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Immersive Enemies / AI
DerToastinator
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
Prepare yourself, this is gonna be a long one and this is obviously just my opinion:
Enemies and their behaviour (NOT RAIDS)
First, I want to say, that the last thing I want to see, when I step onto a field or stroll into the woods is a bunch of different NPCs standing there, waiting to be attacked or aggroed. This just does not engage me in any way. I want to see something immersive.
Now, what do I mean by that?
Observative Actions
I want to be able to stand at the edge of this field/wood/lake and observe. In my opinion, looking at an enemy’s appearance and behaviour should tell me at least some information on how the fight is going to play out. Action A should tell me, that it is capable of said action in combat. While appearance A or B should give me hints on whether or not he can take a lot of damage or if it is evasive. If at least half of the NPCs have one of these descriptive actions the world will feel way more immersive and combat can get a little more interesting, without making it unfairly difficult, because the player did not know the mechanic. “Show, not tell”.
Reactive Actions
Not every action has to be shown in advance. BUT if action B is only shown during combat, the player should have the time to realize and react to the attack. If that is not possible the outcome of action C should at least not kill the player or leave him without a chance to recover. Otherwise, the player will rightfully get upset and annoyed. So, if the player fails to react to these kinds of actions, he should be able to learn from the mistake and react next time. This gives a sense of mastering the encounter.
Active Actions
This is something, Ashes of Creation are already planning to do with monsters trying to attack cities and players having to defend them. I would like to take this to the next level. What if there were a few enemies, that take action when left alone for to long. No playeraction results in action D. This could also be an observable action.
These behaviours should make the player think, that the NPCs just do their daily routine and are not just waiting to be slaughtered by you. Animals hunt for prey. Humans try to snare you with a net and then run for help, which you can prevent. That Rockmonster deep in the underground cave gets bored and comes to the surface to abduct the next player it sees.
I will continue to give examples in further posts beneath this one.
Difficulty distribution
This may leave you thinking: But Toast, that would make some enemies way to complicated to be taken on by one single player.
The thing is: Yes. And no. Every normal NPC should be killable solo. Just not by everyone.
If I had to come up with numbers, I would say, make 50% easy to handle. The challenge should be a little to none.
30% could have observative or reactive behaviours and therefore be a little more challenging. These are your standard questmobs.
Take 15% and give them both observative and reactive actions, make them mechanically hard but still manageable by the broad audience.
Now all you got is 5%. Those should be terrifying to play against alone. Only if you get the mechanics and have good movement, these should be soloable and therefore be a real challenge. This should however not mean, that their stats are inflated! Don’t give them too good drops or make them (main)quest enemies though, you will see why.
Making these 5% hard might mean, that some players, who refuse to group and insist on doing everything alone despite not being THAT good at the game, won’t ever defeat them. That is ok in my eyes. Remember, they still have 95% of enemies to fight! I must be persistent here. Get friends or git gud.
TLDR: Give enemies interesting/ immersive mechanics and make a few of them hard but not impossible.
Enemies and their behaviour (NOT RAIDS)
First, I want to say, that the last thing I want to see, when I step onto a field or stroll into the woods is a bunch of different NPCs standing there, waiting to be attacked or aggroed. This just does not engage me in any way. I want to see something immersive.
Now, what do I mean by that?
Observative Actions
I want to be able to stand at the edge of this field/wood/lake and observe. In my opinion, looking at an enemy’s appearance and behaviour should tell me at least some information on how the fight is going to play out. Action A should tell me, that it is capable of said action in combat. While appearance A or B should give me hints on whether or not he can take a lot of damage or if it is evasive. If at least half of the NPCs have one of these descriptive actions the world will feel way more immersive and combat can get a little more interesting, without making it unfairly difficult, because the player did not know the mechanic. “Show, not tell”.
Reactive Actions
Not every action has to be shown in advance. BUT if action B is only shown during combat, the player should have the time to realize and react to the attack. If that is not possible the outcome of action C should at least not kill the player or leave him without a chance to recover. Otherwise, the player will rightfully get upset and annoyed. So, if the player fails to react to these kinds of actions, he should be able to learn from the mistake and react next time. This gives a sense of mastering the encounter.
Active Actions
This is something, Ashes of Creation are already planning to do with monsters trying to attack cities and players having to defend them. I would like to take this to the next level. What if there were a few enemies, that take action when left alone for to long. No playeraction results in action D. This could also be an observable action.
These behaviours should make the player think, that the NPCs just do their daily routine and are not just waiting to be slaughtered by you. Animals hunt for prey. Humans try to snare you with a net and then run for help, which you can prevent. That Rockmonster deep in the underground cave gets bored and comes to the surface to abduct the next player it sees.
I will continue to give examples in further posts beneath this one.
Difficulty distribution
This may leave you thinking: But Toast, that would make some enemies way to complicated to be taken on by one single player.
The thing is: Yes. And no. Every normal NPC should be killable solo. Just not by everyone.
If I had to come up with numbers, I would say, make 50% easy to handle. The challenge should be a little to none.
30% could have observative or reactive behaviours and therefore be a little more challenging. These are your standard questmobs.
Take 15% and give them both observative and reactive actions, make them mechanically hard but still manageable by the broad audience.
Now all you got is 5%. Those should be terrifying to play against alone. Only if you get the mechanics and have good movement, these should be soloable and therefore be a real challenge. This should however not mean, that their stats are inflated! Don’t give them too good drops or make them (main)quest enemies though, you will see why.
Making these 5% hard might mean, that some players, who refuse to group and insist on doing everything alone despite not being THAT good at the game, won’t ever defeat them. That is ok in my eyes. Remember, they still have 95% of enemies to fight! I must be persistent here. Get friends or git gud.
TLDR: Give enemies interesting/ immersive mechanics and make a few of them hard but not impossible.
9
Comments
Adhara White (World of Warcraft BoA)
This guy is a great example for reactive actions. Every spell in his kit has a cast timer. You can ether evade or interrupt his attacks but never both. Everything he does packs a serious punch but it’s not unfair. If you let him, Adhara can and will heal himself for an immense amount, seeming unbalanced but that is actually just checking if you are looking out what spell he is channelling.
Villagers (Bloodborne)
The first pack of enemies in Bloodborne tell you nearly everything by their appearance (even a bit of lore). They walk slowly and have different weapons (rifle, axe, pitchfork, torch, ect.). They attack in packs or try to ambush you. Shown by one of the first villagers jumping out of boxes whilst you are still to far away for him to reach you.
If you think, you have an example, dont be shy and share it.
The Flanggler
As you might know, the Flanggler will blend in with harvestable plants and try to attack you, if you harvest it. THAT already is a reactive action and I LOVE it (I hope the flower on its head changes to be the harvestable flower). Imagine though, that this has never happened to you before. The first time being attacked out of nowhere would feel unfair. “How was I supposed to know that?” you might say to yourself.
Imagine, that if a bunny hopps to close to the Fanggler he will jump out and eat the little critter, which wanted to eat the flower and was drawn to it. Or let it be a big moth, you get the point. Now there is a chance, you see that behaviour beforehand and you can prepare yourself.
Added bonus: The Flanggler is now part of a foodchain and is way more than just a trap for gathering players. There could even be some mob that searches and eats Flanglers. Maby, said moth only lures the Flanggler out to then paralyze it with spores and feast on it.
Dear Intrepid-Team, you don’t have do overdo it with the immersion. I get it. It’s a game.
But why not tell your deer, bunnies and mice to seek out harvestables and nibble on them for a few seconds. It would help us find them and it would give the Flanggler a nice meal from time to time.
The wolf
When I go into the woods in world of warcraft for example, I am bound to find some wolves scattered around the area with other animals, like giant spiders, panthers or humanoids.
I don’t know why that would ever be the case. Wolves live in packs and if I see a wolf, a spider and a human together, I might think I’m in some kind of bad tavern joke.
If by chance they would be scattered, to give the player a chance to fight one by himself, then I would suggest having one bigger wolf (the alpha) running around in that area, who can howl and get the others to attack you.
I think Kingdoms of Amalur handled wolves interesting. They where illusive, kept their distance and waited for the opportunity to strike (preferably from behind). They did modest dmg and had low health. Therefore, them attacking in groups felt manageable. You could ether evade and take them out one by one quickly or you could rely on AoE to get them down before they got you.
This behaviour could be shown by them hunting or attacking human NPCs.
There could even be an active event, where if wolves don’t get attacked for a long time, they form a pack, seek out the next road/roam the area and if a player is in a large area (because they smell him) they howl periodically and chase that player down, until he kills them alone or with a group or he leaves their territory. THAT would sell the feeling of being hunted by a wolfpack and makes for a good story to tell your friends. If you survive.
(This behaviour also works for hyenas and raptors)
Of course, solo life will be harder but not impossible. I don't know how effective npcs will be at deterant though. Both groups and solo players love a good challenge. I'm not sure how difficult encounters will be, even at raid level though. Sometimes the combat I've seen reminds me of simple situations possible. Even the current tank spec reeks of simplicity.
There are many ways they can be, but it's best that they aren't too good at killing you or too weak to even harm you. I actually liked how in classic WoW mobs of your level could solo you if you slacked too much.
U.S. East
I think you want the word 'observable' mein Freund.
I think the value of this mechanic wouldn't add much long term. After seeing a few different enemies you'd kinda get the gist of how things work.
I think the biggest gain to be had in 'immersive' mobs is diversity - behaviourally, socially, difficulty distrobution, weakness, etc.
Some may run and require special means to even engage with. Some may attack unprovoked, or just be territorial.
Some may be only ever be isolated. Some may only exist in very challenging herds/groups with varying roles and abilities and combatants (a grazing herd of calves, meres, aged beasts with only large alpha's that will fight, or a tribal group that retreats to assault with numbers).
Some may be exceptionally tough for melee fighters but vulnerable to certain casters, and vice versa.
The more things they do aside from wander and fight the better- a threatening display, resource collection (maybe why they're worth hunting?), perhaps even something non-combative.. some beings could just want to be friends, or benevolent. Follow you for a bit. Or Maybe something extremely dangerous that will stalk you...
Single, free standing, attack/run enemies, especially if they're all the same 'level', might be too brainless to engage me anymore.
PC hunters. The critters that detect your presence and then seek and destroy. Applicable for predators. Dragons that spot you on your fancy flying mount and pursue for a tasty snack.
Smarter bandits or humanoid characters in general. Can assess relative strength in numbers and then adjust tactics. Are you worth their time?
Herd animals that actually herd and can be very dangerous when spooked in large numbers. Might even be an interesting PVP tactic to trigger a stampeded against an unsuspecting group of players.
Creatures reacting to the actions around them. Some flee when combat is near whereas others may be more opportunistic and join in when the combatants are weak and tired for an easy encounter. Bandits swooping in at the end of a battle to demand your goods or your lives.
In general more creature awareness of the world around them and corresponding behaviors.
Yes, i know Dygz. It was all a bit too long.
Therefore this will be shorter:
Swarm of Flies
If you leave a unlooted body out for too long, Flies could sparn and attack you if you want to loot the corpse!
Thats it
Heh, I like this idea.
I didn't know what you meant. Thx for showing me this!
Alright guys I have another one after a long time.
Thanks for being patient with me on this one.
As I just posted on this thread about environmental hazards:
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/51075/what-kind-of-enviromental-hazards-would-you-like-to-see-in-the-game
I stated one hazard that combines the slipperyness of something that might not seem slippery at first glance and the cunningness of a diabolical creature.
I present you,
The gigantic antlion!
Imagine this, you stride up a dune in the middle of the desert. Just as you reach the top and look at the map to recalculate your position on this elevated ground, you feel it rumble underneath you. Looking down, you see that you already have slipped a few meters down a funnel shaped opening in the sand. Something is digging down there, making the sand beneath you tumble down into the middle of this trap. With it, you sink deeper and deeper. As you are half way down the slope, it emerges from its burrow. A fearsome face with razer sharp claws as a mouth tries to grab hold of you. It greeds for your flesh, digging faster and letting out a horrible screech. There is only one way out of this. You HAVE to fight.
To be honest. A lot of this boils down to one mechanic, and that is: make the NPCs aware of each other. The FarCry series is a good reference to this. You can come to a camp and they would already be busy fighting a tiger or something.
Makes you feel like you aren't the only actor in this equation.
Aaaaaanyway... back to business:
I have two NPCs in mind with two design philosophies behind their behaviour.
As some of you may know, Intrepid made a four-winged falcon.
I love the model and adore the idea. What bugged me in the Alpha one test is...
These winged creatures only fly 1 meter above the ground. Personally, I'd love to see intrepid bring some verticality into the game. I have seen owls and buzzards fly above the ground in hordes of 10, tightly packed together so the kill quest isn't to tedious, for years and years. Blizzards birds are famously flightless.
I argue, making birds actually use the advantage of flying.
Ranged attacks could miss 70% of the time unless its attacking you.
Melee fighters have figure out a way to ground the creature or wait for the right moment to counterattack.
In the contrary the flying beast has a high crit chance, striking from above.
However, it has a low health pool to reflect its fragile nature.
... a good way to farm flyers would be to know their nest locations or to learn to aim good with the action combat camera.
The nest thing made me realise... cutting down a tree could sometimes make a bird attack you for destroying it's nesting place.
Recap: use the vertical space given to you! At sea, that might be the space below!
Onwards to my second idea.
This one is about luck and randomness. A rare spawn could be something like a fairy, a witch, a leprechaun or a completely new creature.
It shows up in random locations and searches for another NPC to befriend.
That NPC becomes charmed by the fairy. They may play something together when you see them.
In addition the fairy has 3 auras, each with a bigger range than the other.
These auras each give a debuff with a random hindrance to a creature or player affected by it. Stacking 3 times and having visible effects on you and your surroundings.
The debuff may read "a fairy is nearby". As it stacks, it may switch to "you are getting closer" and finally you may read "you feel the weight of the mythical creatures presence".
Now here's the catch. If you don't initiate combat right away, or if you pay attention during the fight, you might notice, that the fairy periodically cleanses the debuff from its friend and turns it into a corresponding buff. This however is a area of effect spell!
With that knowledge you have multiple options to affect this fight in your favour.
Wich you most likely will have to do, because a fairy friend is a force to be reckoned with.
You could try to get into the are dispell to even out the fight. From there you can ether try to kill the friend, wich makes the fairy try to flee, or kite the friend and attempt to burst down the relatively high health fairy.
Another option would be to pull the friend out of the cleanse or disrupt the rather short cast of the fairy to even out the fight.
If you are really skilled you can try to pull the friend out of the spell and jump into it yourself. Now you showed maximum skill with your positioning and are rewarded with a buff that allows you to turn the tides heavily.
I believe, since these creatures are fairly hard to beat, they should also drop something of good value. Fairydust, that let's you fly for 30 seconds. With its rarity this wouldn't be THAT gamebreaking, right? (Since guild leaders and such are allowed to fly anyway)
What do you guys think?
Man, I would LOVE to know that the team thinks of these ideas.
I know, some of these things are much extra work, but I believe it would make the world so much more alive. I wana start this game and hear it breath, figuratively.
Please don't make the game breath... thats creepy.
And the tiger might also hunt YOU.
I love the monkey - hawk - crop triangle!
Great idea
Let me add to them!
I would love to see a forest area that is relatively basic at day with a lot of deer and other mobs, but once darkness or a full moon hits wolves come out of their dens and turn berserk and attack everything.
Those wolves should be very strong(cattered towards groups) and use their ability to pick up scents to have aggro ranges that are further than the player’s eyesight in the dark.
As soon as a wolve picked up a scent you would hear a growl in far distance and you know you will probably get jumped in a few seconds unless you run. Solo players should avoid this area at all costs as soon as dawn approaches
Another idea i would like to see are ant type of creatures. Once you find a worker ant it turns into a scavenger hunt to get to the hidden nest and kill the queen.
When you kill one of the worker ants it tries to communicate with it‘s colony on it‘s dying breaths. This gives away the rough direction of it’s nest, which you have to further narrow down by looking for more ants and kill them for information until you have a good guess of it‘s location.
The closer to the nest the more soldier ants you will encounter and the more intense the battles will get!
I really like this. Heard animals that produce low quality gatherable however there is an atypical (example albino) that can very rarely sometimes spawn in the middle of the heard and therefore difficult to get too solo so it would be a big group task for a master gatherer to be able to gather that specific resources.
Really think this is a great point. It should be hard to harvest/kill flying creatures because in a life and death situation I would think they would fly away at (~50% health) not just stay there and attack (unless defending a nest as you said).
AHA! You gave me an idea!
I think it was 1000 bears, to be honest.
Anyway!
Bears! What do they eat? Honey? Nope.
Cute little baby seals? That's polar bears, you are getting closer.
Bears eat Fish! At least brown bears are famously known to fish in rivers for salmons and they are quite skilled at that.
Let's say, you see a bear in the woods. He is slowly wandering towards the near river. Looking for a tasty snack. If you follow the bear, you might see it performing its swipe attack on a fishing node. After that, a fish is in its mouth with a bleeding effect.
Here, you can learn 2 things. The bears swipe has a bleed and bears lead you to fish.
Kill the bear and fish yourself to get the most out of your day farming.
Even smarter, fight the bear until it flees and seek it out for more fishing spots.
At this point, I should address the flight mechanic.
Most creatures, besides millennials, want to live. It's their nature.
An intelligent beeing will most likely try to run from a loosing fight, if given the opportunity. Humanoids or canines will do this to get to the safety of the group.
I would think, they would attemt to back down after loosing 80% of their live.
An animal (like a bear) could fight till they lost 90% of their health and only try to flee, if not attacked for 3 seconds. Making it seem, they are waiting for an opportunity.
Now what about non fleeing characters? Beasts, demons and the undead?
Don't worry, I'll get to those creatures next post.
Until then, what's something, you want to see in creature behaviour?
Maby you have ideas for the wilderness of the rainforest?
Swarm mode is supposed to be a thing(testing in A2).
Then I can't wait for A2 to happen
Speaking of swarms of enemies.... grrrreat sagway for my next topic, thankyouverymuch.
The undead Swarm
You wander upon a field of battle. Many have fallen here. Corpses of enemies lie everywhere around you. The thick fog lying on the plane obstructs your sight.
It's cold.
You wander around, searching for valuables. Then, you hear it. A low pitched breath infront of you. Out of the fog a dark shadow emerges. It's an undead, risen from the earth. You ready your mace, swing and strike with all the force you can put in one blow.
It's head splatters and it goes down.
That was easy, you think to yourself, but it's not over. The sound of your strike attracted three more of those godless creatures! You cannot hit this hard again. Not without a little rest at least. One, two, three hits and the next zombie falls to the ground. You think you have won some ground, but you are mistaken. For every one you slay, 2 more seem to rise from the soil beneath you. Will you have to run, can you even at this point? Or is the only way out of this to slay each and everyone of them?
So here's the magic behind that one.
You spawn zombies under ground and out of sight for the player with fog.
Some stand above, just like regular NPCs. If you aggro them, they come and fight you, but since they are dead, they fall apart easy and die almost to anything, BUT if they die they spawn 0 to 3 more, already aggroed onto you! Some slow, some faster. The thing is, you get a stacking "Slayer of the Undead" buff for 15 seconds, every time you kill one of those bastards, lowering the chance to spawn new zombies. They however hit you with a debuff, that lower your stats... maby your max HP for 30 seconds... also a stacking debuff. Now it becomes a fight against the horde and they are plenty!
Shout out to the youtuber Zee Bashew for the inspiration in his animated DnD video.
I think depending on the intelligence of the monster it could have different abilities. An ogre is not going to be agile and is going to try to smash you. However, a smart bandit or a magical creature might trap you and put you in a disadvantage. It would be cool if the developers could program some enemies to actually kite you like a real player would. It would be cool to have to reposition your character lest a mob gets behind you and tries to backstab you. Or if a pack of three mobs tries to flank you from three different positions. I would also like to see rare mobs be more difficult to defeat. Normally rare mobs are marked as silver, raid mobs are marked as gold, maybe dangerous mobs could be marked as red or have a skull across their avatar to let you know this is going to be a challenging fight.
Torgast had that in world of warcraft. There were some dungeon bosses that would heal themselves which you had to interrupt that ability, poison you, and charge at you. You had to plan which ability to use and when it was acceptable to take damage to beat the boss.
I just want to say INTREPID - please reach out to this person and perhaps some of the other commenters! These are great ideas that would add to the life of your world. I know that you absolutely want this world to feel alive as it really is a passion project - and you are currently on a recruitment hunt. Not saying any full time jobs need be dished out, but perhaps reaching out and collaborating would be a worthwhile venture.
Very much enjoyed reading through all these concepts.
I just wanted to let you know that
I hope you all had pleasant holidays and for those who celebrate it, merry Christmas
In theme for the holidays, I thought of an enemy, that doesn't want to fight you.
I present you the...
Mythical reindeer
This creature can be seen only in winter(real life arround Christmas).
You may hear the sound of small bells trough the snow. Allerting you of its presence.
If you find it and attack it immediately, it will just flee for a few seconds and return to beeing docile. If attacked 2 times more, it will take flight and then be gone.
What to do with an enemy, that doesn't want to fight? Easy! Befriend it! Find out its favorite food by talking to the towns hunter, story tellers or just watch it for long enough to see, that it loves to nibble on missile toes. Get some and head back to find the reindeer. Approach it while crouching and feed it the missile toe and receive a present. For each additional missile toe you give it, you will get gifts, up to a maximum of 5-10, before it flies away.
Now here's the catch:
A player can open only presents.
Presents and what ever is inside cannot be traded.
However, the gifts cannot be opened but only be traded!
This turns a gift into a present and turns you, who has gotten the presents, into the bringer of joy and exightment to your friends!
I wish you all only the best and hope, you have a lovely time!
Until we meet again, maby next year.
I just came up with a new immersive game mechanic and it's usable for a mount ability too!
What do you guys think about this:
There are reptiles already in the game... what if they had an ability to shed their tail as a decoy if attacked? That would also be usable for a mount. Press the ability to get away from a fight.
The tail would ether just taunt in an AoE for 1 or 2 seconds or it would do a small AoE with damage and the reptile (+rider) would get like 2 seconds of stealth.
This could have a 3 min cooldown.
You should be able to see it, if a griffin or such tries to snack a reptile from above.
I'm BACK babyyy.
I'd imagine that those dog-creatures are somehow domesticated. Therefore they must be fed. How about, the Minetaur had to feed the dog from time to time. This buffs the dog with obedience. If you attack the Minetaur while the dog is hungry you could have the dog attack the Minetaur. It beeing hungry could be indicated by it barking or growling at its master.
I'd imagine that is a behaviour for higher lvl or elite packs.