What if instanced dungeons were designed to be hardcore?

I have seen that something like 80% of the ashes dungeons will be open world while 20% will be instanced. I was wondering what if the 20% instanced dungeons were designed and intended to be a hardcore experience? What I mean by that is the dungeons would reset to the beginning if everyone zones out or there is a party wipe. Additionally, I would personally like to see any gear and xp you get in the dungeon removed if you party wipe. Each dungeon could include a warning of modifiers that were built into the dungeon at the entrance. one example, maybe there is a lock carved on the wall to show that the dungeon locks when you enter it so you can not leave without dieing and/or if you lose a party member you can not get a new party member and have them zone in you get to decide if you can keep going with 4 people or give up. One way to offset this would be to include strategically placed resurrection stones/obelisks good for one resurrection so if your healer dies to a trap he should have seen coming you can revive him without having to restart as long as you have gotten to one of these stones.

Regardless I think it would add a level of fun if getting your loot was only half the battle you then needed to get out alive to keep what you got. Some additional modifiers that could be used I have included below

Dungeon has a higher than normal number of minion mobs (e.i. bring aoe if you can)
Dungeon bosses hit harder than normal.
Dungeon contains traps
Dungeon is unstable and will collapse 5 minutes after the last boss is slain.

I am not saying these should change regularly or anything like that but it would be a cool if a dev could take the normal dungeon formula and say I really want a bunch more of X and then add it while also giving people a heads up at the entrance what they are in for when you discover the dungeon. Imagine coming across a new dungeon with a new symbol that is not in the wiki yet and finding out the v shape with a water drop off it is a vampire fang and all the mobs heal for part of the damage they do so focus fire is extra important.

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ThexBlackxKnight

Dygz wrote: »

Being killed a lot is subjective and circumstantial.
I'm not aware of Archeage and WoW having Corruption.

Corruption wont prevent you from being killed ten times by a big group of players each taking a turn to do so. The pvp encounters will still be very frequent in game. Remember Steven had actually tell people in the Alpha to stop ganking people.

Dygz

Apparently, you don't know how Corruption and respawns work in Ashes.
Corruption is in an Alpha state - just like everything else is.
Anyway, this is not the thread to derail with your delusions.
You are right. The Earth is flat.

ThexBlackxKnight

Since the non-instance content will be hotly contested , a little bit more instance content might be find to give players a break from having to compete.

Inixia

For a lot of the concern of toxicity on the forums on certain topics, I feel like there's a blind spot to how much will likely exist by design.

but that doesn't mean it won't still be a fun or beneficial thing to have these competitive elements overall. Good moments will definitely be coming alongside frustrating ones though. Ganks, home node takeovers, pressure to join powerful guilds, kill swipes, etc...

Jamation

I think the idea could be cool, but personally not a fan of the "locking people in" thing. It's always sucks a little when you have to leave a group in the middle of a raid or something, especially when you know the people and truly want to help them. So even if it was intended to be a little more hardcore I wouldn't want to tempt people into forgoing IRL commitments or running late because the dungeon took a little longer than they expected and they couldn't get someone to replace me (which shouldn't be hard since I'm not the best haha)

Personally wondering where the instanced dungeons will even fit in with the changing world. Figure it'll probably be something story related?

So an alternative to this could be a FFXIV Heaven-on-High/Palace of the Dead type deal where it's almost it's own little world. Depending on where the instanced dungeons are/what they're goal is, it could be something more lore based, that way it doesn't feel like a forced story, but still includes a lot of cool info and stuff. Perhaps even a "vision" or something that goes further into the APOC stuff during the corruption period with all the in-fighting.

ThexBlackxKnight

Inixia wrote: »

but that doesn't mean it won't still be a fun or beneficial thing to have these competitive elements overall. Good moments will definitely be coming alongside frustrating ones though. Ganks, home node takeovers, pressure to join powerful guilds, kill swipes, etc...

Well if you like pvp these things will be a lot fun for sure.

ThexBlackxKnight

Jamation wrote: »

Personally wondering where the instanced dungeons will even fit in with the changing world. Figure it'll probably be something story related?

Since the world is jumbo size and has verticality thanks to the underrealm , I am sure you can find some good spots hidden in the deep places of the world to place them.

Jamation

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

Jamation wrote: »

Personally wondering where the instanced dungeons will even fit in with the changing world. Figure it'll probably be something story related?

Since the world is jumbo size and has verticality thanks to the underrealm , I am sure you can find some good spots hidden in the deep places of the world to place them.

Oh sorry, I didn't mean like physically fit in. I more-so meant where they would be seen as normal/acceptable. Like why a dungeon would intentionally be instanced compared to open world. Like would they make XYZ dungeon an instanced dungeon just to make it instanced, or would it have a purpose/reason for being instanced

ThexBlackxKnight

Jamation wrote: »

Oh sorry, I didn't mean like physically fit in. I more-so meant where they would be seen as normal/acceptable. Like why a dungeon would intentionally be instanced compared to open world. Like would they make XYZ dungeon an instanced dungeon just to make it instanced, or would it have a purpose/reason for being instanced

It will be for Nodes story content and will appear when its unlock and can go away if the node is destroyed unlocking new content elsewhere.

Biccus

There are people here that don't want instanced dungeons because that would enable them to be "gatekept" away from the content. However they are right to say that instanced dungeons do seemingly go against the design of the world. Which is obviously everything is contested.
I think there are some valid concerns around it though, such as bosses being zerg magnets and it completely getting rid of any purely PvE high end competition. I remember hearing Steven saying some raid bosses are designed for a certain number of people, but that's just silly if they are just open for as many people as turns up.

maouw

Inixia wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Let's just say no to instanced dungeons.
Pretend they are not a thing!

why the instanced dungeon hate? just curious

For me it was my experience in Dragon's Nest.
Almost everything was instanced dungeons in that game.
The entire world felt fragmented and disconnected, there was a storyline involving a kidnapper on the run - who kept appearing at the end of each instance to run away.
It was 1 step away from a lobby based MMO, and that undermines the whole point of an MMO.

Andy

There are a lot of MMORPGs with fully instanced content.

For once, a new MMORPG try to bring back the content in the open-world but here you are, asking for a new "instanced competitive content" game.

AoC is not an another themepark fully instanced MMORPG and it's totally fine and why i'm so hyped about it.
I really really hope Steven will never follow this path.

Songcaller

The dungeons will be hardcore, have no worries about that.

Talents

I don't mind if there are "hardcore" instanced dungeons as long as they don't drop loot. Every bit of gear/mats in the game should come in some way from the open-world, not instanced areas. I don't care if they add "hardcore" instanced dungeons for purely challenging PvE content or for achievements and maybe titles, but you should never get the end-game gear from instanced content.

Khronus

Proxy wrote: »

I have seen that something like 80% of the ashes dungeons will be open world while 20% will be instanced. I was wondering what if the 20% instanced dungeons were designed and intended to be a hardcore experience? What I mean by that is the dungeons would reset to the beginning if everyone zones out or there is a party wipe. Additionally, I would personally like to see any gear and xp you get in the dungeon removed if you party wipe. Each dungeon could include a warning of modifiers that were built into the dungeon at the entrance. one example, maybe there is a lock carved on the wall to show that the dungeon locks when you enter it so you can not leave without dieing and/or if you lose a party member you can not get a new party member and have them zone in you get to decide if you can keep going with 4 people or give up. One way to offset this would be to include strategically placed resurrection stones/obelisks good for one resurrection so if your healer dies to a trap he should have seen coming you can revive him without having to restart as long as you have gotten to one of these stones.

Regardless I think it would add a level of fun if getting your loot was only half the battle you then needed to get out alive to keep what you got. Some additional modifiers that could be used I have included below

Dungeon has a higher than normal number of minion mobs (e.i. bring aoe if you can)
Dungeon bosses hit harder than normal.
Dungeon contains traps
Dungeon is unstable and will collapse 5 minutes after the last boss is slain.

I am not saying these should change regularly or anything like that but it would be a cool if a dev could take the normal dungeon formula and say I really want a bunch more of X and then add it while also giving people a heads up at the entrance what they are in for when you discover the dungeon. Imagine coming across a new dungeon with a new symbol that is not in the wiki yet and finding out the v shape with a water drop off it is a vampire fang and all the mobs heal for part of the damage they do so focus fire is extra important.

I am a massive fan of instanced raid content. I very much enjoy the progression aspect to what WOW used to do. That being said, it doesn't seem that AoC will offer anything even remotely close to what we want out of true PVE. It's up in the air how enjoyable the end game content will be. I really hope zerging doesn't end up being the way to go via end game. This would cause the game to fail quickly.

akabear

Talents wrote: »

I don't mind if there are "hardcore" instanced dungeons as long as they don't drop loot. Every bit of gear/mats in the game should come in some way from the open-world, not instanced areas. I don't care if they add "hardcore" instanced dungeons for purely challenging PvE content or for achievements and maybe titles, but you should never get the end-game gear from instanced content.

Almost same thinking, but don`t mind the hardest dungeons being instanced IF entry to that instance is gated & contestable by pvp. Safe entry, then defeats all other aspects and takes away challenge. And associated drops, mats from those dungeons / raids etc being contestable.

fabula

I always assumed dungeons would be tough by default, I do not want to see aoe pulls. I want people to worry about adds and pulling too much.

I don't want to see people running around all over the place if its content around their level, you should die pretty fast. I don't want the scenario where one guild kills another guilds group deep into a dungeon and the guild that got killed calls their buddies and suddenly the dungeon is filled with an unorganized stream of players running into the dungeon pulling everything along the way and not dying.

I would love it if dungeons were around the EQ or Warhammer level of difficulty when it comes to full group content. I wouldn't call this a hardcore dungeon, just a regular dungeon.

Rainwolffield

Don’t see any point in saying no to instanced dungeons as some want?? Just seems stupid to me. I’m not running around screaming “no open dungeons”
Even if I think they suck. I played UO, EQ, DAOC, Meridian 59, Gemstone 3 (lol). I’ve played open dungeons. I know the advantages and the pitfalls..
Instanced dungeons are both great for storytelling and give you the real “A party of heroes set out with a Ring/Horn/Sword” feel. Personally I’d love to see single party dungeons and Two Party Raid dungeons (basically 6-12 person range) I like the smaller size raids SS they are more personal and honestly easier to get the same people together multiple times a month. I personally would rather see open over 25+ man raids. I say keep the giant bosses like that and then build equally as challenging smaller content. See an OPEN dungeon is a one time build. Those smaller little things are able to be done by just a small group of designers. Personally I’d love to see Quest for say a Miner to get a special ore and run to X location with a group you hire or know and the miner has a scroll to open a small mine (say 10 random builds you can get) the group goes in, clears trash, bosses est and waves of mobs disrupting mining etc.. they don’t have to be Mechanar each time. Small teams can build these easily with today’s engines.

Okeydoke

"Ashes of Creation will be a seamless open-world experience.[3]

No loading time or loading screens between regions.
There will be open world dungeons and raids. The aspiration is to maintain the open world feel while being able to capitalize on the benefits of instanced mechanics.[4]

Instancing is only going to happen in certain dungeons where the desire is to have greater narrative appeal. Outside of these and arenas there will not be too much instancing anywhere else.[3]
There will be an 80/20 split between open world vs instanced encounters.[2][5][6]
There is no instancing in Alpha-1.[7]
We're probably going to do instancing only in certain dungeons and in arenas. You probably won't see instancing too much anywhere else. What you see is gonna be what you get.[3] – Jeffrey Bard

The PvP flagging system presents an opportunity for open conflict.[8]"

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Instancing

Okeydoke

All subject to change of course. But that's why they say no to instanced dungeons. They're going a different route than most mmo's that come out, different philosophy.

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