be fun but more complicated and open to abuse.

    In general I don’t see vassalage as something you choose it’s something that’s forced onto you; economically, through war, or threats. Something you choose is more like an alliance.

    I just find it makes things a lot more interesting being able to freely create your alliances around the map with nodes agreeing to work together and such potentially. Like some LOTR stuff where u have an ally across the map and you ride over there to help them.

    Just feel like choice is loss and you feel the need to leave or feel like it's impossible for your node to level up as you have to hope one is destroyed, rather than making that happen yourself.
  • This is something I have been concerned with myself. I agree there needs to be a way for vassals to rebel against parent nodes. The main issue here is the parent node holds all the power. What if they raise your tax rate to 100% the second you become their vassal and the only way for you to fight back is by not defending them if they are sieged? I see that being a major problem. All of the ways discussed seem appropriate, why not give vassals all of the options? Hold majority votes to Siege the parent node or refuse to pay taxes. form alliances with other nodes and undermine their efforts. However, if a vassal can do all this to the parent node, the parent node should be able to siege them as well. This will force vassals to play it smart, planning their moves ahead of time and forming alliances before the larger node overwhelms them. In theory, a parent node wouldn't attack a vassal without a good reason, as they would be costing themselves tax revenue and support from those players. Then again what's to stop a parent node from overwhelming a vassal just to take their resources? I see it being difficult to balance without spiraling out of control.
  • StreviStrevi Member
    edited November 2022
    If no forced vassalage then everyone can be lvl 5 apart from maybe maintenance issues. I would rather lvl 5 be rare.

    Caravans to run from the vassals to the parent. One rebel mechanic would be to attack these caravans as they leave your node. Maybe with enough chaos and raiding a parent could be deleveled as it couldn’t afford maintenance. Dunno who would become parent in that case.

    I think high level nodes fall apart as you say due to not being able to sustain themselves if vassals are lost.
    Regarding caravans, it is unclear to me if players can attack or not caravans which go from a sibling node to the metropolis. IF they can, the metropolis might fall apart and those citizens will have no high level node anymore for a while.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • Voeltz wrote: »
    Then again what's to stop a parent node from overwhelming a vassal just to take their resources? I see it being difficult to balance without spiraling out of control.

    You mean harvesting on their territory?
    Some node policies were mentioned this stream and more info will come later.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
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