Personally, I don't think summoning should be in the game. If you want to play with your friends, then plan that before the next game session, so that you can be at the same place at a certain time. Like in the real world where you at some point in your life have arranged meetings with your friends or colleagues etc. Maybe this game could actually teach something valuable to players, like time management, being on time, managing your schedule. Things many people don't have in the real world, unfortunately.
Sure it's a video game, but it still feels stupid.
Personally, I don't think magic should be in the game.
Maybe this game could actually teach something valuable to players, like, science.
The idea of limiting the summon to a location is good, but it could be improved. Maybe if the family summon was only at a "Family Hearth" which would be built in a house in one of the family members homes. As a way of bringing family members back home if they wander too far from home.
I just want this family summon crap to be nerfed into the ground or removed. Any sensible idea that nerfs it has my vote.
Re-posting this, just in the hopes it gets seen again.
If we absolutely have to have the Family Summon, which I'd love to see gone the way of the Tulnar, then an implementation like this would be my preference.
LMAO
Let's nerf Corruption until it's non-existent, too.
Better, yet, let's nerf PvP til it's like it is in New World.
Corruption and PvP are an integral part of the game design, as is the concept of No Fast Travel and Meaningful Journey Times. Getting rid of Family Summon fits those values.
Corruption and PvP are an integral part of the game design, as is the concept of No Fast Travel and Meaningful Journey Times. Getting rid of Family Summon fits those values.
Except, No Fast Travel is not an integral part of the Ashes game design.
Limited fast travel is a core concept - Family Summons, as designed, fits the values of that core concept.
That being said, with all the current restrictions on Family Summons, I don't understand the circumstances under which people will choose to use it.
Corruption and PvP are an integral part of the game design, as is the concept of No Fast Travel and Meaningful Journey Times. Getting rid of Family Summon fits those values.
Except, No Fast Travel is not an integral part of the Ashes game design.
Limited fast travel is a core concept - Family Summons, as designed, fits the values of that core concept.
That being said, with all the current restrictions on Family Summons, I don't understand the circumstances under which people will choose to use it.
I've seen your comments on threads before. I'm not getting into a year-long debate with you.
No, wise of him to not want to get in to a semantics argument with someone willing to literally argue the definition of semantics before they debate the point at hand.
Corruption and PvP are an integral part of the game design, as is the concept of No Fast Travel and Meaningful Journey Times. Getting rid of Family Summon fits those values.
Except, No Fast Travel is not an integral part of the Ashes game design.
Limited fast travel is a core concept - Family Summons, as designed, fits the values of that core concept.
That being said, with all the current restrictions on Family Summons, I don't understand the circumstances under which people will choose to use it.
Wait what? No fast travel IS an integral part of the game design.
It's why Caravans and dropping your gathered resources on death are a big deal.
It's why only a science metropolis has access to it.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2021
Scientific Metro with fast travel is more than 1% of the game. Gross exaggeration does not actually support your claim.
And Scientific Nodes are not the only means of fast travel - hence Family Summons.
Scientific Metro with fast travel is more than 1% of the game. Gross exaggeration does not actually support your claim.
And Scientific Nodes are not the only means of fast travel - hence Family Summons.
Do you actually think you're going to spend one cumulative hour out of every 100 at a scientific node teleporter?
In any form of gameplay?
The only scenario I would believe that is if you become a trader who specializes in going between scientific nodes, and that's only after you've played enough time to get to that point.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2021
It's not about what one individual will do.
It's about what is available in the game.
I don't spend an hour on fast travel in WoW.
If that's how you're calculating fast travel, fast travel in WoW is about 1%, too.
Ashes of Creation has fast travel. Severely limited fast travel.
But, severely limited fast travel is not the same thing as no fast travel.
Family Summons have a lot of restrictions - which is in keeping with the Ashes value of very limited fast travel.
It's not about what one individual will do.
It's about what is available in the game.
I don't spend an hour on fast travel in WoW.
If that's how you're calculating fast travel, fast travel in WoW is about 1%, too.
Ashes of Creation has fast travel. Severely limited fast travel.
But, severely limited fast travel is not the same thing as no fast travel.
Family Summons have a lot of restrictions - which is in keeping with the Ashes value of very limited fast travel.
@Dygz
Going back through your last few posts here, I agree with you that the concept of Ashes fast travel is that it be limited, not that there be none.
However, that limit was - until Steven blurted out his lack-of-a-plan for the family summons - was that fast travel was only ever from and to specific points in the games world, and those specific points are known to every player on the server.
What this means is that the fast travel associated with a scientific node is something players will work in to the strategy of any activity they plan on undertaking. If they are intercepting caravans from a node that is part of a scientific metropolis nodes ZoI, then they will attack that caravan as far away from any node as possible, to reduce the impact of people fast traveling to try and help.
On the other hand, the family summons has no restriction in terms of location - and this is the issue.
This means players can fast travel to basically any location in the open world they want - with enough planning (and guilds *will* plan these things out).
This means that a guild of 24 players can scan an area 8 times larger looking for targets, simply taking 1 member each from three families. As soon as any one of these groups finds a target, they can then summon in the full force of 24 players.
Even if a family can only summon one player in a reasonable amount of time, that still leaves that guild of 24 to be able to scan an area twice as large as it would otherwise, while still being able to bring down that full force of 24 players on any caravan - it just means they need to organize themselves in to 12 families rather than 3.
This is not something the caravan can plan against specifically, as there is no restriction as to where this fast travel can occure. This is the issue - this is the lack of restriction.
Even if there are restrictions in place as to what you can be carrying on you, how many people you can have in your family and how many people you can summon in a given period of time, the fact that the family summon is essentially unrestricted in terms of locations that you can *summon to* is a problem.
As long as this fact remains unchanged, the family summons will be abused. Pure and simple fact.
This is why Vhaeynes idea from earlier in this thread is the best I have seen for making the family summons viable.
From what I'm seeing, it seems like the biggest issue people have is a guild teleporting across the world to find a target to PvP.
Couldn't they just give a debuff that doesn't allow the players who were summoned or did the summoning to engage in PvP unless in self defence for a set amount of time?
There could also be monitoring put in place which checks if once summoned, the characters actually play together.
But, if it's all just about the "family" playing together, then teleporting them to the Family Home at the freehold is better. Reduces the likelihood of abusing the system.
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Family Summons: Long duration cast (30 seconds to a minute) with an approximate 30 minute cooldown that slowly summons each of your family members to your location (up to eight members).
Players cannot be summoned in the following cases:
While in combat, if they are corrupted, or if they are engaged in an event, such as node wars, guild wars, sieges, arenas or participation in the caravan system.
If they have mats, gatherables or certs in their inventory.
This will be tested in Alpha-2.
Family Summons: Long duration cast (30 seconds to a minute) with an approximate 30 minute cooldown that slowly summons each of your family members to your location (up to eight members).
Players cannot be summoned in the following cases:
While in combat, if they are corrupted, or if they are engaged in an event, such as node wars, guild wars, sieges, arenas or participation in the caravan system.
If they have mats, gatherables or certs in their inventory.
This will be tested in Alpha-2.
I'm not sure what you are gaining by posting this, or what you think you are gaining.
Yes, we know the restrictions that are in place, and we know that there will be testing in alpha 2.
The thing is, as I have said to you many, many times, those restrictions do not hold back a guild of organized people from abusing the family summons, and that organization will not be in place in alpha 2 to be put to the test.
I really am curious, what exactly is it you think this post added to the discussion?
Balance with having a major cast time, like 5 minutes, and both the summoner and the summon need to be casting it.
This way summoning to a hostile area will be dangerous. Being summoned from a hostile area will be dangerous. And itll persuade people to walk distances they think would be shorter than that cast time. Along with the other restrictions.
This is a soft limitation, its not that you cant summon to anywhere, its that the risk now equals the reward.
Balance with having a major cast time, like 5 minutes, and both the summoner and the summon need to be casting it.
This way summoning to a hostile area will be dangerous. Being summoned from a hostile area will be dangerous. And itll persuade people to walk distances they think would be shorter than that cast time. Along with the other restrictions.
This is a soft limitation, its not that you cant summon to anywhere, its that the risk now equals the reward.
One sec gonna heat up my hot pockets while I summon. * comes back to corpse*
How big is the world going to be that two family members are going to be separated by an hour+ worth of travel time? Even in Classic WoW(I know there are flight paths) I've spent ~20minutes just getting somewhere to start content such as a dungeon. If time is precious I think a bit of coordination should be done beforehand. Maybe just have the family hearth be done exclusively to the home node rather than being a home node to some external point?
Comments
Pretty sure they already said you won't be able to bring mats
Maybe this game could actually teach something valuable to players, like, science.
that's why I said "along with"
Re-posting this, just in the hopes it gets seen again.
If we absolutely have to have the Family Summon, which I'd love to see gone the way of the Tulnar, then an implementation like this would be my preference.
Let's nerf Corruption until it's non-existent, too.
Better, yet, let's nerf PvP til it's like it is in New World.
Corruption and PvP are an integral part of the game design, as is the concept of No Fast Travel and Meaningful Journey Times. Getting rid of Family Summon fits those values.
Full loot! Count me in!
New World... Count me out...
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Limited fast travel is a core concept - Family Summons, as designed, fits the values of that core concept.
That being said, with all the current restrictions on Family Summons, I don't understand the circumstances under which people will choose to use it.
I've seen your comments on threads before. I'm not getting into a year-long debate with you.
No, wise of him to not want to get in to a semantics argument with someone willing to literally argue the definition of semantics before they debate the point at hand. That is because you are unable to imagine any playstyle other than your own.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
Wait what? No fast travel IS an integral part of the game design.
It's why Caravans and dropping your gathered resources on death are a big deal.
It's why only a science metropolis has access to it.
Precisely what I said.
And Scientific Nodes are not the only means of fast travel - hence Family Summons.
Do you actually think you're going to spend one cumulative hour out of every 100 at a scientific node teleporter?
In any form of gameplay?
The only scenario I would believe that is if you become a trader who specializes in going between scientific nodes, and that's only after you've played enough time to get to that point.
It's about what is available in the game.
I don't spend an hour on fast travel in WoW.
If that's how you're calculating fast travel, fast travel in WoW is about 1%, too.
Ashes of Creation has fast travel. Severely limited fast travel.
But, severely limited fast travel is not the same thing as no fast travel.
Family Summons have a lot of restrictions - which is in keeping with the Ashes value of very limited fast travel.
You're putting the cart before the horse.
Going back through your last few posts here, I agree with you that the concept of Ashes fast travel is that it be limited, not that there be none.
However, that limit was - until Steven blurted out his lack-of-a-plan for the family summons - was that fast travel was only ever from and to specific points in the games world, and those specific points are known to every player on the server.
What this means is that the fast travel associated with a scientific node is something players will work in to the strategy of any activity they plan on undertaking. If they are intercepting caravans from a node that is part of a scientific metropolis nodes ZoI, then they will attack that caravan as far away from any node as possible, to reduce the impact of people fast traveling to try and help.
On the other hand, the family summons has no restriction in terms of location - and this is the issue.
This means players can fast travel to basically any location in the open world they want - with enough planning (and guilds *will* plan these things out).
This means that a guild of 24 players can scan an area 8 times larger looking for targets, simply taking 1 member each from three families. As soon as any one of these groups finds a target, they can then summon in the full force of 24 players.
Even if a family can only summon one player in a reasonable amount of time, that still leaves that guild of 24 to be able to scan an area twice as large as it would otherwise, while still being able to bring down that full force of 24 players on any caravan - it just means they need to organize themselves in to 12 families rather than 3.
This is not something the caravan can plan against specifically, as there is no restriction as to where this fast travel can occure. This is the issue - this is the lack of restriction.
Even if there are restrictions in place as to what you can be carrying on you, how many people you can have in your family and how many people you can summon in a given period of time, the fact that the family summon is essentially unrestricted in terms of locations that you can *summon to* is a problem.
As long as this fact remains unchanged, the family summons will be abused. Pure and simple fact.
This is why Vhaeynes idea from earlier in this thread is the best I have seen for making the family summons viable.
Couldn't they just give a debuff that doesn't allow the players who were summoned or did the summoning to engage in PvP unless in self defence for a set amount of time?
There could also be monitoring put in place which checks if once summoned, the characters actually play together.
Long duration cast (30 seconds to a minute) with an approximate 30 minute cooldown that slowly summons each of your family members to your location (up to eight members).
Players cannot be summoned in the following cases:
While in combat, if they are corrupted, or if they are engaged in an event, such as node wars, guild wars, sieges, arenas or participation in the caravan system.
If they have mats, gatherables or certs in their inventory.
This will be tested in Alpha-2.
I'm not sure what you are gaining by posting this, or what you think you are gaining.
Yes, we know the restrictions that are in place, and we know that there will be testing in alpha 2.
The thing is, as I have said to you many, many times, those restrictions do not hold back a guild of organized people from abusing the family summons, and that organization will not be in place in alpha 2 to be put to the test.
I really am curious, what exactly is it you think this post added to the discussion?
I trust Steven enough that if the family summons turns out to be abusable then it will be nerfed.
This way summoning to a hostile area will be dangerous. Being summoned from a hostile area will be dangerous. And itll persuade people to walk distances they think would be shorter than that cast time. Along with the other restrictions.
This is a soft limitation, its not that you cant summon to anywhere, its that the risk now equals the reward.
I just don't believe the abuses will become apparent until players are fully organized - which won't happen until the game is live.
One sec gonna heat up my hot pockets while I summon. * comes back to corpse*