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Guild Gathering #3 - Measuring Success

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  • GovsGovs Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited April 20
    Most guilds have some type of a “common goal”. The guild’s ability to communicate that goal and to execute that goal where everyone feels that are being rewarded with whatever the common goal is, is in my definition a successful guild.

    I believe a good tool that would be beneficial to guilds is a “guild specific” achievement hierarchy. A quick example of this would be “The Guild has maintained 10 active players for 1 year” (Note: Active would need to be defined)

    Achievements can be for a multitude of things. This can provide new guild members the ability to have a holistic view of what that guild has achieved and the type of guild it is. An example of this would be: “A PVP focused guild has no achievements in any PVP type game functions”

    I don’t have an opinion on a Guild Win/Loss Ratio, but maybe a count of “wins” and an achievement for it would be better “fun” for the guild.
  • QuinQuin Member, Alpha One
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    Glorious Ashes community - we're excited to continue our new series called Guild Gatherings! Guild Gathering topics are a "reverse Q&A" similar to our Dev Discussions, where we ask you about your thoughts on everything related to guilds.

    Our team has compiled a list of questions we'd love to get your feedback on regarding guild tools, gameplay, your previous experiences, and more. Join in on our Guild Gatherings and share how your gaming family is special to you!


    Guild Gathering #3 - Measuring Success
    How do you measure your success as a guild in a game? What kinds of things would you like to see in Ashes of Creation to help you measure that success?

    Keep an eye out for our next Guild Gathering topic regarding team building!


    Not a big fan of guilds because they tend to be a major distraction trying to manage and coordinate.
    I would measure my success in the game based on how many goals I can set and complete for myself.

    - Collecting item sets from quests
    - Hording Valuables
    - Grouping with New People
    - Hanging out with friends
    - Engaging in mutual PvP
    - Unlocking NFT cash shop items :)
    - Major RP support GTA 5 levels (jobs)

    I don't know how people measure "success" but I would guess that it doesn't matter so long as we are all having fun trying.
  • AztexAztex Member
    edited April 21
    Hi!
    Besides the usual leaderboards for PVP, Dungeons, etc., I would like to see something more related to the node system.
    I also believe Guilds need more reasons to search for nodes where they can find rival Guilds simillar in power, quantity of active members and type of gameplay, whilst also making sure that a Patreon Guilds feel the responsability of that status and could lose its Patreon position to another Guild.

    For the time beeing, I have 3 ideas:

    1. Node Success Rate
    Each Node has a leaderboard with quests/events related to it's Node Type. A rank is given to the Guilds whose members have successfully completed quests, dungeons, events and other activities. The ones at the top get bigger bonuses and a special icon/tag/whatever.

    2. Guild Patreons Conquering
    The best 3/6/9 guilds of the ranking leaderboard would have the opportunity to "fight" (a conquest event related to that Node Type, which means that PVP would be exclusive to Military Nodes) and take the Guild Patreon statuts from one of the current ones. Of course, they would need to bet or pay something for the oportunity to challenge the Patreon Guild of their choice.
    I believe the current Guild Patreon system can be refined. This idea would make each and every Node have its meaning in a way that makes Guilds scatter in search for certain Nodes where they might find rivals simillar to them and a place where they belong.

    3. Node-Link Patreon contracts
    Node-Link would be a contract that Patreon Guilds from different Node Types would forge with each other. A Guild Patreon would share bonuses, quests, events, etc. with all those other guilds members who play in their Node, and vice-versa. Maximum is 3 contracts, one for each node type (example: an Economic Node Patreon could make contracts with 1 Military Node Patreon, 1 Divine Node Patreon and 1 Scientific Node Patreon).
    This idea is still raw, but it opens a lot of possibilities.


    PS: Keep up with these threads for gathering player opinions. I'm just a new fan of this game, still don't know a lot about it, but I like very much where this is going.
  • Our guild is coming from a competitive FPS community (Destiny) But our aim there was always mainly World First attempts and Records of the sort when it came to the games Raids. They were a big deal when they dropped and having won 2 worlds first our clan has had articles written about them and have even appeared in Guinness Book of World Records Gamer Edition.

    This level of acclaim is what helped to strengthen and grow our members to become even more invested in the community and began out reaching to other branches the game would offer people including streaming contracts. I feel guilds become stronger because of the community they create and nurture. When a guild feels rewarded for their accomplishments they put more effort into other aspects of the game.

    Other aspects needed particularly in MMOs is a good way to structure the guilds leadership structure. Just scan over recruitment messages for a hour and you will see dozens of ways guilds have preemptively set up a Chain of Command already. This being implemented correctly can make that measure of success more broad on a guilds level. Say Siege Day is here and the 'Warmaster' of a guild has to take this side of the castle, that's his goal, and in taking it he finds his own small unit of success for his guild regardless on the overall level of success in the event itself. This structure can also be a nice way for guilds to reward success in their rankings. If a low down the chain 'Knight' is solely responsible for a great victory his success should be noted by the guild in the form of maybe a promotion of rank.

    In conclusion I hope Ashes can nail both the importance of self-acclaim and has a robust system set up for guilds to structure their rankings.
  • xilodonxilodon Member, Intrepid Pack
    I doubt anything will feel as satisfying as successfully sieging a long running rival and watching their metropolis burn to the ground. That will be the sort of event that has months or even years of buildup, and other milestones will likely pale in comparison.
  • I think it could be fun if there was like a guild performance measuring algorythm that measured the guild's overall performance and allowed people to compete about being the best Guild overall, no matter what guild activities they preferred people would still have a way of measuring and saying "I am the 'that and that' top ranking guild".
    Just thought of a way it might be possible to make a very widely accepting and largely competitive system for everyone. An algorythm like that is most likely not going to be very accurate in the beginning, but it doesn't have to be. It could always be improving and changing right?
  • ChaosFactorChaosFactor Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    As I'm sure plenty of other people have already said by this point, people look for their guild to allow them to be Known. People want to find identity in their guild, to have something they're proud to rep.
    So what kinds of things can a guild have, to truly be incredibly unique?
    -Trophies such as boss skulls or memorabilia
    -Powerful tools such as unique siege weapons or flying mounts
    -Unique appearances such as banners on yourself, animals, and transportation that you own
    -A sign of domination, like your guild crest being PLASTERED directly on top of the map showing the areas you control
    -Leaderboards can always be a good an easy solution to the representations of your guilds worth
    Thanks for reading,
    Chaos
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Attempting to accurately measure the success of guilds is a futile endevour in a game like Ashes, imo.

    My guild may exist in order to raid top end content, but someone elses guild may exist specifically to prevent my guild from raiding that content.

    You have your family guilds that have no real purpose, you have your crafting and trading guilds, you have your guilds that exist to feed players to top end raid or PvP guilds, you have your minor guilds that basically exist to support larger guilds, and you have your guilds that exist so that solo players stop having people spam invites.

    More important'y, most guilds will be a mixture of these things.

    The success of any given guild is 100% subjective to that guild - and a good number of the things many guilds exist for simply can't be tracked.The best you can really do is come up with a list of actions of note that guilds can do, and count them. Even then though, many guilds won't care about these actions, and almost all guilds will ahve some of them that they don't care about.

    Honestly, as a question this is no different to asking to measure the success of an individual player in the game. The answer to that is 100% determined by what that player wanted to do, and it is potentially different for every single player.
  • I'm happy with guild "server firsts" and castle siege achievements being recognized, some guild statistics absolutely should be public knowledge. Information about guild halls and associated node sizes, whether the mayor is in a guild, etc. Much more than that could end up being too much for me as I believe they can lead to toxic chat.
    What good is a PvP guild if all the statistics show they are amazing, fuelling ego problems, but in reality they are a bunch of jerks to live next door to? Perhaps that would self balance, but I would prefer to see "word of mouth" back up all the other details, like a guild being heavily into naval content or specializing in a particular artisan subset. That encourages social interaction rather than just looking at statistics presented in game or collated externally.
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  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited April 21
    My issue with guild leader boards that rank by some sort of scoring system: the top guilds find the most efficient repetitive method to generate points and then spam that activity. A possible alternative that I've seen in other games is a leaderboard for each dungeon. Another approach to consider is to have different categories of ranking - e.g. guilds can be ranked on their: Weekly profit margin, bounty score, Boss score, Exp gained, popularity, Node contribution, Artisan Produce score etc.

    My core ideal in guilds is working together with your friends and it should leave a mark on the world: capture a territory and hang our guild banner in the area, the idea of leaving a legacy.

    The patron guild idea goes a long way toward this, and has great potential to tie into all the other game systems (economy, node growth, node defences, etc.). I also love contributing resources to a pool that has a payout at the end of the week.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • uaouao Member, Braver of Worlds
    For me the success of a guild is measured by the following:
    1. how active is the guild chat?
    2. how much time can pass without any internal drama?
    3. how often do members cooperate to do stuff together?

    These 3 questions should always aid as primary concepts to improve upon when thinking about game design decisions regarding guilds.
  • How many max levels are in the guild. No Other levels matter.

    How much end game pve content they completed.

    How many of the max levels in the guild have the rarest items in the game. Cosmetic or not. It really sends a message when the shittiest person in your guild has rarer stuff than 95% of the playerbase.

    Their presence in PvP. What kind of PvP content they are doing. There is a difference between a pug doing PvP caravan raiding and organized castle combat in a large scale.

    How many castles they defend or lost. Even losing a castle is a measure of success considering how hard it's going to be to get one at all.


    I'll end it with an indicator that the guild system isn't working properly. If people want your guild gone on a world scale because that means it's been used for griefing. Most players will like competition to some extent and they shouldn't care if a guild exists. If people negatively care if a guild exists it means the guild system isn't balanced properly into the world. Most should just not care or actually like opposing guilds because they allow them to partake into pvp.

    I also wouldn't care so much if a small degree of the player base hates a guild because that's going to happen due to people not understanding the structure of the game. Some people are also just psychotic. So this measure only applies for if it applies to the majority of the nodes in an area.
    zZJyoEK.gif

    U.S. East
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    Perhaps measure a guild`s success by the longevity of player retention.

    If there was a guild finder that showed a metric for a guild stating average tenure in the clan was x days.. then sure must be a good clan to be with.. But then again might also show a clan full of inactives!

    Just a thought.
  • ManweBManweB Member
    For me sucess in a guild is measured by the impact that has on the world in PvP, PvE, economy, social interaction, history...
    It isn't necessary a guild ranking, a guild should impact how the game is played by everyone.
  • ZhijnZhijn Member
    The way I see things in order to make a guild esential to the community is to reward something if not unique, really hard to get via being an active part of the guild.
    For example a guild can claim a certain territory next to their guild hall. Having this territory will generate income for you. May it be reward points in order to buy pvp gear or gold old super rare crafting materials. Also the let's say more you win the more you expand or when lose, shrink.
    Territory could be conteste or stolen when inactivity hits. Also titles revoked. It can also be a cool emote happening when a certain number of guild members arrive in an area. Yes an achievement tracker is also good, maybe let's say the raid x has 11 bosses. May it be only 1 difficulty or more, but in order to complete the whole raid achievement you also have to kill them in a different way, for example like achovements work in wow.
    After you finish this let's say you get a title or the means to learn a spell or a higher rank of a spell. Also a good idea would be a guild bank, where let's say in order to apply to a guild you have an application fee, member fee / month and of course guild improvements will be payed with gold/in game currency,leaving the option of a corrupt or fair leader. Maybe set raids to be guild only for exalple, or good rewarding raids to be guild only. Yes I know some would say bla bla I don't have time for guild etc, but there will be guilds who are focusing exactly on ppl with less time to play therefore would bring together like-minded people. Also one of the things I would implement would be server language only. If you play on eng server mtalk only English or whatever language server.
  • If they are having fun then we are succeeding
  • BrianDaddyBrianDaddy Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Guild Gathering #3 - Measuring Success
    How do you measure your success as a guild in a game? What kinds of things would you like to see in Ashes of Creation to help you measure that success?
    I want to throw out what will probably be an unpopular opinion, guild ranking in a general sense is bad. Almost all of the comments I read above talk about ranking guilds against each other to determine "best guild." Once you rank you are implicitly telling players how to play the game. To me, that seems to be disservice to the massive nature of AoC. There will be five PvP castles and one server first for PvE content. Those six or so guilds are obviously on top at any particular moment. I feel like having a big banner telling me my guild's rank on the server based on an equation is just going to push people into a strange guild rank hunting meta. Please don't manufacture the fun out of the game. I believe the major guilds succeeding in PvP and PvE will be automatically rewarded by most of the systems available in the game.

    What I would like to see are measures of a guild's success compared to itself. For instance, even if my guild is not the first to down PvE content, a note or achievement with the date of completion, or better yet a trophy for a guild hall. Even if my guild doesn't sit in a castle, a hall of records about which node sieges we fought, or a cool furniture piece indicating how much money our guild stole from caravans. I would love to see thing like this implemented rather than a single equation ranking.

    I agree with a lot of what Soggy is saying. Implementing some cosmetic rewards for halls and houses would be a great way to say hey we killed this dragon here is his head as you walk in our Guild hall. But overall Guild success to me is just participation and relationships that we build while doing all those things.
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  • IrieMonIrieMon Member
    Lots of laughs with fellow guildies
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    akabear wrote: »
    Perhaps measure a guild`s success by the longevity of player retention.

    If there was a guild finder that showed a metric for a guild stating average tenure in the clan was x days.. then sure must be a good clan to be with.. But then again might also show a clan full of inactives!

    Just a thought.

    You could pair it with Playtime of the average guild member.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • I just love having an active guild that has fun and sets weekly events. A great group to chat and play with.
  • SunboySunboy Member
    gg_measuring_success_1920.gif
    Guild Gathering #3 - Measuring Success
    How do you measure your success as a guild in a game? What kinds of things would you like to see in Ashes of Creation to help you measure that success?

    Question 1: Fun
    Question 2: Shit do i know, I'm not a game developer. Be more confident in yourself and product.
    Much Love 💕
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    ManweB wrote: »
    For me sucess in a guild is measured by the impact that has on the world in PvP, PvE, economy, social interaction, history...
    It isn't necessary a guild ranking, a guild should impact how the game is played by everyone.

    That might be interesting to have some means to see who achieved what and affected what
  • As well as knowing acheivements, I feel (and this may be unhealthy for small/forming guilds) knowing how many active players the guild has had of late and especially how many active groups have been formed in the last month, and how many corrupted have been in the guild of late.

    If the guild is only recruiting noobs to get perks for themselves rather than fostering a guild full of active players would be nice to know.

    The latter would hint towards tollerance of bullies in guild, and may even be a point of attraction for corrupt players to form a guild, but that would also make them more of a target guild to be wary of for others.

  • RexInMonteRexInMonte Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    Goals for me are very personal and I think this is also true for a guild.
    It depends on what you are about, forcing a guild in any direction to show their success might feel stressful and can break the sandbox nature.

    With that being said, having the proper stats to track your personal goals would be great.
    The most simple example would be achievements, but of course also additional stats and maybe some historical records.

    Being able to look back in the records to see how long we kept a castle, what wars we fought in, can be really great.
  • I merely stated how it is in other games as well. If just adventuring in Ashes is fun enough then I probably won't care about the achievements of the guild. That's kind of how I hope the game turns out. It was a fundamental problem with WoW throughout it's entire lifespan is that game was never about the individual. It was about the guild and only the guild. So you would go out to do things that were not fun to have a minor amount of fun later.

    Older MMO's are by design about the individuals and about the community. Just doing content with random other people is fun when the game is built to be fun in every single system. The individuals were rewarded for doing what they wanted to do and the community is rewarded for being positive about the game.

    In the older MMOs the community would make their own content sometimes like in Lineage 2 with their version of the corruption system. If you did not have your guild logged in then you probably just went exploring and found stuff to do, and sometimes that would be a rogue player terrorizing hundreds of players in PvP. I've seen random people in the city make a party to take down players before.

    My hopes is that the node system really do bring about a greater sense of community than in other games so guild's hold on the world is greatly diminished. Guilds are usually why zergs exist and zergs are my least favorite part about the genre.

    I think the idea of what Guilds were supposed to be were lost to time. As they exist to essentially be a friend's list in most MMOs. I like how it's possible that you may not even be allied with your own guild at all times.

    I would count it as a success in the game if people do not rely on Guilds as the only way to do organized content in the game though.
    zZJyoEK.gif

    U.S. East
  • IshviIshvi Member
    In "Lunar Sculptor", the game is interesting and detailed, it is also interesting for you, maybe take a look at something
  • Maybe an MVP and/or an awards/badges system to track who contributes the most that week/month, kind of like member of the month type shit
    ..::.. Leader of The #1 Guild: Lethal Intentions ($86,000+ In prize winnings) ..::..
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  • DABZ16DABZ16 Member
    rankings within a guild would be nice. Like when you first join a guild you start at a lvl 1 “recruit” and you just gain access to guild halls and can give experience to the guild by either donating to it or grouping with other guild mates. Lvl 2 initiate you can start applying the guild emblem or colors to armor or tabard pieces but you still have to lvl up in the guild with other guild members. Lvl 3 you’re an associate and no longer have to group (but you would gain more the guild if you did). All the way until you’re a couple spots below the highest which is guild leader then the guild leader can promote other than that. Then you get other rewards as a guild as the guild lvls up like a lvl 2/3 guild can claim or buy a guild hall. I don’t know how the system is set up for guild halls but it’s just an idea.
  • ShoelidShoelid Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I see a lot of people wanting to create crafting/economy focused guilds, so I think there should be things that mark guild success in those areas.
    I think a guild ledger to track crafting and profits would be cool.
    I suppose being able to pool gold together to win an economic mayorship could be seen as success, so that system should cater to that sort of guild play.
    Being able to visibly 'sponsor' another guild. If everything a guild created and sold had a customized flavor text, that'd be pretty cool. If you inspect a high level player, and see that everything he uses has been branded by your guild, that's pretty cool.

    A trend I see is that people want their success to be written in stone. PvP rankings and documented world first clears... There should be ways of a community/economy focused guild to make a visible mark on the world too.
  • digitalwinddigitalwind Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited April 23
    Apart from being the first to kill a boss, there is a logical progression of "success" on the PvE scene

    1. Has the team killed the boss(es)
    2. Has the team completed the dungeon
    3. Has the team done both enough for everyone to be geared
    4. Has the team been able to farm the Dungeon for mats, alts, and financial gain.

    Once #4 has been achieved it will be done endlessly for the profit of everyone until new content is released, the drops become 2nd rate, or everyone is not just bored, but sick of the dungeon. This can take many months as the players capable of achieving #4 will probably have a high tolerance for the grind.

    There is no "success" for PvP. It is about the Thrill of the Kill. "Sucess" will only come when they have players on farm (pracy, solo ganking, nodes)....but then there is always the other pvp guilds. The sport never ends.
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