Dev Discussion #29 - Mentoring

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  • RintaRinta Member
    edited April 9
    Dev Discussion #29 - Mentoring
    What kinds of tools or rewards most encourage you to become involved in a mentorship program, either as a mentor or mentee?

    A good reward would definitely motivate me to exploit... oh, sorry, to join the mentorship program :)

    On serious note, to answer this question I first need to understand which goals we want to achieve, which problems we are trying to resolve when we say that we want to implement a "mentorship program".
    As I understand it, the goals might be the following:

    1. Assist new players with figuring out game mechanics. This can be split into:
    1.1 Gameplay basics that everyone experiences via normal gameplay (stats / skills / corruption / taxes / etc.)
    1.2 Niche mechanics that not everyone is going to encounter (high-end crafting / guild management / mayorship / etc.)
    2. Assist new players in finding people to play with (people might not want to play with a newbie, but in mentor-mentee situation this issue is alleviated)
    3. Assist new players in leveling - make their leveling experience faster and easier

    This is from the top of my head. I don't see right away what other issues mentorship programs could resolve.

    Now, for the last two of these:

    For 2. - In my opinion, Guilds system is a much better way of pushing new players to find mates. If ingame tutorials / early NPCs repeatedly point out that the game is oriented towards group play, explain the buffs and benefits of a Guild and direct new players towards the Guild advert board - this will lead to them naturally integrating into community, and a crutch of mentorship program is not needed to achieve that.

    For 3. - Unlike many other MMOs, leveling in Ashes is supposed to be more of a background process, and not a hurdle to be skipped by any means. Naturally if someone has friends who can assist them with leveling - there are all kinds of help they can get, and that's their choice, however if this process was streamlined for all new players - this would contradict the stated goal.

    This leaves us with the most obvious goal of providing knowledge and information.
    As was already mentioned before by many - there are some good options for that which don't involve a specific mentorship program:
    - Rich ingame knowledge base, or alternatively - an easy way to search and link wiki articles from ingame
    - Separate "Help" chat to which new players are directed to ask questions, and anyone can answer
    - If new players are heavily incentivised to search for a Guild - the Guild chat will become the place for them to ask questions

    For gameplay basics, I believe the above is sufficient, since basics should definitely be covered by ingame knowledge base, and most people would be able to advise on them, since everyone experiences them throughout normal gameplay.

    Now for niche mechanics, one-on-one mentorship might be more applicable.
    Let's take crafting. There could be a register of high-end crafters willing to help out someone who is just starting. Say, a specific level in crafting is required to go on that register, and there could even be a minor crafting level requirement to request help (so that mentors don't get spammed by someone who didn't even bother to read up on bare basics).

    Such mentor register could be made extremely robust:
    Anyone can put their name on it, specify which area they are willing to help with (select any number of topics from a large pre-defined list, with optional free text option), and which requirement they have for mentees (for example, their level in certain profession, their class, etc.). Then potential mentee can enter a topic they need help with, enter their requirements for the mentor (say, mentor's level), and get a list of matching mentors displayed.

    Now, how to motivate people to do any of the above, or to help anyone ever at all?
    I doubt there's much need. Many people enjoy being teachers, it gives certain feeling of power and superiority, or alternatively - pride for your own goodness. Forcing the issue with rewards, or worse - some kind of rating contests, will likely result in worse quality help. As long as there's an obvious way to ask / look for help - it's going to be fine. To be honest, the "mentor register" even feels like too much effort for such a non-issue.

    PS.
    While I was typing - @Nyxxa already posted a more detailed suggestion similar to my "mentor register", which is well aligned with my thinking.

    PPS:
    I just realized that there's already a specific Mentor Program in the works, which was entirely non-obvious from the Dev question. From what I see in wiki, it's not much like traditional mentorship in other MMOs, but rather a set of specific quests that accomodate differently leveled players (without any level / power adjustment), intended more for friends to play together, than for random new players to get help. Were we supposed to talk about that one?
  • Happymeal2415Happymeal2415 Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I like the idea of mentoring as long as it can't be abused as a carry system or anything. Also give it some meaningful prizes if it is going to be a thing. As well as a rating system for mentor or mentee.
  • CypherCypher Member, Braver of Worlds
    Actually, I’m amending my original opinion after thinking more and reading a lot of these posts.

    There shouldn’t be any reward. There should also not be anything more than a “mentor/mentee” chat channel which is accessible only under level 10 or at max level.

    I really liked the ideas about a short tutorial, especially the one @Dreoh mentioned where you start on Sanctus and run through the basics and then go through the portal to Verra to end the tutorial. This should also be optional to skip.
  • maouwmaouw Member
    In FFXIV I found the mentor system overwhelming. The game told me to ask _these_ players questions, but I had no questions to ask. It's also a weird vibe knowing that those players were advertising their own expertese with icons next to their names - it comes across as more of a flex than a helpful icon.
    I didn't mind having the green leaf icon over my head - because I was legitimately new to the game and I felt like people would be more lenient with me, but I can understand how that can devolve into a derogative symbol. Perhaps if there was an option to toggle the icon? I still think it helps signal your learning attitude to other players.

    Generally, I find intentional Mentor-Mentee systems are short-lived and lose their meaning quickly. In Maplestory it became a mechanic to boost Alts to high levels faster, and in most other games I barely interacted with the mentor beyond the first day of mentorship because I wasn't integrated into their social circles - the mentor relationship did not progress into wider community relationships. So what does the AoC mentorship intend to do? Short lessons or long-term relationship?

    I have 3 favourite teaching/learning moments:
    • Struggling alongside peers - you end up bonding over the shared confusion, and you share eureka moments together.
    • Group content that relies on communication - forces people to talk and depend on each other. I mostly meet new people here.
    • Flexible slots in group content - leaves room for the inexperienced to see how something is done. These are also the moments when you brush shoulders with amazing players leaving you a little starry eyed. Unfortunately, it goes against the risk-reward mantra, but you can fix that by limiting the reward for a flexible slot player. (In Maplestory's old Guild Quest, someone had to sacrifice their life in order for the guild to progress)

    In PvP (My only experience comes from LoL) you naturally learn a lot from your opponents. Perhaps you can add some competitive aspect to the Mentor-Mentee relationship?

    I resonate with some comments that others have made already:
    Down-levelling to your friends to help them out is a better experience than doing everything for them.
    Carrot-on-a-stick rewards in the mentor system make for ingenuine mentors and are usually exploitable.
    It makes sense to me that mentorship is the responsibility of guilds.
    Good mentors should be nominated, not self-promoted.

    These days there are a million guides online for everything, so the place of mentorships is blurry.
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  • NeurotoxinNeurotoxin Member, Alpha One
    A design I wrote... probably a decade ago, and rehashed in the EQN/Landmark docs, is the idea of potential vs experience. Essentially, you train with a mentor to build potential, which acts like rested experience for a certain skill or task, and then going out to do the task causes it to be earned at an accelerated rate. This can be limited and enhanced in various ways, such as the mentor skill compared to the mentee skill increasing the quality of the potential, while time spent training with a mentor would increase the length of the bonus for the mentee. Like resources, potential can also be a thing that takes a hit on death, to further encourage players to work and stick together, especially if the mentor can provide potential while you're in the field with them doing the task, and not just studying somewhere safe.

    This also brings me back to the idea of having someone in a settlement who can provide roles while logged out or AFK there. I'd love to be able to leave my character at the station where arrows get made to assist other players with the task so they make better quality products, and help them learn faster while they do it.

    With all this, the mentor is not just getting praise, but they also build potential, as well as possibly increasing a "mentoring" skill which can further amplify the quality and range of potential for mentees. This may also open the door for quick lessons that can be applied for short-term buffs that aren't part of the normal mentoring relationship, and give them a means to charge for acute buffs. For example, getting a quick lesson on how to maximize mining of a specific ore can let players increase their yield, whether or not they were mentored for long enough to build potential. The mentoring skill may also allow for an increase in the number of people they can mentor at once, being able to fill a lecture hall at the highest levels. The deeper meta is mentoring others on their mentoring skill.

    Mentors can charge a fee for mentoring, providing buffs, set up group discounts, etc. Alternatively, it could be set up at a local level to offset fees or taxes, which would be a way that a city could keep their best teachers local. Or just run free services, particularly something I'd expect to see in a guild environment, and they're compensated in other ways for it. It could be possible that players can't reach the highest potential in a trade if they don't mentor others, that the last 10% of the skill requires teaching other players and leaning from their mistakes and inquiries, and seeing how they've learned to do similar tasks.
  • HellainaHellaina Member
    If the experience of this game is going to be so vastly different for each and everyone of us then is there really any point to a mentor system? The only way i could see a mentor system working is maybe if it was profession based . ie a highly skilled black smith could give a generic bonus to someone new taking up the skill whom he mentored. although to stop this being abused i would presume the mentor needs to be of an extremely high lvl to allow them to mentor plus once you mentor someone you are locked to that one and only person until they reach a certain level at which point you can then move on to mentor someone else if you so wish to do so.
  • Kaizen StravaKaizen Strava Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Shroud of the Avatar has a nice mechanic that allows party members to "Apprentice" skill gain in skills that anyone on the party has achieved Grandmaster (100) level in. they get a quicker skill gain vs. using the skill outside the party.
    Ultima online had an amazing Counsellor Program that players could sign up for to help "GM" oversee game play and deal with issues / answer questions.
  • SeloSelo Member
    Dont want to see any "exp boost" mentoring
    Or "level boost" mentoring to powerlvl them in dungeons etc
    Mentoring should only be about guidance.
    One cool thing could be that when players get to a point in crafting they need to see out someone higher in the same craft to learn how to advance.
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  • GovsGovs Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    A tool that encourages me to be a mentor is an icon over the playable character. This makes my life easier as people can locate me quickly.

    The icon can be seen, but the further away the player is from the mentor, the more transparent the icon gets (regardless of objects, walls, combat effects in between). Maybe allowing the player to turn it on between raids/public/parties would be beneficial.

    There should be a general cost of entry or requirement to obtain said “mentorship” status. This allows players to know that the person with that status is not a novice in the game. This incentivizes me to be a mentee if I am not familiar with specific locations/aspects of the game.
  • MarzzoMarzzo Member, Leader of Men, Alpha One
    Titles, pets and maybe a cosmetic thing or two.
  • DezzRevasDezzRevas Member, Alpha One
    Back in Ever Quest 2 they had a good mentoring system. You grouped with a player and could mentor them. Doing so brought you down to their lvl in power. So you were effectively what ever lvl your mentee was and all your skills were lowered to fit the scale of that lvl. The mentee got a 75% boost to xp gain and you will got xp% based on the lvl you were down to. This also meant you could not walk through all the stuff you would normally not worry about. Reds for the lowered lvl are still dangerous and could kill you.

    I do like the idea of some special swag for helping but to be fair I always help people anyway without it so probably not needed. Spreading knowledge and making a new friend should be what it is about.
  • I would like to see a bulletin leaderboard for mentors. These are people willing to mentor and they get rated by the mentee. That way it is easy to find a mentor within your node. Guilds can designate mentor roles and helps with recruitment. After 10 mentor ratings giving a free cosmetic platform for freehold/guildhall. Have to earn the item the cosmetic goes on.

    This is just for RP purposes when the prospect goes to request mentor services. I don't care if the leaderboards are gamed nor if everyone gets the cosmetic. Because it is just for the fun of it.
  • From the combat perspective:
    Experience/level bonus thats tuned to matching skill tree selections would be nice, depending on mentor level gap.

    From the artisan perspective:
    Never really had cause to consider it before, but could apply the same for a group activity in each artisan jobs. Especially if skill tree selection is a thing.
  • Tre MandoTre Mando Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty
    Probably already mentioned but a quick way to make use of mentoring would be to have it as a tab in chat. That way it could be a central hub for those that have questions as well as those with answers without it being lost in general chat. If you want to be fancy maybe have it to where a mentor could be like a "finding a group" feature. You que for an activity you need help with and the mentors would get the alert to accept and gain mentor points upon completion that would level their mentor status which would include badges, titles, maybe cosmetics.
  • SycarenSycaren Member
    ashone wrote: »
    FFXIV has a good mentoring program. Over there the mentors can earn a special mentor only mount.As a mentee just finding someone who is willing to answer questions is a good thing.

    The FF14 mentor program is actually a bit of a joke since becoming a mentor is so easy. I'd see mentors consistently giving wrong advice, which is worse than getting no advice at all.
  • So in my personal opinion l think mentor programs are more designed for games without a guild focus. Further more I could totally see someone getting into Ashes a couple of years after release, as they log in for the first time they start talking in general... "before we will except you into our guild you must go through xyz from one of our mentors" thats merely one of 100 possible Ideas I can see going wrong. I think truly it has no place in a true mmo system, unless there's no guilds
  • Mentoring specifically in artisan skills would be cool, like taking people on with the title of Apprentice that levels up the longer you've been mentoring them; personally it would be nice rp wise to have someone teaching crafting skills that have bonuses attached to their skill title...also just thought of someone's profile summary saying for example John Doe, apprentice to Craftmaster Sarah Wayne.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    I dont understand the point in adding rewards to a mentor program.

    If there are rewards for it, people will run the program for those rewards. This means treating the other person involved as literally nothing more than a means to an end.

    Being a mentoree in a game where higher level players treat you as cattle is not a great way to start out in a new game. Nor is playing a game with a mentor program,only to find out that most players cheese it with alts to get the rewards, and no one uses it for actually mentoring new players.

    A mentor program should only ever exist for cooperation between players that know each other, and the higher level player specifically wants to help out that specific lower level player.

    As such, the only rewards on offer should be in getting that lower level player up to the state the higher level player is a bit faster. If that high level player is truly wanting to mentor that lower level player that is exactly what they would want out of the system
  • DreohDreoh Member
    Since we have player-made taverns, it'd be neat to have it tie into that somehow
  • More node xp than average for missions. Node attracts newbies, mentoring newbies becomes a social quest reinforcing the node.

    I wouldn't reward guild xp for it though, it will already be a guild advertising opportunity.
  • zestrozestro Member, Braver of Worlds
    For me the benefits need to equal what I can do solo or be exclusive -

    Mentor uniform skin (Make it look like a professor or something)
    Mentor mounts
    Mentor titles
    Special access to a Mentor quest line that opens up a "lounge area" that only mentors / mentees can access within the game. Think of it like the real life teacher's break room.
    Discord titles
    Game time or in-game compensation based on reviews from unique peers.
    Exclusive building skins / objects (chalk board you can draw on in your house as an example or a "university" house skin)
    Access to a special Mentor shop that gives you transmog potions that are mentor / school based (cap and gown bunny, etc) that uses mentor points as currency that you accrue based on how many people / how long you've mentored.

    Anyway these are just random ideas, I can expand on some if needed, but this is what would make me consider becoming a mentor.

  • psionstarpsionstar Member, Braver of Worlds
    There could be 2 different kinds of mentor system we could implement. It could both be implemented concurrently, need not be one or the other.

    1. Every player can recruit a mentee/mentor after reaching a certain level requirement and both will have some kind of mentor currency points earned after completing "daily quests".

    2. Any high level player can pair up to any low level player to complete a kind of instanced dungeon. Kinda like the mentee/mentor system in Archeage.
  • FFXIV's mentoring program had a mentoring chat - only new players with a green leaf mark and those who were selected to be mentors had access into it - something like this would be cool.

    It would also be cool to have some sort of in game "mentoring board" where newer players could post a note for help with whatever, and based on the category, a mentor who took up the job could earn "mentor credits" that could be spent on special items in a mentor shop or something.
  • ShoelidShoelid Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Rewards for a mentorship program seem like the obvious thing to do, but I think they discourage genuine helpfulness and encourage 'gaming the system'. Those who love helping out will do it even if no reward is offered, while there are many who will do anything to feel even a little bit special.

    In my opinion, an mentorship program should be super lightweight; players can opt into being marked as a mentor or a mentee. Only those who've opted in can see who else is opted in. If somebody is marked as a mentee, they can "thank" the mentor by clicking a button. The mentor will have a list of people who've thanked them, as well as a total amount of 'thanks' received. This lets the mentor easily contact anybody they've helped previously, plus they get to keep track of how many newbies they've helped over the months. In my experience, those that actually find satisfaction in teaching others will find this rewarding enough.

    Other people have pretty much covered what kind of tools would make mentorship easier. A learning chat channel for people to give questions and answers. Being able to match your friends' power level any time for any reason makes it a lot easer for people to get their friends engaged with the game.

    The only thing I haven't seen is being able to share information. In WoW, you are able to link the information of almost anything into the chat, and people are able to click and read the tooltip. This is incredibly useful for many reasons, but it would also help a mentor and mentee communicate. If there is an ability that somebody doesn't quite understand, they would be able to link the ability so that nobody is expected to remember, google search, or type out the full description of that ability. Another example: It would allow a mentee to link a piece of gear and ask "is this good for me?" rather than try and describe the piece in full detail
  • ChaosFactorChaosFactor Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    This is a super interesting concept that I don't think that I would've personally thought of as a game mechanic. But this is an INCREDIBLY powerful tool for the longevity for the game, therefore I'm interested in it.
    Mentoring to me of course has to reach past the obviously simple concept, that anyone can hold the hand of another player to teach them the various mechanics, and to introduce them to the game themselves. The question is, what can we include as game mechanics to further enable people to really create a constantly growing and adapting family of players within the game?
    Mentoring Quests
    There of course should be a benefit for both the trainer, and trainee. Mentoring quests can lead to bonuses after completion, things as simple as introducing combat, gathering, crafting etc. Completing these with both a trainer and a trainee(s) in party will allow strong catchup so they don't feel left behind, and early satisfaction with quest/goal completion providing satisfying rewards. These quests however MUST BE NON-LINEAR. If someone brought ME into a new rpg, and I was forced the learn how to press WASD and click 1-9 to cast spells, I would mald out. Bring me right over to PvP TT vs AB combat and node tutorials because those are new, and complex.
    Trainee Areas
    Locations that provide an array of simple gameplay mechanics teaching are essential for both new players to get a good feeling for the game, or veteran players to hone their skills. An obvious example for this would be training dummies. The only true issue I have for these training dummies is the abuse they provide in tandem with DPS reading ADDONS, which I would hope that Ashes will NEVER have. Providing something like a brazier that constantly casts a minor flame to to practice CC, Healing, and Spell canceling would be a super simple but very important learning tool.

    As usual, thank you very much for reading
    Sincerely,
    Chaos
  • maouwmaouw Member
    zestro wrote: »
    For me the benefits need to equal what I can do solo or be exclusive -

    Mentor uniform skin (Make it look like a professor or something)
    Mentor mounts
    Mentor titles
    Special access to a Mentor quest line that opens up a "lounge area" that only mentors / mentees can access within the game. Think of it like the real life teacher's break room.
    Discord titles
    Game time or in-game compensation based on reviews from unique peers.
    Exclusive building skins / objects (chalk board you can draw on in your house as an example or a "university" house skin)
    Access to a special Mentor shop that gives you transmog potions that are mentor / school based (cap and gown bunny, etc) that uses mentor points as currency that you accrue based on how many people / how long you've mentored.

    Anyway these are just random ideas, I can expand on some if needed, but this is what would make me consider becoming a mentor.

    Ooh I like that! Giving people bonus game-time for being a contributing member of the community might not be a bad idea! Just need to make sure it's not exploitable.
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  • Jam21Jam21 Member
    In short: Rewards should be big enough to encourage people to help newbies, but not big enough to encourage mass bot farms/alt acc creations.

    Also, If you really looking to implement such a system, I suggest looking not only for one-time rewards for "mentorship" when mentee reaches specific level, but rewards for actual mentorship - e.g. doing dungeons together, arenas, etc. Because only that way will help mentors be really mentors, and not just "accept mentees for reward and never even talk to them".

    The contents of such rewards cannot be adequately discussed while we do not know the final distribution model of AoC. F2P games, P2P subscription-based or B2P - all will have different choices of best rewards for this.
  • I made a similar thead called mentoring programs people had a lot of input on it so might be good to look at that So insert that thread here.

    Really it is about getting use ful information in to the right people. Lets say getting people raid ready ther should be a place for them to go to get raid ready. My experience in researching classes is I have to read and watch through quiete a bit of information before I get to the information that i need. So it needs to Stream lined.

    As far as getting people raid ready well. There people out there that Pride themselves in mentoring people ( making decent raid group) with just about any players. Poeple that have a lot of confidence in mentoring cuase they have been raid leaders in lots of MMOs. So my suggestion is get with the people that are actually good it and take it from there.

    Dps meter/combat tracker is really use full. :)o:) Well it is so.....
  • YuyukoyayYuyukoyay Member
    edited April 14
    Really depends on how you define the terms. Log Horizon had a really good idea of just level scaling you to their level to play with them. A lot of games already do that baseline and I do end up teaching newbs in FF14 sometimes. For rewards you can have a cosmetic item and maybe a chance to get gear for your real level up to the lower end of your level. Maybe some resource. The idea is it needs to be something not worth too much, but good enough to make people want to do it.

    Cosmetics are often perfect for this kind of thing because you wouldn't be able to get it anywhere else. So at the very least it would make people get experienced as a mentor. Each individual player will be a resource in this game. So there is something to gain by getting them to the minimum level of doing dungeons and doing raids.

    In other games players aren't really a resource except in classic WoW. You gain a lot in classic WoW by teaching Warrior's and Healers how to play because only limited classes could tank or heal. Everquest had this too, but the community back then was about a group effort. It wasn't about beating the content back then, but beating it with the people who were in your guild. So you did what was necessary to beat the content without throwing the people in your guild away.

    The meta in WoW is to kick bad players and only accept good ones. They did that initially in classic too, but now in more casual playerbase they are more likely to teach for the unique roles. I think it is very important to note what players will actual take part in a system like this. Hardcore players absolutely will never take part in a system like this because the game is about what they can gain and fuck everyone else. Casual players are more likely to take part in a system like this if the rewards are at a bare minimum. People probably won't do it for free initially, but eventually the community will see the value of mercenaries to add to their guilds. xD

    The exception is once the hardcore players essentially beat the game and possibly get bored is when they will train others how to play. However, the design of this game pretty much makes that scenario impossible. Since the idea is to make pvp so ingrained into the game that scenario never happens.

    I think it's fine if only the casuals train the totally clueless though. They often know just as much about the fundamentals of dungeoneering and raiding as a hardcore player will. Hardcore players are just the ones who will memorize things like the best grind spots, best in slot gear for every class, and other things to give them an advantage over others. So there won't be a quality gap between a casual experienced person and a hardcore person in this instance anyway. The only possibility hardcore players will teach are very minor things of improvement like looking at the debuff area, perfecting a rotation, and knowing when to use incredibly advanced abilities.

    In terms of skill there are probably more better casuals out there than hardcore players. Since the majority will be casual. MMO's fundamentally have a pretty limited skill ceiling so it isn't too hard to reach a maximum skill threshold in them. It's also why so many people play them as well though. Not all hardcore players are mechanically good at the game even if they complete all of the content in the game due to things like being carried by better players and using inferior builds for their role. That is inevitable because sometimes the most fun way to play isn't the most optimal.

    Also some degree of control over trolling would be nice.
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  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds
    What motivates any of us?

    Wealth, Power, Recognition/Fame, Mastery, Passion, ect


    Any or all of these things will drive a person to succeed, and these can all be applied to an MMORPG.

    A good Mentorship program needs Mentors of course, but it also needs people to mentor. What incentive to the mentees need? Well you're probably going to catch the most flies with honey, so offer a reward of some sort. They are already "getting something" in the form of knowledge and mentorship, but that's only going to attract a select few who are motivated by Mastery and Passion. Maybe give people who enter the Mentorship program additional quests for XP and Rewards/Gold, centered around their class or profession. These can then be turned into their Mentor or the Mentorship NPC. Then to full fill the "Recognition", once they've completed the program, give them a title or something they can show that "yes I did this" to others.

    On the other side, we have the Mentors. This is going to be much more driven by Passion, and somewhat by Recognition. Being "that player" that people come to and emulate is a driving force for many. Look how many Build Guide videos people make. Again, to reach the broader population, to incentive people to become Mentors, there should be some monetary reward, and ability for them to be recognized. Maybe even give them some ability to build/choose the tasks a Mentee will do. A Mentor for the Carpenter profession could have a list of quests they can have the Mentee complete, and assign 5 to them, the ones they think are most important or that the Mentee needs the most work on. I think this would give the Mentorship system more than a casual relationship, as the Mentor would get some control over what "curriculum" is being used. Then I think based on the success and completion of their Mentee, the Mentor gets paid.

    Because we all gatta get paid.
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