Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
However, be aware that it's not much better. Quickly targeting teammates by clicking on the left HUD positions is fiddly at the moment, and the muscle memory for it doesn't work well in conjunction with healing anyone not in party or properly retargeting for attacks after.
That first test on Norlan, the ability to target allied forces and enemies the same way was a bug, I think. It just treated everyone outside your own party as targetable. I could tab target through both enemy and allied units outside my party, but not tab target my own party. After a fix, I lost the ability to target allied in the same way, I think. I'll test it next time. If one of my group sees you, we'll invite you if you want and you can test it too (will be Norlan Defence again, by default)
@maouw - I am going so far as to assume that all abilities will have different viable angles/arcs when Tab Targeted, and that they will be smaller than the current 90 degrees, to allow for mobility to matter. This is also why I expect that there will have to be a full discussion about stat effects on the Sticky Reticle, but as you have seen from the other thread, that's going about as well as it usually does.
I'll hope that the next Development Update shows us some more Combat Revamp, not sure what else they have to show, still, since almost all their current work (edit: That we know about) has been bugfixing and server side. If it does, we can really double down or change the direction of this discussion according to what they did.
Stephen assured us that the Devs constantly monitor all our feedback, so I have no reason to assume it won't help. That's like, the core principle of Ashes development, and breaking that promise would be a far bigger indicator than any specific thing right or wrong with the combat.
I totally understand, as a developer, not trying to throw the Combat Revamp in on top of everything else while testing Siege and bugfixing. If it were my team, I doubt you'd be playing it until July, but if it was far enough along, I'd definitely show it off for this month's stream, so, fingers crossed.
Attack Damage | Mana Regeneration
Critical Hit Damage | Health Regeneration | Critical Hit Rate
Maximum Health | Defense Mitigation
Disable Chance | Cooldown Reduction | Movement Speed
TANK PASSIVE SKILLS:
Block Chance | Mana Regeneration
Healing Received | Health Regeneration | Critical Hit Rate
Maximum Health | Defense Mitigation
Physical Evasion Bonus | Cooldown Reduction | Movement Speed
CLERIC PASSIVE SKILLS:
Increased Healing | Mana Regeneration
Maximum Mana | Health Regeneration | Critical Hit Rate
Maximum Health | Defense Mitigation
Disable Defense | Cooldown Reduction | Movement Speed
These look more like stat assignments than passive abilities
We're adding "skill points" to what are basically stats.
Works for me because it still helps us to build characters the way we want - and doesn't rely solely on gear to do so.
I would love to be able to put points directly into Crit Damage and Crit rate rather than only being able to do that with gear.
But...I also wouldn't mind some "creative abilities".
And I wish they were partially based on race; not just Primary Archetype.
It can be very important to have things that are simple enough. While it can be very interesting for theorycrafters to have difficult choices, it can be off-putting to new players to have to rely on technical players and guides just to know how to make certain choices.
So in this case, there's some benefit for people being able to easily identify the 'standard' or 'cookie cutter' build.
Most other possible passives would be much more work to design, and balance, but above all else, to understand for the average player.
So I expect it will just be moreso the equivalent of a game where you always get things like 'Mages have a Magic Attack Bonus', except that it's optional for the few players who somehow come up with some other build, or have something that works better in their guild or group.
Overall, don't expect much from Passives, I feel. 'Interesting' ones wouldn't pass the last 'relatability test'.
I wasn't giving feedback on these for a while since I assumed the Devs didn't need any, as they were already doing revamps. This time there was a specific request in server chat so I assume that's changed.
I like it less now that the 'novelty' has worn off.
My group (1 other cleric, 2 tanks, 1 mage, yesterday - the other tank and mages couldn't play) likes it less.
To preface this, performance isn't an issue. It's smooth, it's mostly responsive, and for the most part, we were more effective than ever, to the point of it being possibly unfair. But that's part of why we don't like it.
This isn't about the backend changes from yesterday and I hope that's what they were asking about, in which case, the above is the answer. Smooth, performant.
The actual feel of combat itself is 'unpleasant' in specific ways that are design related overall though, and I just didn't want to say anything before. Players with even slightly less skill or awareness get completely dominated (my tanks K/D was like 24-3 at one point and she just started charging into literal groups of enemies and cutting them down). It takes 3 people to kill me if I'm trying to stay out of their melee range and that's just basic healing and outmaneuver since my opponents have so few options once I read their play. Note what I said. It isn't that I should be benefitting because of my tactics. It's that I know that my opponents have no options so I can employ 'cheaper' tactics.
Some of this is secondhand from my group because I don't even bother to use autoattack in sieges, it's not beneficial to me, I'd need a wand for it to matter, and I probably wouldn't do it then either. I thought for a bit that it was a matter of healing being too strong so I did a 1v1 against someone who didn't take me by surprise. Went as expected. They won out, because I didn't run away and tried to actually fight, but it still ended up being about the same feeling.
This isn't actually meant as criticism, this is a report so that people know that based on what most people in this specific thread have been requesting, it isn't there yet, and we probably shouldn't pile on what is there, and should just wait instead.
@Karatos - I've played TERA and am familiar with Darkfall now through posters in the thread. I'll look into Conquerors Blade. If you have time, please give some feedback on the Compilation somewhere in the last few pages of this thread. If you don't see it, I'll probably need to make a new post for this page containing it, for simplicity.
2. A Brace option that reduces damage and blocks CC unless the enemy has 'Overwhelm' on their ability. Some stamina cost here.
3. Possibly a small stamina cost for some versions of those directional Q abilities so we can have movement but not eternally.
4. Gated strings with different attack animations (we already have a combo attack like this, but some posters have asked for more variety)
5. Limitations on the usability of certain skills when the enemy is out of its attack cone, regardless of your Tab Target.
6. 'Sticky reticle' behaviour to enhance targeting, possibly assisting with the Tab Targeting itself, but not requiring it, to make the transitions between Tab and Action easier
7. Ability to dodge twice before Dodge Cooldown fully triggers (Dodge retains a stamina cost). E.g. Dodge once and it 'recharges your first dodge' but you have another you can always use. Dodge twice and now you can't dodge again until recharged.
8. Some telegraphs of the attack vector or cone of abilities (especially those that can be varied through augments)
9. A stamina cost tied to jumping (perhaps only when weapons drawn). Note, not universal, this has a dissenter in this thread, and others that don't want it without some equivalent of #1.
Unrelatedly, is it just me or does Q seem like an odd Keybind for this? Why is Interact, a thing one hits in non dangerous situations, on E, but attack on Q? I know other games do this and I've never understood it.
It's pretty irrelevant if they open up keybind edits soon, but it may be hard to get unbiased data this way...
Anyways, let me know how this one is. Reasonings aren't included today."
I'm going to be honest, tracking what's in your head is a bit difficult because how indepth you're thinking so I'll try my best.
1) The best form of evade is that dodge roll is an iFrame, however it needs to be drawn from resource pool imo. I think that if they tie that resource pool to active block and parry it'll be fine. Directionals are always a plus.
2) This ties into the first one, I think active block should eat away the resource and every blow an extra bit of resource. Tied into dodge roll and or parry. Block for sword and board, parry for other weapons.
3) Eh, maybe on the sprint feature, put the sprint on a separate resource pool.
4) I'm not sure what gated strings mean, I see a gate with a bunch of yarn behind it.
5) I'll touch back on this at the bottom of my post.
6) " "
7) Make dodging expensive.
8) Visceral effects, is what we call this in psychology as it related to your eyeballs being able to track movement.
9) Yes.
When I relate Conqueror's Blade, Darkfall, and TERA being the best three to pull from, it's' important to understand that using a reticle to lock on targets is still tab target, it's simply just mouse-over.
I do not think Ashes of Creation will stand to benefit from traditional tab target, however I think it'll stand to benefit from "Tab Tracking" by being able to highlight the object of a players attacks. Whether it be another player, a boss, etc. This would make the action combat and mouse-over tabbing a lot easier to do.
Conqueror's Blade has really good combo systems if pulled off right, which can be used as an influence for keeping weapons separate from classes. It also has some skills that breaks things like block, for instance a spear user can kick their spear into a blocking player and it'll disable block for some short amount of time.
Darkfall also has an ability like this where block is disabled and put on a timer. Though more so tied into class skills rather than weapon ability.
As far as cost goes, there is a limit to how much a player can dodge and block in Conq Blade, Darkfall, and TERA. It's not infinite as it should be here, but I much prefer seeing an active parry on non sword and board users rather than a block to make it more skill based.
There would be retaliatory effects after a successful parry or dodge roll depending on the weapon. Just a thought.
TERA used the Unreal engine, so I know for a fact that mouse-over tab mechanics work extremely well, this would be more beneficial to Ashes of Creation rather than traditional tab and it would force players to use more intelligent movement.
Darkfall uses line, cone, and AoE heals there are no mouse-over lock ons, which I do not think Ashes would benefit from, I do think that tab heals so as much as they are mouse over are going to be a requirement for certain abilities.
Conq Blade players get their own form of heal via a bandage mechanic, which Ashes would stand to benefit from bandages being in the game. Simply make the action of using a bandage take away from the same resource pool that other defensive reactive abilities would use.
That being said, I do not feel weapon abilities should get their own button, I do agree that weapons need to be movement + action, rather than just a one button press ability.
To give examples, using a shield after blocking could be a step forward followed by a button press for a shield bash, concussing the target.
A spear could parry followed by a lunge to hit the target and cause a bleed effect or a gore effect which makes bleeds hit harder.
ESO and GW2 did a bunch right and a bunch wrong, but I want to highlight something ESO did that I absolutely despise.
Snipe, as soon as you hit snipe the skill would follow people like a homing missile; I do not feel like that should be the case here. I think the gameplay should feel more rewarding for landing an actual snipe.
Anyway, I hope they lean heavy on the action combat side and free aiming abilities and mouse over for tab with tab tracking.
This game will benefit more from not being a generic tab target.
I think that we could benefit from some sort of 'highlight' on the enemy that is currently targeted with the Sticky Reticle, and this function could remove the need for 'standard tab target' somewhat. Last considerations were related to the complexity of doing this in really large combat situations like Sieges.
Otherwise it doesn't sound like you would have any serious complaints about the Compilation, and the latest updates to the Combat system in the Alpha-1 Preview are starting to implement certain mechanics for mouse-over and reticle stuff which will be close to what you're saying.
Intrepid really can't go the non action combat route, but it needs mouse over healing and it needs tab tracking/highlight for people.
The most important function of tabbing is tracking, not the spells automatically going to the selected target.
We went to check out the boss shown on the June Development Update footage in action, and see how combat would feel against something of that precise size. Think of the enemy as a sort of Cleric with moves that you could call "Dark Judgement" and "Unholy Ground" and so on.
The enemy can be done with the current combat system, but subjectively speaking it is not 'fun' because the player's mobility is still too low at current. Nothing surprising there. Getting out of its AoE is rough. Healing others right after is okay, but efficiently healing multiple in quick succession, also rough. Basically, the various mechanics mean that with the movement as it is now, it can become too hard to maintain focus on what the enemy is doing and on the enemy/adds/allies.
In Action Mode, the complexity... I want to say 'rises'? Because of how one targets allies. The Allies in question must move and react to the enemy's attacks, but you must also manage to heal or buff them while they are moving, while also moving.
None of this is directly too bad, the main issue is the 'lack of a way to put distance between you and the situation in order to get a proper perspective quickly enough to do it'. Right now, Tab Target is a good 'compromise'/'cover up' for this 'issue'.
Others who want to replicate this test for feedback purposes can find 'Jermaine, Torment of Illwind' up in that Node, past the Alchemist's house, to the east. Might need to do it after a Siege attempt so that you're leveled enough. Should be doable with four people fairly easily, but I'm judging this from the perspective of a group with 2 Clerics.
Note that the latest build seems to have a proper cap on total Skill Points available, which will make it harder since the Cleric must pick and choose, but overall healing options are strong enough.
I'm particularly interested in any feedback from Mages on 'targeting' vs 'making sure the Clerics have enough mana', especially with Action Mode active.
Got a lot more 1v1s, since I'm the only one of my group around for this test. Balance seems ok (except Weapon Throw maybe but I'm not sure), but movement is still painful, partially because autoattacks aren't worth the damage, and can pull you so close to targets that your abilities give the 'Outside Ability Arc' message. Mages can backpedal while attacking and this causes them to be able to 'slide to the side' which causes issues on the current advancing Basic attack.
As usual, 'wasted' way too many dodge rolls on just sideways movement, and 'lost track of opponents' that managed to move slightly to the side during Basic Attack and not trigger the collision (using Sword). This also causes a loss of ability to land things on the Ability Arc if trying to do them right after, but if you spin the Camera, even if you spin it fast enough, the opponent might be slightly to the side on the next Basic Attack and cause the whole thing again.
Siege Healing was same as always. Action Mode prioritizes enemies, loses track of allies if they are slightly out of your path, and the change I think they made or planned to make might not be working yet (pressing a key to focus on someone you happened to sweep your camera over). I need more data on this because it could easily have been me, but in a big battle, even 'reacting to seeing the right name and pressing either that or the heal' is a little hard.
As usual, just an update, moreso than a complaint set, for those who track what's changing, through this thread.
I thought they had changed it so we could only put a point into each ability.
Based on your previous post about allocating skill points and how I typically focus on healing in Sieges, this time I maxed out healing/Health abilities and, I think, maxed Mana.
Only to find myself with no direct attack abilities for the Dragons marching to the Castle - didn't even know that was a thing!!
Having maxed heals and maxed health did help keep myself alive when attacked by Tanks, but, didn't really help me heal others - except for Hallowed Ground. Target healing was nigh-impossible.
Combat strategies still seem a bit wonky, but it's cool to work through rotations with other Clerics on the battlefield with what we currently have.
Definitely Alpha gameplay, but Sieges are already fun.
As it is right now it's not even the combat that concerns me the most, but how certain mobs behave and move (looking at you Mushroom bois).
It certainly needs to (and, hopefully, will) be more natural and smooth - so it doesn't seem like they glitch/fidget-step towards you.
For sure, that's good feedback. People tend to forget that combat is two sided. The enemies (mobs) in this case should move smoothly and have decent AI to give you a challenge. It is only alpha so what we have now is somewhat acceptable. Looking forward to how they'll improve on those bits.
That tends to come second in sequence, because they have to decide how fast and how far players are allowed to move, before they can decide it for enemies. If Raptors in this game tried to sidestep or circle you right now (Monster Hunter players can imagine just Jagras or similar small enemies), the forward moving attack problems would cause you to get hurt more. In fact, this even happens a little bit with some of the enemies now, depending on their pathing.
They would definitely be more challenging if they didn't run straight at you, but then player characters other than Mages would have to use more focus and skills to do anything to them.
I'm not saying that's bad, at all, just that generally, you would have to pin down the player's movement first.
With the current Compilation, Raptors circling would be fine, Spiders leaping over your head would be fine, and Griffons might start to get more potential since you could let them use swooping attacks, but with the Combat build that the Alpha Preview is testing, these might be more frustrating.
yes step by step they'll get there
The last topic in general discussion was the abilities of enemies, and with the new Free Motion combat, we come to a point of discussion that isn't directly covered in other threads, so...
What exactly do players expect to happen when they circle an enemy using Free Motion?
I expect that the enemy ignores my position almost entirely. I don't expect to dodge their melee attacks. I don't expect to dodge their non-telegraphed conal attacks. I don't even expect to dodge the telegraphed conal attacks if the cone is wide and ping to the server is not so great.
My assumption for Free Motion is that it won't result in dodging anything of importance in PvE and I'm used to this, games generally either 'make it so the enemy hits regardless', 'rapidly changes their turning and facing direction', or 'makes their attack cone hitbox so stupidly large that if you're not effectively behind them, you're out of luck'.
Balancing an Open World MMO game where you can 'free motion strafe out of your opponent's attack cone in PvE while attacking' with any consistency is borderline ridiculous with older technology. Note the specifics of that claim. You can strafe, you can attack, but making players able to do both goes down a whole rabbit-hole of other problems and requirements.
I've already seen people complain that in Action Combat mode, moving to the side of the enemy's attack doesn't prevent them from taking damage, so we know that someone out there expects to be able to do this. What's your expectation?
(Edit: forgot to note, for my group's members on the forums, for 'legacy reasons', our group lock is still in effect for this thread)
You confuse me a little with your statement as your assumptions on how the game works are how the game works and why i prefer free motion. Mobs also worked that way when we had root motion. With the exception of telegraph abilities, mob attacks function like tab abilities, to my knowledge, so you can't dodge them, only move out range.
if mobs were changed so we could dodge their abilities then yes, root motion might be the way to go but that's not how it is atm.
So there may be people out there who assume or hope that once Free Motion is available, they will become able to strafe to the side of a Spider or Crab and therefore evade damage. It doesn't sound like this ability is important to you?
That is a different conversation as being able to strafe or not doesn't change how the crabs attacks work. Yes, I would prefer to be able to dodge the crab's attacks but that isn't being asked. In the current game, since dodging isn't part of the combat, i'd prefer to be able to move freely with my auto attacks.
I actually find this really interesting. Would you have mostly the same perspective for PvP? I mean, that the player will probably be hit if they are within, let's say, the entire 180 degrees semicircle in front of their opponent, and movement is just a general feeling of freedom and ability-counter, moreso than a 'close range combat thing'.
I was under the impression (probably wrongly) that PvP players specifically wanted to be able to move around and it make a meaningful difference in PvP, even for basic weapon usage, but if that's not a concern for you either, than I can easily see why it doesn't matter to you.
Are you intentionally ignoring what i'm saying as you haven't addressed my comments about the game's current state. Yes, they are my thoughts that could be wrong but you seem to completely ignore the parts of my comments where i say i'd prefer to be able to dodge but you can't.
Players having root motion doesn't mean i can dodge the crab as the crabs attacks don't work the same as the players. If you want to change the crab then cool but i haven't seen you argue that.
pvp had a different situation and there are other reasons that dodging wasn't a big part of fighting. Yes, I would prefer it but the same situation where root motion isn't the only thing that effects this.
I love how mobile the New World mobs are. And I especially loved seeing an undead pirate execute backflips to put some range between us.
If we can get AI like that, circle strafing may not be super effective because the mobs won't be stationary.
They might maneuver into our strafe.
I haven't tested that in New World though. That area with the undead pirates had boxes in the way that would not have allowed a circle strafe.
Curious to see what the Ashes devs can do with mob AI in the next couple of years.
I'm genuinely sorry that it's coming off that way. Assume for the moment that I don't care at all about root motion. All I want to know right now is 'if people expect Free Motion to allow them to dodge mob attacks by strafing around them'.
Not 'want', which you clarified. "Expect". I believe I understand that you would 'want' to, but don't 'expect' to, in PvE. Similarly, my PvP question can be boiled down to the same thing.
"Do you expect that strafing will get you out of an melee attack cone in PvP?"
Edit: Clarified that I meant a melee attack cone.
I'd assume (or expect) if it gave some kind of advantage, the devs would compensate in some way.
EDIT: i don't think i answered that correctly, I don't expect free motion to allow you to dodge npc basic attacks as they seem to be using tab. It would make it easier for melee users to move out of telegraphed attacks.
Pvp is trickier as both sides have the same advantage. Compared to root motion, i'd expect that it to be a little easier to get out of aoes if they caught you while attacking and would change melee combat so there is less people spamming one button into each other.
As already noted, if the action combat is to properly give of a sense of engaging combat perhaps you should look towards games like dark souls, monster hunter world or even new world. The enemies actually react accordingly with what has hit them, a hammer should be capable of pushing small enemies around and make larger enemies like trolls brace for the impact, a sword cut would result in the enemy flinching at its sting, an arrow could have an enemy stumble backwards, whereas bosses woulden't actually need to have these more complex reactions since they are tough enough to shrug of any attack.
What I am trying to get at is that, for the action combat to feel more alive and enaging it has to BE IMPACTFUL, depending on what hits the enemy and what size it is and its usual behaviour it should have reactions to different attacks.
That's partly why the action combat feels dull, it lacks realistic reactions from the mobs.
Short summary: Make action combat more impactful by giving mobs live and realistic reactions to what kind of attacks hits them.
In your model, does your character also have this sort of reaction when the mobs hit you?