Late Night Crafting

Thoughts on how to make crafting the best. Also, I have read wiki, I know some of this aligns with stated ideas already, but I hope this will expand on the communities thought process and hopefully give an added suggestion/way of thinking about your systems. Also also I know I'm tardy to the party with the crafting subject in the Q&A, but I spent like 2 hours trying to write this and I just got the ideas tonight.

I was recently thinking about craft and to be honest I’m not sure why, but I thought about why crafting could be so different from game to game. Skyrim’s crafting is about as basic as it gets and honestly if you find that fun and rewarding great, however I don’t think it’s winning any awards. On the contrary I for some reason no lifed WoW cooking for basically no apparent reason and was having the most fun I’d ever had in the game… for all of a week. Don’t get me wrong it was great! However afterwards I just kind of felt that I experienced it all. If I needed it for fun, RP, or raids I wouldn’t mind farming it, but it wasn’t quite the same. So thinking about this lead me to think about crafting and make an in depth “essay” on what I believe to make crafting engaging and rewarding. So buckle up… this is probably going to be a long one.

The first thing I think should be tackled is how you craft. Obviously I don’t think you should remove the fetch quest bits (going out farming deer or gathering berries or fishing), but when we come back surely we can do something beyond pressing the “craft” button. FF14 makes this interesting with it’s synthesis mini-game although it’s not much more than knowing which skills to use. Perhaps this could be improved upon, but I’m not going to act like I know better than their designers, especially when I only really leveled a single profession. So I thought why not make it a simple mini-game and set out to find something simple, yet engaging. And I’m sure I didn’t find them all so if you’ve got a suggestion that could work please share (but remember this is an alpha and meant to be supplemental… we don’t want them to have to waste a few weeks coding the thing).

Quick note from future me: The following paragraph is merely a suggestion and I’m not saying some form of mini-game needs to be added. It’s simply something I feel could be more engaging since you can actually influence the process.

The first things that jumped out as really popular were racing, fist fighting, and puzzles and while puzzles could be interesting I worry that would/could fall into the FF14 problem. I encountered a few unique very niche games that wouldn’t exactly fit then the more complex ones like Gwent. Again these are a little too much. The morrowind persuasion minigame was another idea, but it felt a little too simple. I imagine trying that on repeat for a few hours and *shiver* no thanks. Sudden flashbacks caused a fit of terror when I remembered that the wii and mario party exist and Jesus Christ, why did I just skim through two hour plus videos for this random thought I had? Unfortunately all this did was help me narrow down likely candidates. I believe the only applicable mini-games would be time based/rhythm, spamming, or clicking targets. However I’m not sure the clicking bit would make sense and spamming would get old. After looking into this the winners I think I found for the most consideration came from… Yakuza’s karaoke (I know) and Red Dead Redemption’s Five Finger Fillet. Personally, I would say RDR’s game of quickly pressing buttons in order would be the most effective. It’s not complicated, you could easily adjust difficulty, and allow actual skill to enter the process. Furthermore it helps lower time gating from a rhythm game, because the better you are the faster the process. Add in random orders of preset buttons and suddenly even macros would be nearly impossible just based on how many combinations there could be.

Now that I’m a full word doc's page in let’s talk about progression! You know what doesn’t make sense? Me not being able to use a certain kind of ore, because I’m not skilled enough. You know what *is* really cool? Being able to specialize. I’ll return to skyrim for this bit, because I think it’s perfect. In Skyrim you've got every skill tree available and even if you just leveled up your two handed you can increase your healing magic. I don't quite like this but If you’re constantly forging swords you can reward players with a simple skill tree with points for say just making metal swords and not being able to put that into wooden clubs. Another idea for skill trees is to allow players to substitute materials/ingredients. For example using steel instead of iron or thick cotton (like with gambesons)instead of leather. Separately you could have a passive set of general skills like faster crafting, chance for higher quality, or just straight improved quality. Or even go full Dragon Age Inquisition and make different materials/ingredients give different effects… although that might be standard with cooking and alchemy.

Another important thing is customization. That said I really don’t feel the need to talk with this though, this is pretty much purely how in depth they’re going to make it. Obviously more is cooler, but that doesn't mean we need 20 options for a hilt and equally as many for the five other parts for one piece of gear.

Finally, I will end with this and I am aware this will not be applicable to all professions, but building up is one of the most rewarding bits of crafting. I tell you what I HATED making 6 separate dishes in Pandaria just to make 5 of those noodle carts, but guess what my favorite item is in game. That’s right Thunderfury Blessed Blade of the Windseeker! But the second is the noodle carts. This actually brings up another good point, please try to give some flex potential with showing off your skills. Obviously the gatherers can’t really and the smiths will by nature, but really I’m just asking for a noodle cart equivalent STEVEN PLEASE! It doesn’t have to be out at launch. I just want a food cart or something. Point is, that cart was damn near worthless, but it felt good cause you knew how much work it was and you got to flex having made it. Plus it was just fun. Even if you weren't RPing, just going out and using one was just awesome. That’s the peak in crafting because you can be just as if not more proud of doing that than some or even most content if hard enough and have recognition from others while potentially even helping them. Just to make sure it’s clear part of the reason why it felt so good, was every dish you made gave you a specific sub-skill-tree to level. While this isn’t necessary you did have to create several separate (also high quality) items, or dishes in this case, to create a “super item”. Again, you’re probably not going to be doing this with swords, but you could do it with ore purity. Add in that little challenge atop of crafting and I think you’ll have an incredibly engaging, rewarding, and satisfying crafting system.

Final thought after rereading wiki: I like the idea of different quality work stations and anyone who read through all that thank you and please feel free to rip out my heart if I said something stupid, unless it's about noodle carts being the second best item in game because I will reply in a strongly worded fashion!

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Songcaller

I preferred BDO Crafting. Although in BDO you had workers to glean most of the resources. The methods in crafting were quite basic but the options for crafters meant you could earn billions more than questers and mob grinders. The profit came from Imperial Crates given to npcs but you also made money from the community if you made Pet Food, Worker Food or Buff Food. I'm not a fan of mini games though so my Hunter never touched Sniper Rifles. I also like to craft instantly so I invest a lot of time to get the 4 billion silver Cook's Clothes with -4 second production time, killed a lot of world bosses to unlock the Supreme Tier Cooking Stall for another -1 Second Production Time and another - 2 Second production from the Cosmetic Skin, Alchemy stone of life - 2 Second Production time, then my production was 1 second. I doubt Ashes will have the same idea for the crafting system though. Production time started at 10 seconds.

Edit: For clarification/spell check.

Tulvir

Neurath wrote: »

I doubt Ashes will have the same idea for the crafting system though. Production time started at 10 seconds.

Edit: For clarification/spell check.

Actually in the wiki Steven talks about using Star Wars Galaxies as an inspiration. There's some rather in depth basics on it, and I think with some modern variants it will feel good. I figured people would be a little hesitant with a mini-game and it's not like I don't understand the reason for insta-crafts. I just wish they were a bit more challenging than killing some mobs, though I suppose if the product is high enough quality it could/would compensate.

I'm not really familiar with BDO's crafting, but it sounds like that had some form of upgrade/skill tree as well. Is that something you'd be interested in? I thought this might just be a neat little bit of spice thrown in and the max level would just be where they wanted crafting. It wouldn't have to change the speed, though that could be an option built in so eventually you get instantaneous crafting.

Songcaller

There was no skill tree in BDO for crafting but there was experience and ranks you could achieve. The higher the rank the better the bonuses, for example you could crafted 5 beer but receive 10 beer instead. I was aware Ashes Crafting will be based on SWG Crafting. I had hoped we would see Hairdressers and Tattooists but I don't think these SWG Aspects will be catered for.

I would prefer instant crafts but I'm used to a very long grind to reach Master Level. If the crafts aren't instant it could make the grind even longer. I'm not opposed to long grinds in crafting but I would like my crafting to be on par with my main level otherwise I can't make appropriate items and have to wait for end game to make items for my player toon.

You can upgrade your work tools (Hunting Rifles etc) in BDO, I expect you will be able to in Ashes as well.

Skyra

I posted this exact same thing few times but i feel this is good fit for this as thread as well.

When it comes to crafting what I find lacking in other games in general is lack of skill, bragging rights/reputation as crafter and fun during crafting. Crafting is usually a mindless clicking on recipe to progres skill and that is it. Most of the time it only exists to facilitate the economy or in worse case just for the sake of existing.
To fix this, my suggestion is to implement minigame/s that allow manual skill based crafting together with automatic crafting just by picking a recipe from the menu. Main difference between those two methods would be that crafting from the menu would be guaranteed to produce a standard version of selected item, while manual crafting would have an interval of possible results that include both better and worse outcomes (+-5% would be what i think is good amount) based on how crafter performed. System like this would allow crafters to distinguish themselves from others by their skill. Also it could provide more fun than just picking up a recipe from the menu, while still allowing those that are not interested in being the best to be a reasonably efficient part of the economy. This is the basic idea of my suggestion.

Now I will go more in depth to elaborate on supporting systems that would improve crafting with system like this even further.
Minigames should scale in difficulty based on level requirements and tier of an item. Legendary max level items should have the highest requirements on crafter skill to produce items that are actually better than what would be crafted by automatic crafting.
Together with manual crafting, leaderboards would be implemented, so crafters can show off how good they are in crafting and competitive players that want to have the best gear and be best would seek those that are on top of leaderboards. For leaderboards to really mean something each type of item ie. sword, staff, wand, bow etc. would have to have a minigame with their own special skill mechanic so there can be more than one best crafter. Leaderboards score for specific type of items swords for example would be an average of all (or all in some period of time) crafted swords of said crafter based on final result and difficulty of item crafting.
To complement leaderboards system like this and reduce frustration of not wanting to waste tons of materials for training especially on higher difficulties, practice crafting would exist. Practice crafting wouldn‘t provide exp for character, wouldn‘t craft an item, wouldn‘t affect leaderboards and would cost only a small fraction of the cost of a recipe, especially for legendary items and such it should cost only part of most common materials required. Practice crafting would also introduce another fairly easy to tune material sink into the economy.
Another possibility to leverage / incentivize players is to increase an amount of exp gained based on the result of manual crafting.

tl;dr implementation of dual crafting system with automatic and manual skill based crafting system with risk/effort vs rewards component, to facilitate fun, skill and potential for bragging

Shoelid

I’ve also been thinking about crafting a lot recently, so I’m glad a thread like this has popped up

I mostly disagree with you, though. Let me explain why in an essay of my own

First, I’m wholly unconvinced that MMO crafting would benefit from a minigame. Second, I think gating materials behind skill actually does make sense and is cool thematically. Third, I don’t think you put enough emphasis on customization. After I talk about those things I’ll explain my point of view on crafting in games.

I see lots of people suggest crafting minigames, and I’ve never seen a compelling reason as to why. Even a crafting system as basic as WoW’s will have people completely sucked into it, and WoW just has a “click craft and wait” type crafting system. You said it yourself: “I for some reason no lifed WoW cooking for basically no apparent reason and was having the most fun I’d ever had in the game… for all of a week”. I’d be really surprised if you felt that the crafting system was inadequate while you were progressing. My bet is that it was after you finished and lost interest that you looked back and felt it wasn’t enough.

On gating materials behind skill level, I don’t really understand why you don’t think it makes sense. Higher level herbs may be more delicate in the processes it takes to make them into a potion. Lacking knowledge or dexterity would ruin the material. For metals, it could be a bunch of things… Maybe the metal is only workable in a temperature range of a few degrees, so it requires ultra precise heating and reheating, something that’s only doable by master smiths. Maybe the metal is ultra hard so you have to use a lot of strength to shape it with your hammer, but an odd angle or a slightly-too-strong strike will shatter your hammer and deform the blade. Level gating the materials gives them a bit of character that wouldn’t be present otherwise, it just has to be delivered with a little bit of flavor.

Finally, you kinda gloss over customization, which I think undersells its importance. I think a lack of customization is what causes WoW crafting to fall off once you finish progression. You’re required to put in a bunch of time and effort collecting ingredients and planning your crafting to hit the next benchmark, but once you hit the top you have only a couple recipes to use with a couple ingredients that you’ll need. Sufficient customization would massively increase the amount of content at the end of your progression.

Personally, I think the actual act of crafting an item almost doesn’t matter to me. What I really enjoy is the process of planning the resources I’ll need and what I want to make. I enjoy searching for and gathering those resources. I enjoy feeling self-sufficient and self-made. I enjoy the certainty of finally collecting the last ore that I need, and knowing what I’ll receive as a result of that. These are things that only crafting can get me. If I wanted to utilize my skill and reaction times to receive a reward, I would go PvP or raiding. I don’t need, nor do I want crafting to do that for me. I want crafting to be a way that I set myself apart through time, planning, and creativity. My perfect crafting system would double down on those things, rather than spread itself thin by trying to please the action-oriented side of me at the same time. The ultimate crafter shouldn’t be somebody who can reliably 100% the quick time event or some rhythm game. The ultimate crafter should be somebody who’s a damn encyclopedia on the game’s stats and materials. He should know where to get everything in the game, and what it’s for. Even if somebody else managed to get their crafting skills up to par, he’s still got a laundry list of secrets and tricks to pull ahead.

Finally, about noodle carts. I agree, they’re the best. In the Q&A post I talked about something similar in a completely different game; Fargos Souls mod for Terraria. It does that exact thing of pulling together all your previously crafting armor in weapons for an area into a single item, called an Enchantment. One Enchantment typically requires seven items. Six enchantments will create a Force, combining the effects of all its enchantments. Nine Forces will create the Soul of Terraria, combining the effects of all nine Forces. The Soul of Terraria and three other Souls of similar crafting difficulty will get you the Soul of Eternity, the ultimate giga-item that combines over a thousand unique items. Just the thought of it makes me drool...

Skyra

Shoelid wrote: »

I see lots of people suggest crafting minigames, and I’ve never seen a compelling reason as to why.

For me dual system with automatic and manual crafting is desirable. And when it comes to compelling reasons for mini-games tying them with leader boards of crafters, and choice of risking failure to achieve excellence or going for safe mediocricity.

Shoelid wrote: »

I don’t need, nor do I want crafting to do that for me. I want crafting to be a way that I set myself apart through time, planning, and creativity. My perfect crafting system would double down on those things, rather than spread itself thin by trying to please the action-oriented side of me at the same time. The ultimate crafter shouldn’t be somebody who can reliably 100% the quick time event or some rhythm game. The ultimate crafter should be somebody who’s a damn encyclopedia on the game’s stats and materials. He should know where to get everything in the game, and what it’s for. Even if somebody else managed to get their crafting skills up to par, he’s still got a laundry list of secrets and tricks to pull ahead.

Mini-games do not need to be action based, quick use of knowlge is also a skill that can be used in mini-games.

neuroguy

By far the most fun and engaging crafting mini-game I've ever experienced was the fishing in stardew valley. That was super fun, I could tell I got better at it, and the legendary fish required some decent bit of skill and luck.

With regards to crafting I just think options, choices and customization is what needs to be the focus. I made a forum thread about it a while ago but I think for gathering, it would be great if you got to choose what your outcome would be. For example if you kill a bear, do you want to focus on gathering its meat (for cooking)? Its hide (for leatherworking)? It's claws and teeth (to grind down for potions or straight up for decoration)? And you could manually set your priority and gather what you think is best. You could then use some of these decoration pieces to customize crafted items. Crafted should have slots for customization (like how gear has gem/jewel slots in other games). These slots can be filled only during the crafting fo the item and can just change the look. For example you can use some feathers from a bird who's color you like, or you can add dye to the metal ingots etc). If you want to read that original thread: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/46589/gathering-from-corpses-and-crafting-decorations

For the actual crafting recipe, resources and blueprints, I like the SWG inspired ideas.

Shoelid

Skyra wrote: »

Shoelid wrote: »

I see lots of people suggest crafting minigames, and I’ve never seen a compelling reason as to why.

For me dual system with automatic and manual crafting is desirable. And when it comes to compelling reasons for mini-games tying them with leader boards of crafters, and choice of risking failure to achieve excellence or going for safe mediocricity.

Shoelid wrote: »

I don’t need, nor do I want crafting to do that for me. I want crafting to be a way that I set myself apart through time, planning, and creativity. My perfect crafting system would double down on those things, rather than spread itself thin by trying to please the action-oriented side of me at the same time. The ultimate crafter shouldn’t be somebody who can reliably 100% the quick time event or some rhythm game. The ultimate crafter should be somebody who’s a damn encyclopedia on the game’s stats and materials. He should know where to get everything in the game, and what it’s for. Even if somebody else managed to get their crafting skills up to par, he’s still got a laundry list of secrets and tricks to pull ahead.

Mini-games do not need to be action based, quick use of knowlge is also a skill that can be used in mini-games.

I've never seen nor heard of any crafters asking for a leaderboard, though my experience with MMOs is admittedly a bit small. To me, competitive crafting isn't a compelling reason to add a high skill ceiling minigame. Also, do you have any examples of minigames that would reward quick use of game knowledge? I still don't think I would like it though; The use of the word 'quick' is putting me off. I like my crafting systems to reward in depth thought and planning, not quick thinking speeds.

Out of curiosity, what crafting systems have you enjoyed in other games? How much time do you spend crafting in MMOs?

neuroguy wrote: »

By far the most fun and engaging crafting mini-game I've ever experienced was the fishing in stardew valley. That was super fun, I could tell I got better at it, and the legendary fish required some decent bit of skill and luck.

It's interesting that you bring up Stardew Valley fishing, because I was trying to think of minigames that would fit with Blacksmithing. The only thing I could think of was the fishing minigame, and the idea of trying to keep the metal in a certain heat range while it's being worked on. I've always hated Stardew Valley fishing though, so I wasn't happy with that idea.

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