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Mage Class Design

GroaningPhoenixGroaningPhoenix Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
in General Discussion
I have been browsing the wiki for as much information I can find on the Mage, as my goal is to try and be the best Archmage in the world. I have noticed something. At this time, it seems as if there isn't going to be much separating the different types of mages. You get all of the same abilites, but when you become an archmage, you change the damage of some of those abilities to a different element. This feels as though my choice of going Mage Mage isn't that important. While the choice may change how they play, frost being more controlling, fire being more damaging, if the spells are all the same with the same animations just different particle effects and different subeffects (Freezing, Burning), then I feel the Archmage might feel a bit lacking in design.

I really like using the idea of magic using a system much like DnD 5e, where there are levels of spells, and maybe to make the Archmage feel like the pinnacle of magic, allow them to gain a level above everyone else. Also with the DnD 5e system, you get to choose what your mage learns, instead of getting told what abilities your mage will have. This will also make almost every mage different, so when you add a mage to your squad, you could ask what they specialize in.

I am just concerned that the class feels kinda lame and every mage feels "samey" to play. If you want to make a pyromancer, they should feel and play differently than a frost mage. If you want to make a Spacial Wizard, they should feel different than a chronomancer.

I just hope the dev team reads this and takes this into account. They don't have to use the suggestion of a role player, but when I roleplay, I want to feel unique, not like every other mage in the world...

This obviously is using very very limited information, and might just be completely off point as to how the class is currently being designed, but I want to make sure I am speaking out in case it is being designed this way.
Future Tulnar Archwizard

For me, the only good day is one filled with study and explosions.

-Archwizard Slizard

Comments

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    There isn't enough info out for you to learn how to be an Archmage period, let alone the best Archmage.
    All depends on what augments you choose. And then you have to figure the gear you need to support your abilities and augments.
    You might also want to study at a Scholar's Academy.
    You'll have to play to know.

    All Mage's will feel like a Mage.
    But a Shadowmancer will play significantly differently than an Archmage.
    Augments create significant changes to the abilities they're attached to.
  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2021
    "If you are a mage primary with an summoner secondary class you're really going to be able to pull from the identity of that summoner: Being able to temporarily put a servant on the battlefield that might be this fire elemental... Instead of firing off a fireball you summon this fire elemental that surrounds your target and deals this damage over time and perhaps even slows them or decreases their attack speed by entangling or encumbering them with their attacks from the summons momentarily. It's the idea behind the secondary classes really being able to to skirt the line with your traditional role as your primary archetype with the roles that identify your other archetypes.[2] – Steven Sharif"
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Warlock

    OP,
    While I agree with what you are saying, I hoping that the visual and effect differences will generally be different enough to feel like a different class. In the example above, the standard mage fireball becomes a summoned fire elemental that temporarily surrounds and attacks the target and changes the damage from generally instant damage to damage over time while possibly causing a slow or attack speed decrease.

    If we take this a bit farther and apply the third fireball augment (which turns fireball into an AOE), then perhaps there will be be multiple summons attacking all over the area instead of an instant blast of fire. Unfortunately, we just don't have any way to know for sure yet.
  • GroaningPhoenixGroaningPhoenix Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    There isn't enough info out for you to learn how to be an Archmage period, let alone the best Archmage.
    All depends on what augments you choose. And then you have to figure the gear you need to support your abilities and augments.
    You might also want to study at a Scholar's Academy.
    You'll have to play to know.

    All Mage's will feel like a Mage.
    But a Shadowmancer will play significantly differently than an Archmage.
    Augments create significant changes to the abilities they're attached to.

    I understand the different augments will play differently, but I don't want the Archmage, which is Mage Primary, Mage Secondary, to all fell the same with reskinned abilities to match the augment from the secondary mage choice. I want to be able to make many archmages and have them feel and play differently.

    Archmage Gorosh, Fist of Flame, Archmage Celine, Winter's Bite, Archmage Zerath, Harbinger of Time. These names invoke different thoughts and feelings about what their abilities are. I don't expect a Fist of Flame to do the same motions as a Harbinger of Time, and when they do, it just lets me down when I think about it... :(
    Future Tulnar Archwizard

    For me, the only good day is one filled with study and explosions.

    -Archwizard Slizard
  • GroaningPhoenixGroaningPhoenix Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    FuryBladeborne wrote: »
    "If you are a mage primary with an summoner secondary class you're really going to be able to pull from the identity of that summoner: Being able to temporarily put a servant on the battlefield that might be this fire elemental... Instead of firing off a fireball you summon this fire elemental that surrounds your target and deals this damage over time and perhaps even slows them or decreases their attack speed by entangling or encumbering them with their attacks from the summons momentarily. It's the idea behind the secondary classes really being able to to skirt the line with your traditional role as your primary archetype with the roles that identify your other archetypes.[2] – Steven Sharif"
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Warlock

    OP,
    While I agree with what you are saying, I hoping that the visual and effect differences will generally be different enough to feel like a different class. In the example above, the standard mage fireball becomes a summoned fire elemental that temporarily surrounds and attacks the target and changes the damage from generally instant damage to damage over time while possibly causing a slow or attack speed decrease.

    If we take this a bit farther and apply the third fireball augment (which turns fireball into an AOE), then perhaps there will be be multiple summons attacking all over the area instead of an instant blast of fire. We don't have any way to know for sure yet.

    Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough, but I do understand that adding in a different class to augment the spells will change them, but when I look at the augment of Mage for the Mage class, it says That there are 4 different schools that you can augment with.

    So using your fireball example, If I choose to augment my fireball with teleportation, in theory that would mean an instant fire explosion on the target. This still feels the same as casting the fireball and watching it travel to the target before exploding. Just visually a little different.

    I want to cast different spells of my choosing so I can specialize in a school of magic, instead of being told I have these spells, with these augments on them. I also understand this would make alot more work as far as coming up with alot of spells, but all other mmo's I have seen/played, all mages felt samey, except for the secondary effects of say freezing or burning.

    Like i said in the original post, this is more just me voicing my concerns before it is waaaay too late and everything is completely set in stone. If the current system brings different feels and different ways to play specifically, the Archmage, then I will be happy.
    Future Tulnar Archwizard

    For me, the only good day is one filled with study and explosions.

    -Archwizard Slizard
  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2021
    You have a point, they haven't said anything about casting animation changes for abilities. Its probably safest to assume that they will be the same between different classes.

    I seems that your concern is specifically related to the differences between Archwizards, Mages, and the elemental augments. Looking at it this way, we haven't been told that there will be different ability effects between Mages and Archwizards. However, elemental effects may be quite different. If a fireball becomes a frost attack, the damage and effects all change, and the different versions are effected differently by different weather, then the 2 versions of the ability may only look similar in that they are both ranged and different in all other ways.

    BTW, if a fireball becomes a teleporting fireball rather than a flying fireball that is a significant difference. Particularly in PVP. A teleporting fireball if far more likely to hit and the target has fewer (if any) options to defend. Also, it seems like such a change may move the spell between being action combat or tab target as well.

    Changing a spell from high DPS to lower DPS + an effect such as freezing while while also changing the image of the spell not only looks like a new spell, it also changes the way the character is played. The character goes from presumably high DPS burst damage into more of a control and kiting character. Provided the numbers change enough, the characters must be played in very different ways.

    We can only hope. :)
  • GroaningPhoenixGroaningPhoenix Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    FuryBladeborne wrote: »
    You have a point, they haven't said anything about casting animation changes for abilities. Its probably safest to assume that they will be the same between different classes.

    I seems that your concern is specifically related to the differences between Archwizards, Mages, and the elemental augments. Looking at it this way, we haven't been told that there will be different ability effects between Mages and Archwizards. However, elemental effects may be quite different. If a fireball becomes a frost attack, the damage and effects all change, and the different versions are effected differently by different weather, then the 2 versions of the ability may only look similar in that they are both ranged and different in all other ways.

    BTW, if a fireball becomes a teleporting fireball rather than a flying fireball that is a significant difference. Particularly in PVP. A teleporting fireball if far more likely to hit and the target has fewer (if any) options to defend. Also, it seems like such a change may move the spell between being action combat or tab target as well.

    Changing a spell from high DPS to lower DPS + an effect such as freezing while while also changing the image of the spell not only looks like a new spell, it also changes the way the character is played. The character goes from presumably high DPS burst damage into more of a control and kiting character. Provided the numbers change enough, the characters must be played in very different ways.

    We can only hope. :)

    I do hope it turns out that way as well.

    Future Tulnar Archwizard

    For me, the only good day is one filled with study and explosions.

    -Archwizard Slizard
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2021
    GroaningPhoenix wrote: »
    I understand the different augments will play differently, but I don't want the Archmage, which is Mage Primary, Mage Secondary, to all fell the same with reskinned abilities to match the augment from the secondary mage choice. I want to be able to make many archmages and have them feel and play differently.

    Archmage Gorosh, Fist of Flame, Archmage Celine, Winter's Bite, Archmage Zerath, Harbinger of Time. These names invoke different thoughts and feelings about what their abilities are. I don't expect a Fist of Flame to do the same motions as a Harbinger of Time, and when they do, it just lets me down when I think about it... :(
    I'm not sure what that means, but...
    There will be 4 schools of augments for Archmages.
    In addition to that, there will be racial, social, religious and naval augments.

    Casting animations are likely to look the same because the casting motions are probably going to be based on the abilities rather than on the augments. But, the visual effects are likely to look quite different.
    You can be disappointed, I suppose... but expecting the devs to create different casting animations for every single augment that can be applied to one ability is unrealistic.
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Don't forget that the season of the year, magical events and perhaps location will impact your magic.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2021
    tautau wrote: »
    Don't forget that the season of the year, magical events and perhaps location will impact your magic.

    I've been here for ages and I totally forgot that :D
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Also the cleric/cleric path will allow clerics to control necro players and basically use them as summons, take them over at will and empty their warehouses. Did you forget that, too?

    Or maybe I just made it up.....
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    tautau wrote: »
    Also the cleric/cleric path will allow clerics to control necro players and basically use them as summons, take them over at will and empty their warehouses. Did you forget that, too?

    Or maybe I just made it up.....

    That you made up (thankful)
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    ...you hope.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    tautau wrote: »
    ...you hope.

    I think clerics do more damage to undead if I remember
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I thought Clerics do more damage to Corrupted? Makes sense that it would be to undead, too, I just don't recall that being stated specifically.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    I thought Clerics do more damage to Corrupted? Makes sense that it would be to undead, too, I just don't recall that being stated specifically.

    Undead, Corrupted its all the same.

    Fun times ^^
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    In the second class choice, I think that the clerics can choose a light or dark path, perhaps choosing between powers against the Holy or the Undead somehow, IIRC.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2021
    tautau wrote: »
    In the second class choice, I think that the clerics can choose a light or dark path, perhaps choosing between powers against the Holy or the Undead somehow, IIRC.
    Yeah, I'm a bit concerned that the lore has taken a Christian view of zombies and undead being a "dark", "evil" and "Corrupted" path, rather than honoring other, non-Christian views of ancestral worship/prayer/summoning that have a more benign view.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    tautau wrote: »
    In the second class choice, I think that the clerics can choose a light or dark path, perhaps choosing between powers against the Holy or the Undead somehow, IIRC.
    Yeah, I'm a bit concerned that the lore has taken a Christian view of zombies and undead being a "dark", "evil" and "Corrupted" path, rather than honoring other, non-Christian views of ancestral worship/prayer/summoning that have a more benign view.

    I could go into a whole diatribe about the undead in games and fiction but if ashes wants them evil then that's that.
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • GroaningPhoenixGroaningPhoenix Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    tautau wrote: »
    Don't forget that the season of the year, magical events and perhaps location will impact your magic.

    I was unaware that this was a thing, but I do like that these occur.
    Future Tulnar Archwizard

    For me, the only good day is one filled with study and explosions.

    -Archwizard Slizard
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