Greetings, glorious adventurers! If you're joining in our Alpha One spot testing, please follow the steps here to see all the latest test info on our forums and Discord!

More Player Races?

What do you guys think about more player races?

I understand that in Ashes, a new race is a lot of work, from the model itself to the specific looks of nodes and even items that change depending on the race.

However, I do think its worth it, considering Ashes has a high-fantasy setting, they can work just fine.

I don't think it should be a priority and I do think that for launch, the 9 are enough. Maybe with expansions and such, adding more races (and the ability to change our race somehow)

For example, I am quite fond of the Leonin race, love the aesthetic. But there are other examples, just google "DnD races" and you will find a lot that could fit (and plenty that won't)

What does everyone else think?

Leonin-5-E.jpg
«1

Comments

  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Let them finish the 5 races (9 options) they have already before asking for even more effort to be put in. They aren't rushing with classes or races at this point. Only 4 Options were in the recent alpha with only Cleric, Mage and Tank too.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • SchmukySchmuky Member
    Neurath wrote: »
    Let them finish the 5 races (9 options) they have already before asking for even more effort to be put in. They aren't rushing with classes or races at this point. Only 4 Options were in the recent alpha with only Cleric, Mage and Tank too.

    Do read the post before you answer.
    Leonin-5-E.jpg
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I did read what you wrote, you haven't even edited the post so my comment still stands.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • SchmukySchmuky Member
    Schmuky wrote: »

    I don't think it should be a priority and I do think that for launch, the 9 are enough. Maybe with expansions and such, adding more races (and the ability to change our race somehow)

    ....
    Leonin-5-E.jpg
  • SchmukySchmuky Member
    I am talking post-launch, what do players wanna see added, you say "lets focus on alpha".

    No mate, my comment stands, "read the post before you answer"
    Leonin-5-E.jpg
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    When I have seen all 9 Racial Options, and, whether those racial options are adequate and different with distinction, I will consider whether we need even more races. So far, the races look too similar, too contrary to concept art and not detailed enough.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • SchmukySchmuky Member
    bashing head against stone wall repeatedly

    Hmmm... right... Again, i mean after launch. AFTER. They have said they are looking to implement a system similar to BDO for character creation in A-2 (I think) and most likely the models will look different by launch.

    This post is not about the current models in the game. This post is not about the models that might be available at launch. This post is not a demand for the devs in any way shape or form. Currently, this post isn't even for the devs.

    This post is for people to say what races they would like to see added at some point in the game. This post is that when the devs decide "right, everything is golden, lets add a race" they can check this post out and see what races are popular.

    bloody hell...
    Leonin-5-E.jpg
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 2021
    I just don't see the potential for a new race. It would be difficult for a new race to make a mark on the nodes. While IS could add new Gateways for the new race, I don't see the Lore Reason. Why hasn't the new race arrived with the rest of the races? Or does the new race live somewhere other than the under realm like the Tulnar? Would the new race be aliens from a far off place? Or perhaps the new race has whole continents and we must invade or support them? It is difficult for me to encompass what additions I would like when I'm not sure what the current options will look like. I really want to see Py-Rai in pixels. I am a huge fan of Elves so if I was pushed to ask for a new race it would be Dark Elves.

    Edit: Spelling check.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • SchmukySchmuky Member
    Lore-wise, new races can come from a lot of different places. It is up to the devs where they take the story, but for example:

    There are dragons in the game, so dragonborn could become a race. As time passes , half-breeds can appear, half-elves, tieflings, half-orcs, aasimar and other mixes.

    There will be underwater areas, so Tritons and the such can make an appearance.

    For the more exotic races (like Leonin, Loxodon, Firbolg, Tabaxi etc) I would expect that an expansion can introduce them, similar to how other MMOs have done it.

    High-fantasy has a lot of interesting races, and limiting the game to the 9 we have now kinda misses the point.
    Leonin-5-E.jpg
  • FerniFerni Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    It could be interesting in future expansions as long as adding this new races match the lore and makes sense.

    I like elves a lot and they are already in the game so I don't know what kind of races people would like to be able to play in AoC.

    Leonins remind me of Hrothgars from FFXIV or Charrs from Guild Wars 2. Maybe you could make a Tulnar who looks similar to a Leonin if like them?
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    We would need more details on the lore first.
    We know that there are other worlds, so... it’s possible new player races could visit Verra sometime after launch, sure.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I would prefer we just have a lot of customization within the races we do have.

    If I could make an Empyrean look like a Dark Elf for example that would be great.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    @Schmuky

    This
    Neurath wrote: »
    Let them finish the 5 races (9 options) they have already before asking for even more effort to be put in. They aren't rushing with classes or races at this point. Only 4 Options were in the recent alpha with only Cleric, Mage and Tank too.

    Seems to be basically an agreement with this
    Schmuky wrote: »
    I don't think it should be a priority and I do think that for launch, the 9 are enough. Maybe with expansions and such, adding more races (and the ability to change our race somehow)

    So why the hostility/frustration?

    The main difference between the two of you is that you think it is worth discussing before we have seem all options for all races, whereas Neurath thinks it is worth waiting to see the options, and may then be worth discussing.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    I would prefer we just have a lot of customization within the races we do have.

    If I could make an Empyrean look like a Dark Elf for example that would be great.

    I would personally prefer they add in dark elves eventually - to me, the notion of new races eventually being added is a given.

    It seems perfectly reasonable to me that The Ancients - who have the prime motivation of destroying creation - could have seen the portal created by the God of Creation, and decided to trick/manipulate/force some individuals to go through a different portal, leading to a plain of existence of that specific Ancients choosing.

    This could even be looked at as similar to some of the vaults in Fallout - where different plains were used to perform experiments on various races - the result of one of these potentially being dark elves.

    To me though, this isnt worth thinking about until the game has been out for at least a year - so some time in 2025 or 2026 we could discuss it further.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Noaani

    I would welcome the full racial treatment for Dark Elves. I just have a list of worries when it comes to new races.

    One worry is adding races later on could lead to people not wanting to restart due to the considerable time investment Ashes will be to level. Not as bad as Lineage 2, but compared to every modern MMO right now, leveling is expected to be an actual grind.

    I would hate for the introduction of new races to come with them entertaining the idea of level boosts or race changes. These things would cause me to go from supporting Ashes to denouncing it quickly.

    New races could make the balance of racial augments get out of hand. Personally, I like a slightly unbalanced meta, but I could see them leaning into attempting hyper-sterilization and making the game uninteresting. Oddly, I have seen games get worst about this as they add more complexity. Games that were okay with a little unbalance with a handful of races become obsessed with balance as they add more races.

    These are all just worries, though. Intrepid has shown no sign that these things will or could happen.

    So, I lean more to the direction of having more customization in the base races, but I would welcome proper new races if done responsibly.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    I would hate for the introduction of new races to come with them entertaining the idea of level boosts or race changes. These things would cause me to go from supporting Ashes to denouncing it quickly.
    I totally agree with this.

    The other thing to keep in mind though, is that all of those other games have equipment locked to the character. So, while leveling up a character may be easier, you can't then just swap your gear from one to another.

    I would wager that it wouldn't take much longer in Ashes to make a main replacement than it would in WoW - depending on where your main is, obviously.

  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Noaani wrote: »
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    I would hate for the introduction of new races to come with them entertaining the idea of level boosts or race changes. These things would cause me to go from supporting Ashes to denouncing it quickly.
    I totally agree with this.

    The other thing to keep in mind though, is that all of those other games have equipment locked to the character. So, while leveling up a character may be easier, you can't then just swap your gear from one to another.

    I would wager that it wouldn't take much longer in Ashes to make a main replacement than it would in WoW - depending on where your main is, obviously.

    Good point. I did have all sorts of goodies waiting for alts in Lineage 2.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • SchmukySchmuky Member
    I do get the level boost worry, but why is race change a bad thing?
    Leonin-5-E.jpg
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Schmuky wrote: »
    I do get the level boost worry, but why is race change a bad thing?

    In a game like Ashes, reputation is key.

    There are several aspects of your character that absolutely should not be able to be changed - these include name, gender and race. Being able to change these leads to players being able to more easily change their in game identity, wiping any reputation they have built.

    Additionally, races in Ashes have bonuses. If there is a means to change races (which would have to be paid), that would be looked at by many as being a means to pay to get better racial abilities - ie, pay-to-win.
  • SchmukySchmuky Member
    Noaani wrote: »
    Schmuky wrote: »
    I do get the level boost worry, but why is race change a bad thing?

    In a game like Ashes, reputation is key.

    There are several aspects of your character that absolutely should not be able to be changed - these include name, gender and race. Being able to change these leads to players being able to more easily change their in game identity, wiping any reputation they have built.

    Additionally, races in Ashes have bonuses. If there is a means to change races (which would have to be paid), that would be looked at by many as being a means to pay to get better racial abilities - ie, pay-to-win.

    I feel that a race change isn't that detrimental to the reputation as tbh we know players by name rather than race.

    And if the race they add is balanced compared to all the others, swapping dosen't mean you get better bonuses, just different ones.

    What i get at is, the problem would be the fact that a new race is not balanced rather than players swapping races, as new characters can be made with that race.

    For me anyway, the race is a cosmetic. Any bonus the race gives quickly gets overshadowed by the gear and level.

    If they add a race I really like the aesthetic of, I would have to make another character to be able to play that race which means that because I started playing early, I was limited in what i could play and am "punished" for it.

    This isn't a problem for people for which the favorite race is elf for example, but if down the line they add the Leonin race with no way to change race, i would be pissed
    Leonin-5-E.jpg
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Schmuky

    If at any point there is a racial augment that is better than another races, and people pay to switch to that race for the augment. The game becomes pay to win.

    From the Kickstarter:
    In keeping with our theme of Consequence, and unlike other games, race won’t just be a matter of look, with relatively inconsequential abilities tacked on. Instead they integrate deeply into our class system, augmenting and changing the basic chassis provided by our eight core archetypes. Our goal here is to create a system where an elven fighter feels different, but serves the same role as a dwarven fighter.

    Races may be cosmetic is some games, but they are not cosmetic in every game. They are not planned to be cosmetic in Ashes:
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • SchmukySchmuky Member
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    @Schmuky

    If at any point there is a racial augment that is better than another races, and people pay to switch to that race for the augment. The game becomes pay to win.

    From the Kickstarter:
    In keeping with our theme of Consequence, and unlike other games, race won’t just be a matter of look, with relatively inconsequential abilities tacked on. Instead they integrate deeply into our class system, augmenting and changing the basic chassis provided by our eight core archetypes. Our goal here is to create a system where an elven fighter feels different, but serves the same role as a dwarven fighter.

    Races may be cosmetic is some games, but they are not cosmetic in every game. They are not planned to be cosmetic in Ashes:

    I get what you mean, races will have their unique traits. But as long as they are balanced, it dosen't matter, right? Currently, would you say elves are better than dwarfs for example?

    Any new race added to the game would need to be balanced to the others and if they aren't, then that race becomes OP and the problem isn't race change, but rather the race itself. If the race is balanced, what dose it matter if we can change it?
    Leonin-5-E.jpg
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Schmuky wrote: »
    I get what you mean, races will have their unique traits. But as long as they are balanced, it dosen't matter, right? Currently, would you say elves are better than dwarfs for example?

    Any new race added to the game would need to be balanced to the others and if they aren't, then that race becomes OP and the problem isn't race change, but rather the race itself. If the race is balanced, what dose it matter if we can change it?

    For the longest time there was no high-end alliance raiding scene in WOW because Orcs racial was so good. In order to be taken seriously as a raider you would have to play horde at a minimum. I don't know that it is possible to have interesting racials and total balance. Something always comes out a head.

    Recently in Shadowlands Blizzard told us not to worry about covenants. Everything is going to be so well-balanced that you will just get to choose the covenant you like... Fast-forward to week two of the x-pack and the meta was already so set in stone that both a covenant and a legendary was "mandatory" per spec.
    If Blizzard sold a covenant change, they would have made bank.

    I am not saying that Ashes will for sure be as bad as WOW. I am just saying that the chances are some racial augments will come out ahead. When you can pay to switch a bad race for a good race. The game becomes pay to win. Odds are Intrepid will end up in a never-ending game of "nurf this, buff that" when it comes to racial augments. Combined with a race change that is a never-ending stream of reliable microtransactions.

    I just don't want that to be the fate of the game.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • IMO.
    Yes, additional races would be cool and I don't want to be negative towards good creative ideas....
    ..... but it is a distraction from getting the core game released simply because it is outside the current scope of work.

    There is soooo much content that isn't resolved for the core game and, as I see it, that content is a more worthwhile use of the communities discussion time because it can potentially assist the developers, resulting in a better game.
    This is where my focus will be.

    To not lose good ideas, maybe we need a section labelled "2025" for content ideas outside the current scope of work and beyond the release date?
    Forum_Signature.png
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    I would hate for the introduction of new races to come with them entertaining the idea of level boosts or race changes. These things would cause me to go from supporting Ashes to denouncing it quickly.

    New races could make the balance of racial augments get out of hand. Personally, I like a slightly unbalanced meta, but I could see them leaning into attempting hyper-sterilization and making the game uninteresting. Oddly, I have seen games get worst about this as they add more complexity. Games that were okay with a little unbalance with a handful of races become obsessed with balance as they add more races.
    I think it's unlikely that the devs will allow for race changes because of the way Node NPCs are tied to the participation of the highest racial population. We should not be able to force the change of racial type for a node simply by having a bunch of people change race while keeping their current levels.
  • SchmukySchmuky Member
    Vhaeyne wrote: »

    Recently in Shadowlands Blizzard told us not to worry about covenants. Everything is going to be so well-balanced that you will just get to choose the covenant you like... Fast-forward to week two of the x-pack and the meta was already so set in stone that both a covenant and a legendary was "mandatory" per spec.
    If Blizzard sold a covenant change, they would have made bank.

    I am not saying that Ashes will for sure be as bad as WOW. I am just saying that the chances are some racial augments will come out ahead. When you can pay to switch a bad race for a good race. The game becomes pay to win. Odds are Intrepid will end up in a never-ending game of "nurf this, buff that" when it comes to racial augments. Combined with a race change that is a never-ending stream of reliable microtransactions.

    Haven't played WoW so i don't know, but if it that bad, what is stopping players from making a new character?
    I do get your point, some races usually take the lead, but I do think it matters how much of a difference there is.
    I don't think that the bonus have been announced, but the example was "a dwarf fighter will be different than an elf fighter but both will be good".
    What i understand from this is something like elfs might have a bit higher attack speed for example and dwarfs maybe a bit higher damage per hit, and in the end the DPS is the same.
    Sure, they are different, but when the math is done it didn't matter if you are dwarf or elf. That sort of balance lets each race feel and play unique and at the same time be balanced. And i hope this type of system gets put in the game
    McMackMuck wrote: »
    IMO.
    Yes, additional races would be cool and I don't want to be negative towards good creative ideas....
    ..... but it is a distraction from getting the core game released simply because it is outside the current scope of work.

    There is soooo much content that isn't resolved for the core game and, as I see it, that content is a more worthwhile use of the communities discussion time because it can potentially assist the developers, resulting in a better game.
    This is where my focus will be.

    To not lose good ideas, maybe we need a section labelled "2025" for content ideas outside the current scope of work and beyond the release date?

    This started as a more of "what other races would you like to see longterm?" but yea, a 2025 section might work better:))
    Dygz wrote: »
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    I would hate for the introduction of new races to come with them entertaining the idea of level boosts or race changes. These things would cause me to go from supporting Ashes to denouncing it quickly.

    New races could make the balance of racial augments get out of hand. Personally, I like a slightly unbalanced meta, but I could see them leaning into attempting hyper-sterilization and making the game uninteresting. Oddly, I have seen games get worst about this as they add more complexity. Games that were okay with a little unbalance with a handful of races become obsessed with balance as they add more races.
    I think it's unlikely that the devs will allow for race changes because of the way Node NPCs are tied to the participation of the highest racial population. We should not be able to force the change of racial type for a node simply by having a bunch of people change race while keeping their current levels.

    Maybe i understood this wrong, but by my understanding, the aesthetic of the Node will change based on what race put most exp into the node between level-ups. But it was an aesthetic function. Each race can go and be part of any node, and take quests the same way.

    Being forced to go to dwarf nodes if you are a dwarf kinda ruins the whole nodes idea
    Leonin-5-E.jpg
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Schmuky wrote: »
    Maybe i understood this wrong, but by my understanding, the aesthetic of the Node will change based on what race put most exp into the node between level-ups. But it was an aesthetic function. Each race can go and be part of any node, and take quests the same way.

    Being forced to go to dwarf nodes if you are a dwarf kinda ruins the whole nodes idea
    Your understanding is fairly spot on.

    The poster you replied to is confusing what he wants racial node influence to be with what we have been told it will be.

    There will be a few quest givers that offer a specific version of a quest to players of the correct race, but Steven has specifically said players will not miss out on content (things to kill, items, builds, etc) if there are no nodes of their own race.

    So, maybe you'll save a few minutes on a quest if your race happens to be the majority influence on your node - but other than that it is cosmetic.
  • GimlogGimlog Member
    Well guys go ask directly to Steven in the next Dev update , if he has in his mind a way to introduce new race later on or not.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Schmuky wrote: »
    Haven't played WoW so i don't know, but if it that bad, what is stopping players from making a new character?
    I do get your point, some races usually take the lead, but I do think it matters how much of a difference there is.
    I don't think that the bonus have been announced, but the example was "a dwarf fighter will be different than an elf fighter but both will be good".
    What i understand from this is something like elfs might have a bit higher attack speed for example and dwarfs maybe a bit higher damage per hit, and in the end the DPS is the same.
    Sure, they are different, but when the math is done it didn't matter if you are dwarf or elf. That sort of balance lets each race feel and play unique and at the same time be balanced. And i hope this type of system gets put in the game

    Making a new character is fine because it is still a time and energy investment to level up a new character. You still have to establish name recognition of the new character among your peers. There are many possible reasons why you would not want to allow race changes. Here you can see the DEVs not wanting to open the can of worms as part of a short Q&A on the topic:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-fU0DJL7wY&t=4544s

    There is just so much to consider with a game this complex that they don't seem to want to touch race changes, and I think that is the right move. Jeff brought up a possible system where you could look like one race and have the states of another. If that was something you could earn in game over time I would be all for that. They don't seem to want to do that, though.

    There is always this quote too:
    Your primary archetype selection and your race selection should be - because they have gameplay influences - should be final.[66] – Steven Sharif

    In the example you gave the dwarf and elf doing the same damage is both the goal and the dream, but it is not so easily obtained or maintained. I always hope they can get close, but a meta in a complex MMORPG is inevitable. Games like FFXIV try to avoid metas by taking character builds out of the game. To me that is a awful way to address the issue and still fails to solve the issue of some jobs being overpowered.

    I don't think there will be an answer that satisfies everyone on this, but to me, not allowing race changes seems to prevent a lot of potential abuse.

    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • MerekMerek Member
    If one of the current races doesn't appeal to you, wait until the Tulnar are revealed and if that still isn't enough, maybe AoC isn't for you?
Sign In or Register to comment.