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PVP vs PVE
Jiraiya
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
There has been a lot of discussion of PVP vs PVM. Something that seems to be a very common trend is that a lot of people who enjoy PVM exclusively are looked down upon due to their "insecurities and lack of skill". I couldn't disagree more about this statement. Having a strong PVP and PVM background from many different games there has always been a clear distinction between the two fields of thoughts.
An idea that came to mind (and i realize people have mentioned things like this before) - but having area's that have strong PVM content in it but be in a PVP zone. Much like the wilderness in Runescape or the zones in WoW. These area's would be rich with resources or npc's that would make PVM'ers realize the risk of going out to get it can or cannot outweigh the reward.
On other small thing that I have really come to notice in many MMO's is that the PVP side can be a very niche group of players and can sometimes (not always) be extremely toxic for the game. They hate any updates to PVP that decided by non PVP'ers. I know the same can be said for PVM'ers but these are things that I have noticed.
I do like the idea of sieges and plan to partake in them - but I would not want to have new players be forced into having to find a guild to simply play the game. Some players are the more solo types of players. I know this isn't a theme that Ashes is going for but I don't think they want to have new players vs the superpowers either. Essentially any new players after Beta even would be at a severe disadvantage vs guilds that have already been formed and established.
An idea that came to mind (and i realize people have mentioned things like this before) - but having area's that have strong PVM content in it but be in a PVP zone. Much like the wilderness in Runescape or the zones in WoW. These area's would be rich with resources or npc's that would make PVM'ers realize the risk of going out to get it can or cannot outweigh the reward.
On other small thing that I have really come to notice in many MMO's is that the PVP side can be a very niche group of players and can sometimes (not always) be extremely toxic for the game. They hate any updates to PVP that decided by non PVP'ers. I know the same can be said for PVM'ers but these are things that I have noticed.
I do like the idea of sieges and plan to partake in them - but I would not want to have new players be forced into having to find a guild to simply play the game. Some players are the more solo types of players. I know this isn't a theme that Ashes is going for but I don't think they want to have new players vs the superpowers either. Essentially any new players after Beta even would be at a severe disadvantage vs guilds that have already been formed and established.
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If so, AoC will absolutely have a lot of PVE content in PVP zones. Every zone is a pvp zone so all pve content will create world pvp. Whether you choose to participate in this content is up to you as there are penalties for doing so. I personally will not kill on sight unless someone is a known POS or are a rival guild. I prefer to make friends (especially in this game where citizens banded have a lot of power and influence of the ever changing lands).
PvP will not be a very niche group of players in Ashes of Creation. This game will be FULL of pvp first players. As of now, only 20% of dungeons/raids will be instanced. That means that 80% of the raids and dungeons will be open world pvp should a player or group decide to engage. This style will be much different than most players are used to and it will require intelligent strategies from guilds everywhere to accurately execute quick decisions or die. It's going to be fun!
pvp players would clearly win in that fight, I mean that's what they do all the time....
(kidding) my real answer is this - players might tend to end up in one or the other camp for the most part but they are both very important for the long term health of a game like this. A solely pve designed game is usually very content heavy, players tend to burn through non-progression areas pretty quickly and that places a lot of demand on a development team to keep them entertained - but its important for world buliding and immersion. With pvp the excitement mostly comes from other people and forming teams, so once the entry battlefields/mechanics are setup it basically keeps a more steady beneficial population playing the game external to updates. Both sides provide important feedback on balance and gameplay issues.
So it might be easy to think that high end raiding guilds and pvp contribute to toxicity (and any competitive gameplay does to an extent), but those features are also a major reason players come to the game at all. You can't just see the bad without the good too. The best way to fight toxicity is for the community to call it out and not incentivize it, and for the devs to address balance concerns - not to ignore one for the sake of the other (as some might suggest) or else you'll find that there is no community left to protect.
I never said it would be niche, i was just stating that from previous game experiences all the pvp'ers knew it each other whether they be in separate guilds or not. And by PVM yes i mean PVE - not sure if this really matters or not but yeah I do realize ashes will have a lot of PVE content. I do hope that other PVP'ers will have the same mindset as you when you say that you will not kill just on sight. That would help keep the griefing levels down
The corruption system has been described as a system that will keep griefing levels down. We don't know the specifics of it yet. Inevitably some people are going to find the final implementation of it too strict and some will find it too lenient. Can't please everyone. But it's been sold to us as something that will do exactly that, keep griefing levels down. Down how far? One person's definition of "down" might be more than another person's definition of it. Who knows at this point.
People are worrying too much about corrupted players. What are you going to do when a node declares war on your node or a guild declares war on your guild. And then they spend all day in and around your node killing everyone they see. They won't be able to loot anything off of you, that only applies to the corruption system and red players. But they'll be able to stop you from going out harvesting and doing pve.
What are you gonna do? You can round up 40 players to go kill a pve boss for the 100th time. Round up 40 players or more to go kill the people that keep fucking with you. You're literally going to have to at times. That is the game.
Corrupted players can be dealt with the same way.
It's an open world pvp MMORPG. No, not everyone will have my mindset and in fact there are guilds already forming with players who want to roam and kill everyone on sight. Expect that you will be killed on sight always.
Also, you said "I have really come to notice in many MMO's is that the PVP side can be a very niche group of players". ALL players in AoC will be pvpers. If not, you will be farmed for resources. If I find a PVE only guild, I will absolutely put them on kill on sight because you cannot come into AoC and not expect to pvp. That's silly and warrants your loss of goods. Killing low lvl players depends on what gathered goods they may have. Would I kill someone lower than me? Yes. Would I repeatedly kill them to be an asshole? Not at all. Once for sure then dip with the loot!
PvP only guilds will 100% know each other and they will work together unless something comes between them. It's a MASSIVE part of AoC and will truly define this game in the genre.
PvP only guilds will 100% know each other and they will work together unless something comes between them. It's a MASSIVE part of AoC and will truly define this game in the genre. "
PVP is not the only thing that will "truly" define this game. Don't forget that. There are sooo many people that dont want to do either PVE or PVP and just want to craft and do other things within the game.
I mean, sure, but this isn't Final Fantasy 14, you will need to participate in PvE and PvP sometime.
Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you lack the skill and doesn't mean you're insecure about.
When you put strong PvM content in a PvP zone, you just enrage the PvMers. Which, in turn, angers the PvPers.
"Why are you in a PvP zone if you don't want to PvP!!!???!!!"
On the EQNext forums, suggestions like this would get people temporary bans and the thread locked after a handful of pages.
Every zone in Ashes is a PvX Zone. And then some areas are more PvP-centric than others.
Castles are going to more PvP-centric than other areas, once players take over the castles. So, in the context of Ashes with regard to the OP, that is where I imagine the suggestion to put strong PVM content would fit.
That being said - initially the Castles will be owned by strong mobs, so it truly does fit.
Zones where Corruption is active are effectively, primarily PvM/PvE zones. They just aren't PvM/PvE-only zones.
Hardcore PvPers will still be a niche group of players in Ashes.
The foundational playstyle philosophies are not going to change.
Ashes won't be full of hardcore PvPers. There will likely be way more casual PvPers, PvMers/PvEers and hardcore Crafters than than there are hardcore PvPers.
Castle Sieges, Node Sieges and Caravans are objective based, so a lot of people participating in those will be doing so from a PvMer/ PvEer and Crafter perspective rather than from a PvP combat perspective.
It's all just going through your hardcore PvPer filter so you see more hardcore PvP combat than will truly be there.
And, I don't know how people would be recognizing those aspects of the guild while playing the game.
A guild could be very well known to have excellent Crafters. That would not mean that everyone in the guild only Crafts and that there are only a few highly skilled hardcore PvPer members.
This game isn’t going to be some kind of survival game, you are not going to get clapped by chinese players the moment you spawn. But if you are not willing to do PvP, you are most definitely going to be denied of doing lots of the “endgame” content that’s for sure.
My first MMO experiences were solo playing a themepark MMO on a PvP server, and even though that was less than a decade ago, my only real memory of a lot of the PvP was one genuinely frustrating ganking, a couple odd fights, and then the rest of the game no different to when I later moved to a PvE server.
The corruption mechanic as it stands may call to a few prideful jerks who get off on ganking players who clearly aren't fighting back. But other than the emotional gain is they take some of thier victims certs, and gain corruption. They then deal with being flagged as corrupt, death penalty 4 times normal & risk of dropping gear, attacked by town guards, and hunted by bounty hunters. It won't take long for people paying a sub fee to give up that sport for actively hunting caravans for greater material rewards, even greater victim frustration at losing large amounts of certs, and No penalties.
Parts of this game are a muggers paradise, but it ain't random ganking PvErs.
When I'm not in the mood for PvP combat, I don't want to be forced by some other player into PvP combat.
When I am in the mood, I will go to a battlegrounds and participate in PvP. When it's MY choice; not someone else's choice.
PvP players love PvP way more than PvE players do.
It's like if PvE players could run up to you while you're in the middle of a PvP battle and toggle your flags to PvE-only and then you have to harvest 50 flowers before you can get back to PvP. That's the issue.
The FIRST time you get PKed you immediately get into node chat and say "There's a red in the northwest part of the field of sorrows, near the demongoat spawns". I promise you there will immediately be 5+ people running straight there for the chance of getting free gear. People will want to protect their fellow citizens of the node. Other people are getting PKed by the same red and node chat starts exploding. People will petition the mayor to get the PKer on the "Enemy of the State" list and suddenly they are now Kill on Sight to every single citizen of the node free of consequences. Peoples reputation will follow them, their guilds reputation will reflect on them. They might have a difficult time getting PUGs for anything you can think of because their guild makes a lot of enemies.
My own guild for example used to PK everybody and anybody we wanted in Archeage, it was nothing like how guilds operated in L2. The consequences weren't very severe, we didn't need feel the need to work with all that many people except other very small PvP guilds we were friends with, it didn't matter how many people didn't like us. This game is the opposite, we want to work with people, groups, mayors, and guilds who are residing in/around the node(s) that the guild is dedicating it's efforts towards. There is a symbiotic relationship there. They can help us in various ways and we most likely can help them in various ways with everybody benefitting off the deal. We don't want our fellow citizens getting smoked while they are contributing progress/taxes/materials/whatever towards the node, which is in turn contributing towards my guild in one way or another.
You really shouldn't be getting PKed multiple times in a short time frame in this game. It shouldn't progress to the point where you are getting killed multiple times. It's gonna take extended lengths of time to even walk back to the area you were killed in. You will know that the particular area isn't safe and there's 4 other areas you could go to. If you are getting PKed multiple times chances are you have really angered somebody who is directly targeting and actively hunting you for a reason, or you are allowing yourself to be.
Just some thoughts reading the various threads about PvP vs PvE and corruption/PKers the last week or so.
Regarding prior posts, it may be a bit artificial to look at the player base as a dichotomy, that someone is either a PvP or a PvE player. I think that is more like a line with PVP on one end and PVE on the other and we each fall somewhere between the two extremes. Actually, we might move back and forth a bit depending on the day, our mood, what we need to get done in the game, which of our pals are logged in at the moment, and so forth.
I know in L2 sometimes after work I just felt like farming mobs solo. On siege days when we had a castle I was full of piss and vinegar. Other days I was up to whatever my guildmates felt like.
So....that means that Ashes will be great in having the full mix of different things to do to fit the player and the player's mood. Just like in the 'real world', the more diverse the population mix, the more fun it is for everyone!
Games like Lineage 2 and AoC are about communities. Just like in real life, you have a smoother time progressing if you go with the flow and help others out as they will help you when the time comes. Going against the grain will grant you some satisfaction and some rewards, but in the end your reputation and your past will come to haunt you in both PvE and PvP.
I would guess most PvP will take place in designated PvP events, no loss and all gain and you get to scratch that PvP itch at the same time. Well.. some loss if you are the one defending and lose... but you can get that back with some time and effort.
In table-top D&D, PvP is rare.
So, people who play MMORPGs because they want to play an online RPG set in a virtual world fantasy setting like they did in D&D but with a bunch other people ---where you can play anytime you want rather than having to wait sometimes several months before everyone's schedules free up to have a session (my last D&D session was over 2 months ago)---are likely not going to be interested much in PvP because PvP is like 0%-2% in D&D. I've been playing D&D for 40 years and never experienced PvP.
I am a carebear pacifist - actually, a non-competitive, co-operative player who is casual challenge; hardcore time.
My Bartle Score is: Explorer 87%; Socializer 73% ; Achiever 47%; Killer 0%
Now, my kill rating isn't 100% accurate, I kill stuff to complete quests - but killing stuff is the least of my interests and it is something I am often trying to avoid. I have a few characters that took the carebear challenge and only leveled via harvesting and mining and exploring - no kills allowed. (Obviously on a PvE server)
First thing I typically do with a brand new character is run it over to the startng area of another race. 1st thing I do when I level is run the character as far as I can to uncover as much of the map as possible before running into mobs that can one-shot kill me. I can spend hours swimming around continents to uncover the map.
I prefer games where I can aid other players in combat without joining a group because, while I love socializing and helping others with combat - when I want to go do something else, I don't want to feel like I'm obligated to stick around longer than I want to. I also love to participate in costume parties, and attend house decorating contests and participate in flash mobs with other players. While I don't really think of my self as being much interested in Achievements, I definitely would prefer to level via crafting and Achievements if they were just as easy to gain xp as killing stuff is. Killing stuff in MMORPGs generally isn't particularly entertaining It's OK. Sometimes it's kinda interesting. But, really, I only do it because kill quests are the fastest way to level. Actually, initial EQ was a tone for hunting mobs - just because being in a virtual world was so brand new.
In KOA: Reckoning and Valheim - I love, love, love to kill stuff (even though I also wish I could use diplomacy on some of the Humanoid mobs in Valheim). But, killing stuff in MMORPGS these days is *meh*.
On the PvP spectrum, I am PvP-sometimes. In an 8-hour session (which is typical), I never schedule in time for PvP combat. But, out of an 8-hour session, I could be interested in PvP combat for about an hour. So...when I was on PvP-Optional servers (which is where my characters would start), if I came across a town that was under attack by the enemy faction, I would flag for PvP and go defend the town for about an hour.
But... at the end of an hour. I'm over it. I am no longer in the mood for PvP. I am going to want to dip out and try to finish up the goals I planned to complete for my play session - uncovering the map, finishing a bunch of quests, gaining x amount of xp - whatever.
What pisses me off is when I've spent 6 hours doing whatever, then flag for PvP because I notice a rival faction has come over for PvP, PvP with them for an hour and then leave to go finish the tasks I had scheduled before I log out at the end of my game session. I find a secluded spot and harvest or kill some nearby mobs, minding my own business, only to get jumped by a rival faction player who followed me and wants to keep up the PvP. Even though, clearly, I'm not close enough to the PvP skirmish at the town to be interested in PvP.
"Why are you flagged for PvP if you're not interested in PvP?" Because I'm stuck waiting for the timer-cooldown.
Earlier today someone said, "Oh, PvErs should get out of their comfort zones sometimes." I do that.
I don't particularly enjoy killing mobs, but I do that. I really don't like PvP combat, but I like the RP of defend a town enough to flag for PvP for an hour. But, when I'm done, I want to be done, without some other player deciding that instead of switching back to doing the stuff I like doing, I have to continue doing the stuff I don't like doing...and, if I enter into combat, that just resets my PvP flag.
In Ashes... that's basically a lose/lose depending on how many times I'm attacked for PvP within a 30 minute period. If I let the person kill me, I gain all the normal death penalties (which could be fine if it only happens once, but becomes problematic if I'm accruing a bunch of xp debt in a sort span of time), if engage and win, that means I'm flagged for an activity that I probably am not in the mood for because if I was in the mood for PvP, I would be in a battlegrounds somewhere.
Although, I would start on PvP-Optional servers I would eventually always transfer to a PvE-Only server, because I eventually get sick of asshole PvPers who force me to continue to PvP when I'm no longer in the mood for that and want to finish up the tasks I had planned - after I gave up an hour of my session participating in an activity I don't like just so I could help them have fun in an activity they do like.
By 2013, I considered all PvPers to be assholes. PvPers get to like whatever they want to like, but I have no interest in playing on the same servers with them because they have no respect for other people's boundaries.
On the EQNext forums, the quickest way to get temp bans and to have a thread locked was to start a topic to discuss what kinds of mechanics we would need to have PvPers and PvErs on the same server.
PvPers would make what they felt was a reasonable suggestion and it would enrage the PvErs.
PvErs would make what they thought was a reasonable suggestion and it would enrage the PvPers.
Even for our Theoryforge podcast - Lock6time is a PvPer who loved the idea of everyone on the same server. He would make suggestions for how it could work which I found highly offensive. I would offer suggestions for what might work - even though I really think it's impossible - and he would flip the fuck out.
From my point of view, PvPers just want to get their jollies off fighting players who have no interest in fighting them.
But... then I realized...I really like Lock6time...except when he's talking about PvP. I think he's a great guy. I know that he cares about the entire EQNext community. If we were playing on a PvE server, I would love to hang out with him. While still-current co-host, Legendary Neurotoxin, didn't clash with me, he's also a PvPer who I would love to hang out with if we were on a PvE server. So, I reframed my thinking and became open to trying to see what we would need to do get the various PvP/PvE playstyles to play comfortably on the same servers - without assuming the PvPers just wanted a an easy gamkfest.
We never did find out what official EQNext vision of how that was intended to work.
PvPers will say that PvErs are just insecure, poor fighters who should just learn to fight better, don't die.
But, that's like saying, "Learn to like eating fish eyes. Go out of your comfort zone. Fish eyes are yummy. You will learn to like them if you just eat enough of them!"
I really am not interested in eating fish eyes - even if they are the yummiest.
Don't be segregationist is easy to say.
But, even here, one of the most contentious topics here has always been how can we get PvPers and PvErs comfortably playing on the same servers.
The fun thing is that it's typical for us to see - I bet every month since the launch of the forums - some PvPers complaining that Corruption is way to strict and needs to be heavily toned down. As well as, some PvErs complaining that Corruption is way to lenient and needs to have way more restrictions on PvP.
People who have played Lineage 2 tend to believe that Corruption will satisfy the vast majority of players along the PvP/PvE spectrum.
We will just have to wait to play so we can see if Corruption works as the devs hope it will.
PvPers see this as an excellent solution - but it tends to really not be helpful from the PvEr perspective.
What I want is to not be attacked by another player when I'm not in the mood for PvP combat.
I don't really care what happens to the player who attacked me after I've been forced into unwanted combat.
My anger is going to be at a 10 if I get killed. My anger is going to be at a 9.5 if I enter the battle and win - because now I'm flagged for PvP when I don't want to be. My anger is probably not going to be at the player - it's going to be at the game for allowing this to be possible.
3 times in a short time span would cause me to ragequit. I guess because Corruption would not be living up to the hype.
I am not at all interested in having other players "protect" me. Having other players in combat or supposedly "protecting me", knowing that I'm not going to do anything to help them in combat feels pretty shitty. That is not something I would ever do.
It's not really a viable solution, I think.
But, PvPers like that idea because it gives the PvPers more PvP stuff to do.
On the EQNext forums, this kind of suggestion would result in several PvErs getting temporary bans.
I haven't paid enough attention, here, in the past year to know - maybe a lot of PvErs on the Ashes forums will think it's a great solution.
The hope is that people won't be forced into unwanted PvP multiple times in a short time. That's the whole point of Corruption. We have to see how well it actually works once we get into Beta.
All I can say in summary is I genuinely don't believe this game will be a bloodbath in scenarios except dedicated PvP scenarios such as caravans and sieges. I truly believe PKs and reds will be much more rare than people believe them to be, and between the myriad of in game mechanics as well as the community driven aspect of things that I have outlined I don't think it will get to the point where somebody feels "griefed" except once in the extremely rare occasion if at all.
" The FIRST time you get PKed you immediately get into node chat and say "There's a red in the northwest part of the field of sorrows, near the demongoat spawns". I promise you there will immediately be 5+ people running straight there for the chance of getting free gear. People will want to protect their fellow citizens of the node. Other people are getting PKed by the same red and node chat starts exploding. People will petition the mayor to get the PKer on the "Enemy of the State" list and suddenly they are now Kill on Sight to every single citizen of the node free of consequences. Peoples reputation will follow them, their guilds reputation will reflect on them. They might have a difficult time getting PUGs for anything you can think of because their guild makes a lot of enemies. "
I guess also putting your name out there and having more and more notoriety makes you very targetable. So the more well known you become the more likely you will be on someone's hitlist. This idea is really cool to me honestly.
It also makes me thing about anti pk'ing. Let's say a pvp'er rolls up on the wrong person and attempts to kill them. I wonder what the turn around would be for someone who gets attacked and holds their ground and kills the pvp'er. Thoughts?
Can't really say until we have the fleshed out skill set. It is also dependent on what the two classes are. A rogue attacking a mage will go a little differently than if they attacked a tank. Usually, in these situations, the person being attacked wants to break a cc(because many people will open with one), apply their own if possibly, and start applying pressure.
It's not just anti-pvpers that will be out farming, the pvpers will also be farming too. All resources come from the environment so they are going to need to do pve to progress.
I would be really interested in how the anti pk'ing would work. We are still a long ways out but anti pk'ing has got to be the best feeling ever. You make a really good point about engaging with the cc and the priority for the person getting attacked is to clear the cc. It really feels like from what i've read from you guys is that any pvp encounters are going to be premeditated and not just random occurrences.
And you can certainly try to make your own city state in the game. The developers have specifically stated that nodes aren't meant for guilds to control, they are meant for players to control. That is why guilds can swear allegiance to a node. Who knows, if you obtain mayorship and do an excellent job governing the node you could build up your own little community and get your own page in the servers history books.
Keep in mind that they have stated that they want a 30-60 second time to kill in this game, which we can assume is for a 1v1. It will be extremely possible to turn the battle around after getting initially jumped. It will be in a player's best interest to try and defend themselves to lessen the penalties that come from dying. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Combat#Time_to_kill
Also I promise you there will be random PvP encounters just as much as structured ones like sieges and guild wars. The developers will introduce reasons to travel to and farm in the open world PvE hunting grounds/dungeons. Quest lines, tokens, item grinds, whatever. Groups who don't like each other will routinely run into each other and fight it out while they are doing these things. Groups that don't even know each other will challenge each other for the "good" grinding spots in the area. All the gear comes from the open world so they will need to be out there farming materials and moving caravans. You might be moving through a dungeon to get to the back rooms with your 15 man group and run into another 15-20 man group from an enemy guild who you hate who's farming spider goo, and now you got a random fight on your hands. This is going to be your day to day.
This is a thought that popped in my mind forsure - there's almost no way for people to interact within a world with this many entities and not have random encounters like this. Do you think there is going to be a system to help prevent people who are just finished with a dungeon not get jumped by people waiting to attack when they are low on resources and full of loot etc? @Bricktop
@Jiraiya I believe the corruption system alone is enough to make people think twice and really question "Is this worth it" before attempting to jump you. Let alone the myriad of other systems and the entire community driven aspect of the game we have been chatting about. People will certainly be able to attack you in these scenarios and that is working as intended. Open world PvX games thrive through rare and finite resources such as world bosses and groups of players trying to fight for control of them. Player driven conflict will help drive the story on your server. Barely anybody is going to be talking about that time you killed a dragon for the 10th time and crafted a bow, but everybody will remember the time that 10 guilds merged into a giant alliance to fight the already established mega alliance on the server and 4 months of all out war ensued until drama broke them apart into 3 more smaller alliances that started all fighting each other.
You will know when things feel off and a group enters your room and stops moving and starts side eyeing you. You know immediately they are talking about what they want to do in comms about your group, and you will start talking in comms what you want to do with your groups. "Alright if they start flagging on us we are going to immediately focus fire xXDrMedsXx, he is their healer, follow it up with XYZ". It only takes one time for a guild to try and jump your guild before you forever mistrust them. From that point onwards you will take every encounter with this guild differently, maybe you will be the ones attacking first now in every encounter because you don't want to risk anything or play games with them.
Your best bet is to plan ahead. Plan routes to get back from the dungeon out of view, plan a strategy within your guild of what to do when an engagement starts, don't get greedy and go after even MORE materials or whatever when you already have a good haul, plan off the beaten path caravan routes. There's a lot of things people can do to mitigate risks, or they could sit around and talk about how hard the game is and how unfair it is.
This actually works though.
Last night playing classic wow on a pvp server. Some high level Alliance players came to Tarren Mill and started ganking lowbies. Chat lit up and a few minutes later some high level Horde players showed up and fixed it.
The community should look out for each other in this way.