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Break the Gank Box -- Evil Suggestions Needed

I was getting hyped about this game and seriously considering dropping the cash for a beta key, but now I am reconsidering ... and open world PvP is the reason.
Steven has said that he doesn't intend for Ashes to be a gank box and that he believes the corruption system will deter that.
As a pacifist MMORPG player, I timidly disagree.
But instead of whining into my herbal tea, I would like to ask the PvPers to offer up their evil plans.
How will you get around the corruption system to gank as many innocent noobs as possible?
Suicide to clear the corruption? Alts just for ganking? Is there a way to cash shop it away?
My intention is to provide insight into how the chaotic evil players will twist the corruption system to their own nefarious ends so that maybe the devs can tweak the system before release to make it more enjoyable for peaceful players.

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Comments

  • edited May 2021
    First to all, it is important for your to comprehend that the Corruption system is not something entirely new and that there is an extremely similar system(in which the corruption system is based on) that was already put under test for years(Lineage 2 Karma system) in one of the most fierce Open world pvp games and even with some ways to play around it(mainly having friends protecting you) it was still an insane risk that would keep PKers at bay.
    The Corruption system is even more punitive than Lineage 2 karma system as it even "debuffs" the corrupted players stats and has an even greater exp penalty.

    As for your questions:
    Q: How will you get around the corruption system to gank as many innocent noobs as possible?
    A: I will probably only pk possible high value gatherers/miners individuals and only if i consider the area isolated enough for an easy escape or if i have my gang to back me up.
    There is no perfect way to "play around" corruption.

    Q: Suicide to clear the corruption?
    A:That a good way to have your exp rekt.

    Q: Alts just for ganking?
    A: A possibility, but not really viable long term.

    Q: Is there a way to cash shop it away?
    A:Nope.
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    There is no perfect way to "play around" corruption.
    This one sentence sums up my opinion quite well.

    If you play Ashes, you absolutely will get attacked by other players at a times. That is a given.

    However, there absolutely are things you can do to mitigate it. If you are harvesting by yourself, do so in an area that doesn't have an easy escape route for your attacker. Keep within line of sight of people that are not likely to attack you (other people harvesting - assuming there is plenty of material to harvest). Don't take shortcuts through the woods, etc.

    Honestly, I can see more ways of baiting people in to gaining more corruption than they wanted than I can see ways to try and get around it. This means corruption is your weapon to use on them, if you learn how to wield it well.
  • ThexBlackxKnightThexBlackxKnight Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    This is a community driven game , joining a guild and being a citizen of a node is going to give you a lot of allies to hang around with and there is going to be a lot stuff to do that is not combat focused. You could spend all your time in the city or on a freehold and not worry to much about pvp for the most part or travel around in groups for strength in numbers. Also other players will have a invested interest in keeping players like you safe since you will be a citizen of a node they are protecting.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited May 2021
    L2 used the same corruption system. Everything steven has said so far confirms it for me.

    Here is what I used to do when I wanted to PK somebody:

    1) I would never engage more than 3 people alone. If my target was with more than 2 other people I would bring friends to PK on the nearby players if they attacked me.
    2) As soon as I killed my target I would go to kill mobs to burn my corruption status.
    3) I would never go beyond 3 PKs at all times. Any time I had 3 PKs total, I would do a repentance quest to lower my PK counts to 0.

    That way I could kill anybody I liked without risking losing gear and items.

    The corruption system isnt here to protect carebears.
    It is here to prevent killing sprees.
    It is here to protect the open world pvp setting from constant, mindless player v player situations found in mmos like eso (cyrodiil).
    It is here to protect the other features of mmorpgs, character development and progression, crafting and gathering, market trade and world exploration.

    It is not here to make you feel safe. There are single player rpgs for that.
  • EloElo Member
    I kind of feel the same as the OP. I love exploring the wilderness far from civilization. Under the current system, I'm not sure I'm going to like it.

    Steven has said, "If you go on a murder spree and you have 10 pks under your belt then you might start feeling a significant dampening to your skill effects against other players." And also, "If you're out there and you killed you know 20 players... you will not be able to perform in PVP any longer." To me, that seems like too small of a penalty to be a sufficient deterrent. I think I would be ok with the system if the penalty was much harsher, like -40% stats/hp for your first kill. Then the danger is still there, but red would essentially need to run after a murder.

    I'm not trying to ruin anyone's PVP game, I am just being honest, and will be content to sit out if I can't feel the inspiration of exploring. Perhaps rather than gradually tweaking the stat damp during playtesting, they should first bounce it around to see how it feels. Like one day it's -10% and the next day it's -40%. See how it feels and then later fine tune it.
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Don't forget that there is a Bounty Hunter Profession which players can specialize in. Once you progress in it, the Bounty Hunter will have a map to show where corrupted players are. I expect that they will be motivated by quests and profession progression to kill reds. Most of all, corrupted players will have the best drops in the game. If a BH pegs a few decently equipped reds, they will be on the way to being rich.

    Might not hurt to have some Bounty Hunter friends and party with them to help them level up, eh?
  • ThexBlackxKnightThexBlackxKnight Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Elo wrote: »
    I'm not trying to ruin anyone's PVP game, I am just being honest, and will be content to sit out if I can't feel the inspiration of exploring. Perhaps rather than gradually tweaking the stat damp during playtesting, they should first bounce it around to see how it feels. Like one day it's -10% and the next day it's -40%. See how it feels and then later fine tune it.

    This game world is going to be vast and if you pick a class that can stealth you can pretty much explore and not have to worry to much about other players while traveling around. I explored the Alpha One map and its really easy to get away from other players and wander around alone.

  • VoidwalkersVoidwalkers Member
    edited May 2021
    Q: How will you get around the corruption system to gank as many innocent noobs as possible?

    That's exactly what the corruption system is designed to deter - ppl going on a killing spree of innocent noobs. I believe it would be a much wiser choice to actually pick your targets in Ashes -
    Some noobs innocently running around in the starting area? Nah.
    Some noobs innocently running around with a shit load of valuable gatherables on him? KILL.
    Someone annoying you so much that you'd rather take the risk & time to work off some corruption? KILL.

    Mindlessly murdering innocent noobs will just rack up so much corruption that you'll quickly get killed by innocent noobs instead. No fun in that.

    Back in Eve Online ppl would cargo-scan / ship-scan potential targets (transport ships & expensive-looking PvE battleships) and decide whether a gank is worth the cost (losing your ganking ship to npc guards 100% of the time). Not sure if Ashes will have such "inventory / backpack scanners" though.

    Q: get around the corruption

    In the early days MMO (e.g. Ragnarok Online) there's the option to "train a crowd of mobs onto other players" and let the mobs do the work for you, but in modern MMOs (with aggro & leash system) I don't think this is possible anymore. Not sure what the case will be in Ashes.
    And back in vanilla WoW, warlocks could summon infernals & doomguards and then NOT enslave them & let them run free in starting areas to prey on innocent noobs. Not sure if something similar would be possible in Ashes.
  • TraxTrax Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Anti-PK player here: cops and robbers was my favorite game growing up, cowboys and Indians a close second - if you get ganked sound the alarm, many of us will come running. Very excited about the bounty Hunter system. A game needs bad guys, don’t go to hard on me.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    a, I would like to ask the PvPers to offer up their evil plans.

    It's very simple. If I want to kill you and I can afford the risk to do so. I will kill you and accept being red as my "reward" for doing so.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • ZeshioZeshio Member
    I think it depends on how far rogue skills go as far as hiding/invisibility. I can easily see hitting solo targets, taking their stuff, and then hiding either by rogue skill or by potions/scrolls. I've played plenty of cat and mouse gaming in the past, so this seems the most appropriate. Sneak far enough to get away, then run to a location to dump goods.

    If it gets bit spicy as far as being actively targeted without escape, swapping to another character/alt for a couple of hours until people stop searching the main character. Then probably identify low population areas where it's easy to grind out experience and reduce corruption. Just like @JamesSunderland mentioned, going for a single high value target and then working off that corruption would be the smartest. Kill, then clean corruption. Rinse, repeat. Avoids stacking corruption, since we don't know how hard it'll be to get rid of.

    If you have buddies around while you're being hunted, you could have them provide false locations in chat, saying they spotted you, etc. Having friends in a group, say three or four, where only one has corruption at a time, allows them to provide protection against any solo or duo bounty hunter.
  • RageconRagecon Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Bounty hunters... and there will be guilds who specialize in doing this. The idea is once you go red you are now marked on map for them until you can get rid of it. Saw someone say they would just log onto another character but the moment you log back on there will be someone who notices and will start hunting you. Pvp is part of the fun of online games, if you are so against it I would say you are better off just playing single player games at that point.
  • roostroost Member
    Elo wrote: »
    I kind of feel the same as the OP. I love exploring the wilderness far from civilization. Under the current system, I'm not sure I'm going to like it.

    Steven has said, "If you go on a murder spree and you have 10 pks under your belt then you might start feeling a significant dampening to your skill effects against other players." And also, "If you're out there and you killed you know 20 players... you will not be able to perform in PVP any longer." To me, that seems like too small of a penalty to be a sufficient deterrent. I think I would be ok with the system if the penalty was much harsher, like -40% stats/hp for your first kill. Then the danger is still there, but red would essentially need to run after a murder.

    I'm not trying to ruin anyone's PVP game, I am just being honest, and will be content to sit out if I can't feel the inspiration of exploring. Perhaps rather than gradually tweaking the stat damp during playtesting, they should first bounce it around to see how it feels. Like one day it's -10% and the next day it's -40%. See how it feels and then later fine tune it.

    Sounds like MMOs aren't for you then
  • Elo wrote: »
    I kind of feel the same as the OP. I love exploring the wilderness far from civilization. Under the current system, I'm not sure I'm going to like it.

    Steven has said, "If you go on a murder spree and you have 10 pks under your belt then you might start feeling a significant dampening to your skill effects against other players." And also, "If you're out there and you killed you know 20 players... you will not be able to perform in PVP any longer." To me, that seems like too small of a penalty to be a sufficient deterrent. I think I would be ok with the system if the penalty was much harsher, like -40% stats/hp for your first kill. Then the danger is still there, but red would essentially need to run after a murder.

    I'm not trying to ruin anyone's PVP game, I am just being honest, and will be content to sit out if I can't feel the inspiration of exploring. Perhaps rather than gradually tweaking the stat damp during playtesting, they should first bounce it around to see how it feels. Like one day it's -10% and the next day it's -40%. See how it feels and then later fine tune it.


    All I can say to you and the OP is read what any Lineage 2 players have posted in this thread. In Lineage 2 the karma system worked great and it had less penalties than AoC. While the stat debuff for having too many Pks under your belt is a deterrent, it is not the main deterrent that will shape people's choices, the loss of gear on death will be the biggest penalty.

    Going red in Lineage 2 was a huge deal... and I mean huge. I watched the biggest/best PvPer on our server go red, and panic like an ant under a magnifying glass... If the crafting system is as extensive as some people say it might be, dropping gear in this game will not be a fun endeavor just because someone wanted to kill some rando out in the forest who was picking flowers. Those moments will mostly be saved for someone who they truly have ill will for.

    Do not get me wrong, random PKing will happen, and I would be willing to bet it will happen daily. I just do not think it will be as bad as you think it will be. So basically... count on it happening, just do not think it will be a daily thing you deal with, unless you piss someone off and they get a hardon for you.

    The players who do decide they just want to PK for fun, will mostly do this on alts and at lower levels to keep the replacement gear at the cheapest possible levels. In Lineage 2, dark elf dagger user was everyone's PK choice because you did not need armor, just a dagger and the balls to try and backstab everyone you ran across, then run away.

  • GimlogGimlog Member
    To me AoC is about who has the sturdiest balls.

    As a green player , I'll will make me as knowledgeable as I can to judge my opponent and know if I can take him out or not and know if this guy has the balls to murder me while I'll ignore him.
    Being able to judge if it's worth fighting back or not.

    As a player going on a killing spree , I will make sure to know that my victim is going to die when I chose to kill him , and this moment will be when he fight back and no others moment. I will pissed him of and harass him until he make the wrong move.
    This way at most I risk a purple death penalty.

  • ThexBlackxKnightThexBlackxKnight Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Really this kind of pvp system has not been tested on a modern mmorpg audience , going to be interesting to see how it plays out.
  • EloElo Member
    roost wrote: »
    Elo wrote: »
    I kind of feel the same as the OP. I love exploring the wilderness far from civilization. Under the current system, I'm not sure I'm going to like it.

    Steven has said, "If you go on a murder spree and you have 10 pks under your belt then you might start feeling a significant dampening to your skill effects against other players." And also, "If you're out there and you killed you know 20 players... you will not be able to perform in PVP any longer." To me, that seems like too small of a penalty to be a sufficient deterrent. I think I would be ok with the system if the penalty was much harsher, like -40% stats/hp for your first kill. Then the danger is still there, but red would essentially need to run after a murder.

    I'm not trying to ruin anyone's PVP game, I am just being honest, and will be content to sit out if I can't feel the inspiration of exploring. Perhaps rather than gradually tweaking the stat damp during playtesting, they should first bounce it around to see how it feels. Like one day it's -10% and the next day it's -40%. See how it feels and then later fine tune it.

    Sounds like MMOs aren't for you then

    Oh
  • Elo wrote: »
    roost wrote: »
    Elo wrote: »
    I kind of feel the same as the OP. I love exploring the wilderness far from civilization. Under the current system, I'm not sure I'm going to like it.

    Steven has said, "If you go on a murder spree and you have 10 pks under your belt then you might start feeling a significant dampening to your skill effects against other players." And also, "If you're out there and you killed you know 20 players... you will not be able to perform in PVP any longer." To me, that seems like too small of a penalty to be a sufficient deterrent. I think I would be ok with the system if the penalty was much harsher, like -40% stats/hp for your first kill. Then the danger is still there, but red would essentially need to run after a murder.

    I'm not trying to ruin anyone's PVP game, I am just being honest, and will be content to sit out if I can't feel the inspiration of exploring. Perhaps rather than gradually tweaking the stat damp during playtesting, they should first bounce it around to see how it feels. Like one day it's -10% and the next day it's -40%. See how it feels and then later fine tune it.

    Sounds like MMOs aren't for you then

    Oh

    Don't worry, there will be ways for you to survive out in the open. If you are smart, you can survive.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    There are players wanting Corruption to be much harsher.
    There are players wanting Corruption to be much weaker.
    We just have to play to know if the balance feels good enough for us to play.
    If the balance works as designed, most people will be willing to play.
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Another scenario:

    If there is someone who likes to PK around, go with some friends go hunt near him. Have your friends target him while you tell him to leave your hunting area, or start an argument somehow. Get him mad, threaten him, get him to start a fight...but don't be wearing armor and don't fight back so he kills you and goes red. At once all your friend kill him! He drops much of what he took from you and much of his gear as well as retains some penalty even after this one death.

    What you have done is basically ambushed a red and gotten his gear, done to him what he was going to try to do to you.

    Not only does the game structure work against reds, so does their very personality.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 2021
    You won't drop much gear - if any - simply for one kill of a green.
    It's also a portion drop of resources - we can't say how much of what was taken from you, you would be able to recoup. Seems likely you could regain much of what was taken from you - or the equivalent. Seems like the drops from a red would be more than the drops from a green.
  • Exploring the wilderness should have an element of danger to it.
    In WoW I play with PVP enabled (Warmode on) and while this offers a slight increase to rewards from world quests and such.... there is no actual rewards for engaging in PVP combat with other players. I really like that I can get rewards from WPVP in ashes even if it's mostly just going to be gatherable items and such (as I understand it).

    I think something a lot of players are ignoring is that it works as a great way to protect your farm areas from rats. If you play MMORPGs then you know how annoying it is when someone starts fishing in your pool or mining in your cave.... You can kill them and defend your cave with a PVP system (or TAKE their cave from them!)

    But after that... you're discouraged from killing them over and over with the corruption system.
    So I think what most PVE focused players are worried about is being bumped off repeatedly, but I think this system largely discourages that.

    While I think it would be fun to get an assassins guild type organization together and just bump off passers by and loot them, I'm not sure it would really be all that viable in the end.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    And here we go again
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • roostroost Member
    edited May 2021
    Elo wrote: »

    Oh

    I mean, it sounds harsh, but it really doesn't sound like you enjoy any of the things that make an MMO an MMO. There are plenty of fantastic games with excellent exploration that's not only encouraged, but a core part of the game. Breath of the Wild comes to mind. If you like to just hang out in the wilderness with zero player interaction, (not even referring to PvP, i mean trading, raiding, dungeons, socializing in the city even), then it sounds like you want to play a single player game. That method of play is valid, but it's completely tertiary to the core components of the game. Nodes, crafting, grouped PvE, player interaction, etc. You'd be better off playing a game that has a primary focus on rewarding and engaging exploration, rather than one that doesn't.
  • GubiakGubiak Member
    Personally I don't see a lot of value in ganking low level non-combatants unless for a misguided sense of satisfaction. If anything then prioritizing high value targets like long haul gatherers or someone who just killed a highly valued mob with loot would be the way.

    The way corruption system is shaping up though I am more attracted to bounty-hunting system that allows you to kill corrupted players. You get reward, grab the stuff their drop (potentially their gear) and you keep the trash off the streets while you are being praised for PvP instead condemned. Sounds like a straight up better deal.
  • Simple. <control> + <alt> + <delete>. If PC.

    Or uninstall.

    You did ask for evil.
  • fabulafabula Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I would like to argue that if being out alone gathering some random resource requires you to either have people protecting you or to be vigilant against others then the game is already a gank box.

    People ganking others because its profitable is something you never want to deal with.
    The only people you should have in mind when designing your anti-pk system is those that will do it even when its not worth it.

    You can never fully prevent it but depending on the penalties you can dictate how common it is. It cannot be common because this is the definition of a gank box, it has to be a rare thing. That means that your corruption system works.

    This means that the default feel of the game cannot be one of apprehension when running into another player. When your anti-pk system is working that means that the default feel of the game is one where you are not worried about getting killed by others.

    Your game cannot be in a state where is has a "working anti-pk system" and at the same time your players have to huddle together not to be pked.
  • BiccusBiccus Member
    @fabula i would argue subscribing to an open world PvP game and expecting no PvP while out in the world is, putting it nicely.. optimistic
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @fabula

    You made up a definition of "gank box" to allow you to run around solo with a fat stack of goods like its no big deal. Running around solo in a lawless place harvesting a bunch of goods should be very risky. You can't expect to be able to mine gold/farm mobs for hours alone without someone noticing and taking advantage of the opportunity you are presenting them with.

    This happens in the real world too. Plenty of times in the gold rush where people would get ganked on the way back to town with a pouch of gold.

    What makes it not a gank box is that people actually have to consider the risks in attacking you. Which is the case under our current corruption system.

    Remember Lineage 2 was not a gank box and its "Corruption" penalties were less harsh.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • fabulafabula Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 2021
    @Biccus
    I never stated that I just wanted pve and be a "carebear". I played UO, the poster child of pking run amok, so I've dealt with worse than whateve AoC ultimately ends up being. I know what sort of game AoC will be because I know what sort of game it cannot be.

    @Vhaeyne
    I also played L2 so I am familiar with the system there but I disagree that the penalties were less harsh. In L2, You could lose weeks of grinding 12+hrs per day with just a few pk deaths. Worst of all you could drop gear and that was the real penalty. Gear was super expensive to make so losing it was a huge blow, worse than the xp lost.

    I don't know how long it will take to level up in AoC but from what I've heard its about 45 days, this is rather vague because it could be any number of hours in that day. 24 hrs per day would put it in the range of old EQ, 4hrs per day would be like WoW classic. Lets assume 8hrs per day, so about 15 days played to reach max level. Obviously there's no way for the xp penalties to be harsher than L2, plus I REALLY doubt gear will be as hard to get as it was in L2, because this would undermine the whole crafting system.

    This leads to the reason why I say that the feel of the game cannot be one where you are constantly worried of getting ganked. Its because AoC will have game systems that build upon each other. A caravan full of materials has to be better than a mule full of materials which has to be better than a player. The lone player with a mule full of goods has to be the worst way to transport those materials because otherwise the caravan system would be useless. At the same time it has to be safest because the caravan creates a pvp zone with no penalties at all so why wouldn't you attack it?

    The player has to choose between safe but slow or fast but risky when they want to transport those materials.
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