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If there were a training room to measure DPS/HPS would you use it?

PotatoMasherAnniePotatoMasherAnnie Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
There will be no meters or meter addons obviously, but if there were a place you could measure and practice the numbers you could pull (like a training room) would you use it?
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Comments

  • ViBunjaViBunja Member, Alpha Two
    I have to say you have to take a look at Warframe's community. They have DPS studies in the matter without any DPS meters. It's pretty simple, you record yourself fighting something, including different levels and do the math yourself, and there you have it, DPS. It's just basically doing it old school.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Nope.
  • SathragoSathrago Member, Alpha Two
    Nope, but you bet your ass competitive min-maxer guilds will require their members to use them. There's also the potential for players trying to create a system where you can quickly share the details of such a testing room, allowing people to start discriminating on that information.
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  • TacualeonTacualeon Member
    edited May 2021
    Yes, if I like the combat.
    I wished all games had practice rooms.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I have a training dummy on my lawn in FFXIV. I spend an amount of time at that dummy that some people would find staggering. I have waited in ques for up to 30mins at a time maintaining full DPS on the dummy.

    The first thing I do when I log on to FFXIV is spend like 5 mins at the dummy to warm up.

    So yes, I would use the hell out of it.
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  • Not really, I like the purity of knowing the game and the players through having experiences and not just looking at a table of numbers.

    And everything I have seen from the game looks like it will focus more on these social aspects than on numbers anyway.
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  • InixiaInixia Member
    edited May 2021
    No absolutely not, like many others I consider myself a dps purist. I will not partake of combat information, action logs or go so low as to read my action tooltips. Its crazy how toxic people will get once they know that information, one time a teammate was going off on me for healing the boss instead of the tank, but let me ask you, how exactly would he know that without looking at the numbers? I just wanted to experience the game by pressing the buttons that felt right, not be noanni'd by some guy. Anyways we had to kick him of course, we can't stand for elitism in our group, we are so much better than that. Sadly the raid group didn't work in the end though, even after a fair round of kicking people alphabetically or by how much the guild leader liked them. When it comes to testing abilities I want to remain as free of information as possible. And I'm happy to report that I know almost nothing.

    edit: this post is satire btw
  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I would use it. If I started raiding, I might use it a lot.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Nope, but you bet your ass competitive min-maxer guilds will require their members to use them. There's also the potential for players trying to create a system where you can quickly share the details of such a testing room, allowing people to start discriminating on that information.

    Discrimination based on performance is rare outside of WoW - and is present in WoW due to how easy it is to replace players as opposed to how easy it is to get that performance information.

    In all other games I have played with heavy combat tracker use, combat trackers are used by a very small minority that have a superior complex to further that complex (though these people are never heard from again as soon as someone deflates their self-agrandizing opinion of themselves by outperforming them).

    These people would have this superior complex with or without a combat tracker, but a combat tracker is the only tool players have to deflate it. I am of the theory that this happened to Steven once, which is why he is against combat trackers. It is the only explination that really fits, knowing his gaming history.

    Rather that being a tool for toxicity, the vast, vast majority of their use in all non-WoW games that I have played has been in persuit of improvement - whether that is self improvement or assisting others that want to improve on actually being able to do so.

    That said, I wouldn't use or require the usage of a system like the OP is describing. I am only interested in real data, not clinical data.
  • rikardp98rikardp98 Member
    edited May 2021
    No I probably won't. Training rooms and dummys may be useful to train once rotation, but that rotation is in perfect conditions. During an encounter with mechanics you really never get to use your "perfect" rotation. So to do good dps on a boss you need "real life" experience, Knowing the mechanics and your class so good that you can think on your feet and know what ability to use to do the most damage, healing or whatever role you have on that encounter.
  • PotatoMasherAnniePotatoMasherAnnie Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I am unsurprised so many people tie knowing DPS numbers to toxicity - I have seen that happen, of course. But I personally would love a training dummy. Not so I can compare myself to others or anything like that. Part of what I love about PvE combat is perfecting how I play and I would find a training room really useful to that end.
  • Vhaeyne wrote: »
    I have a training dummy on my lawn in FFXIV. I spend an amount of time at that dummy that some people would find staggering. I have waited in ques for up to 30mins at a time maintaining full DPS on the dummy.

    The first thing I do when I log on to FFXIV is spend like 5 mins at the dummy to warm up.

    So yes, I would use the hell out of it.

    After reading this I would probably also use a training room or a dummy to warm up. After two or three days off I can see this being really useful.
  • I would use it to test different potential rotations for different scenarios.
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    Inixia wrote: »
    I just wanted to experience the game by pressing the buttons that felt right, not be noanni'd by some guy.

    Hahaha, being "noaani'd" should totally become a recognised Ashes phrase.
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  • I am unsurprised so many people tie knowing DPS numbers to toxicity - I have seen that happen, of course. But I personally would love a training dummy. Not so I can compare myself to others or anything like that. Part of what I love about PvE combat is perfecting how I play and I would find a training room really useful to that end.

    Having training room or a training specific freehold, would be very useful to test new rotations and builds, or as you said, improving once performance and getting more comfortable with once class.
  • ViBunjaViBunja Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Nope, but you bet your ass competitive min-maxer guilds will require their members to use them. There's also the potential for players trying to create a system where you can quickly share the details of such a testing room, allowing people to start discriminating on that information.

    Discrimination based on performance is rare outside of WoW - and is present in WoW due to how easy it is to replace players as opposed to how easy it is to get that performance information.

    In all other games I have played with heavy combat tracker use, combat trackers are used by a very small minority that have a superior complex to further that complex (though these people are never heard from again as soon as someone deflates their self-agrandizing opinion of themselves by outperforming them).

    These people would have this superior complex with or without a combat tracker, but a combat tracker is the only tool players have to deflate it. I am of the theory that this happened to Steven once, which is why he is against combat trackers. It is the only explination that really fits, knowing his gaming history.

    Rather that being a tool for toxicity, the vast, vast majority of their use in all non-WoW games that I have played has been in persuit of improvement - whether that is self improvement or assisting others that want to improve on actually being able to do so.

    That said, I wouldn't use or require the usage of a system like the OP is describing. I am only interested in real data, not clinical data.

    But most people come from WoW. So you bet that's going to happen, DPS meters also helped in the destruction of socializing, and just created the meta of kicking the person who can't DPS instead of talking and improving with their party/raid.

    RETURN TO MONKE - reject modernity, embrace tradition. It is the only way. The way back.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    I am unsurprised so many people tie knowing DPS numbers to toxicity - I have seen that happen, of course. But I personally would love a training dummy. Not so I can compare myself to others or anything like that. Part of what I love about PvE combat is perfecting how I play and I would find a training room really useful to that end.
    I don't know why you're surprised that so many people tie DPS meters to toxicity.
    If it weren't a significant population, Steven would not have the view he has...and the experienced devs would not agree with him.

    I might use a training dummy - I might even use training dummies to coordinate and strategize with my day-to-day groupmates. DPS numbers would not be what we're looking at to form tactics and strategies.

    (My experience with DPS meter toxicity is from NWO)
  • Lord MathisLord Mathis Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I agree that dps meters can be "toxic" at some times. I think the real issue is not with the dps meter but with the try hards on the internet not allowing people into raids or not being willing to training low dps players. Makes it rough for people like myself that are new to MMOs.

    I like the RP of training dummies a lot if DPS meters aren't going to be a thing. I like the idea of using training dummies as they were intended. In wow I never touched a dummy because I knew what dps I was dropping in raid from the raid logging website and I could just practice my rotation out in the world with enemies that were more interesting. If there are no meters I think I would really get into having training dummies.

    Just a side note it might be cool if guild halls could have their own training room. Possibly make it more advanced then just dummies like dummies on tracks that move around to simulate basic boss level mechanics. Guilds could meet up at the halls with noobies and take them through the ropes showing of mechanics and helping them practice their rotation. That and a designated guild sparing area would be awesome additions :smile:
  • rikardp98rikardp98 Member
    edited May 2021
    ViBunja wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Nope, but you bet your ass competitive min-maxer guilds will require their members to use them. There's also the potential for players trying to create a system where you can quickly share the details of such a testing room, allowing people to start discriminating on that information.

    Discrimination based on performance is rare outside of WoW - and is present in WoW due to how easy it is to replace players as opposed to how easy it is to get that performance information.

    In all other games I have played with heavy combat tracker use, combat trackers are used by a very small minority that have a superior complex to further that complex (though these people are never heard from again as soon as someone deflates their self-agrandizing opinion of themselves by outperforming them).

    These people would have this superior complex with or without a combat tracker, but a combat tracker is the only tool players have to deflate it. I am of the theory that this happened to Steven once, which is why he is against combat trackers. It is the only explination that really fits, knowing his gaming history.

    Rather that being a tool for toxicity, the vast, vast majority of their use in all non-WoW games that I have played has been in persuit of improvement - whether that is self improvement or assisting others that want to improve on actually being able to do so.

    That said, I wouldn't use or require the usage of a system like the OP is describing. I am only interested in real data, not clinical data.

    But most people come from WoW. So you bet that's going to happen, DPS meters also helped in the destruction of socializing, and just created the meta of kicking the person who can't DPS instead of talking and improving with their party/raid.

    RETURN TO MONKE - reject modernity, embrace tradition. It is the only way. The way back.

    If dps meters killed socializing, how come wow classic is so popular and a very social game?

    I have never ever seen someone thinking that giving the true facts and the pure numbers in any situation was equal to less socializing. Just look at the science community, people or scientist talk very very much about the facts given to them and are very very social between each other.

    What really killed socializing in games like wow is the group finder / raid finder. This meant that you no longer needed to find a group by talking to people, or forming a guild to do the raids. Now you could just start the game, jump into the group finder and kill bosses and getting personal loot, without talking to a single player.

    Question, how would you talk to someone about "improving with their party" if you didn't have any facts to base your so called "knowledge" on?
  • rikardp98rikardp98 Member
    edited May 2021
    Dygz wrote: »
    I am unsurprised so many people tie knowing DPS numbers to toxicity - I have seen that happen, of course. But I personally would love a training dummy. Not so I can compare myself to others or anything like that. Part of what I love about PvE combat is perfecting how I play and I would find a training room really useful to that end.
    I don't know why you're surprised that so many people tie DPS meters to toxicity.
    If it weren't a significant population, Steven would not have the view he has...and the experienced devs would not agree with him.

    I might use a training dummy - I might even use training dummies to coordinate and strategize with my day-to-day groupmates. DPS numbers would not be what we're looking at to form tactics and strategies.

    (My experience with DPS meter toxicity is from NWO)

    She said "unsurprised", meaning she is not surprised
  • rikardp98rikardp98 Member
    edited May 2021
    Dygz wrote: »
    I am unsurprised so many people tie knowing DPS numbers to toxicity - I have seen that happen, of course. But I personally would love a training dummy. Not so I can compare myself to others or anything like that. Part of what I love about PvE combat is perfecting how I play and I would find a training room really useful to that end.
    I don't know why you're surprised that so many people tie DPS meters to toxicity.
    If it weren't a significant population, Steven would not have the view he has...and the experienced devs would not agree with him.

    I might use a training dummy - I might even use training dummies to coordinate and strategize with my day-to-day groupmates. DPS numbers would not be what we're looking at to form tactics and strategies.

    (My experience with DPS meter toxicity is from NWO)

    The only reason Steven has his opinion is because he probably got his ass handed to him, making him realize that he is a bad player. He didn't like the facts so he is trying to hide it :)

    Why do I assume this? Look at the pvp clip of him and some devs. He is clicking his spells and his movements are soooo slow xD

    He thought he was good, he then got the facts, couldn't handle the facts, got mad and toxic, blamed the dps meters.

    And they do not agree with him, that is why they are adding the combat log.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    I agree that dps meters can be "toxic" at some times. I think the real issue is not with the dps meter but with the try hards on the internet not allowing people into raids or not being willing to training low dps players. Makes it rough for people like myself that are new to MMOs.

    I like the RP of training dummies a lot if DPS meters aren't going to be a thing. I like the idea of using training dummies as they were intended. In wow I never touched a dummy because I knew what dps I was dropping in raid from the raid logging website and I could just practice my rotation out in the world with enemies that were more interesting. If there are no meters I think I would really get into having training dummies.
    It's a factor of the DPS meters. Because gamers care more about being uber efficient than they do about RP.
    So, they are going to focus more on the numbers than player choice in crafting a character when it comes to abilities.
    And, once devs implement DPS meters as a feature, they begin to design encounters around the expectation of DPS meters being used.

    There are people who have said that if Tank/Tank gives the highest DPS, that's what raiders will demand - even though the design is for any of the 8 classes to be viable main tanks for endgame content.
    Because the goal is not simply to defeat the encounter(s), but to do so with maximum efficiency as dictated by the numbers.
    "You think you're good, but I can show you by the numbers that you aren't as good as you think you are."
  • neuroguyneuroguy Member, Alpha Two
    Depending on how easy it is to respec I would play around with different builds. Otherwise I wouldn't really try to min/max dps unless I found myself really under performing or being out performed by another player of the same class.
  • I like the idea of a training dummy or training room which shows numbers like DPS. This idea doesn't even relate to the argument of DPS meters and toxicity.

    People who say other people don't want DPS meters because they are bad or because they can't handle the facts kind of support the argument of DPS meters being linked to toxicity.

    Group finder and lack of player reputation is a big reason for toxic behaviour and kicking. If a player is perceived to be performing poorly, then there is no real consequence for kicking since they can be easily replaced with no effort and it won't go against you since nobody would know who you are. This still happens without DPS meters.

    Another big issue is that encounters and classes are designed in such a way where the DPS value matters a lot. There are still other important values but they don't hold the significance of DPS.

    A potential issue with this game is if groups decide to kick players because they could be easily replaced using a family summon.
  • Yep definitely, and if a training room or training dummy won't be a thing, i will simple measure my dps and best rotations through other methods.
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  • Dygz wrote: »
    I agree that dps meters can be "toxic" at some times. I think the real issue is not with the dps meter but with the try hards on the internet not allowing people into raids or not being willing to training low dps players. Makes it rough for people like myself that are new to MMOs.

    I like the RP of training dummies a lot if DPS meters aren't going to be a thing. I like the idea of using training dummies as they were intended. In wow I never touched a dummy because I knew what dps I was dropping in raid from the raid logging website and I could just practice my rotation out in the world with enemies that were more interesting. If there are no meters I think I would really get into having training dummies.

    It's a factor of the DPS meters. Because gamers care more about being uber efficient than they do about RP.
    So, they are going to focus more on the numbers than player choice in crafting a character when it comes to abilities.
    And, once devs implement DPS meters as a feature, they begin to design encounters around the expectation of DPS meters being used.

    There are people who have said that if Tank/Tank gives the highest DPS, that's what raiders will demand - even though the design is for any of the 8 classes to be viable main tanks for endgame content.
    Because the goal is not simply to defeat the encounter(s), but to do so with maximum efficiency as dictated by the numbers.
    "You think you're good, but I can show you by the numbers that you aren't as good as you think you are."

    haha what is wrong with "You think you're good, but I can show you by the numbers that you aren't as good as you think you are."?

    AND, some people care about being "uber efficient", and some care about RP. No play style is better than the other. Play with people you want to play with and do not discriminate people because the do not like the way you play the game.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    That will be much easier to do in a game that does not support DPS meters.
    Exactly.
  • BardticBardtic Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    Along with what others have said about how knowing exact numbers for everything turns the game into a min/max where devs have to create and balance around that, I think having a training room would also become a form of gatekeeping while people ask you to send a screenshot of your DPS in the training room.
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  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    No I wouldn't use it. The only time I've used Combat Dummies was in Black Desert Online to gain skill points over night. I don't have time to bash a Combat Dummy and play the game. There is enough education in active combat for me to digest without the need for a test room. I took the skill point option because it enhanced the speed at which I gained skill points with Active Combat and Passive Combat during downtime.
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  • InixiaInixia Member
    edited May 2021
    I'm surprised how many people seem to be conflating having a simple training dummy with their arguments for raid dps parsing. Those two are... not very similar at all haha they have very different roles.

    A training dummy is just there to see what works in a convenient way without having to go out and try the same thing against monsters, it isn't going to cause 'every guild to be elitist', kill socialization or to only care about min maxing. The person on the training dummy is usually just some average kid trying his best to figure out new spec. There are some really wild fears being created around here over something pretty small.

    edit: like whatever you think (like or don't like) about raid parsing, a training dummy really shouldn't be wrenched into that conversation.
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