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What about several guilds of one community?

It is trouble of RU Server BDO, and noone fix it. For example: one community about 1000 people, and they create Three guilds for 300 people
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Comments

  • George BlackGeorge Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    I wish AoC makes guilds smaller in sizes.
    It would be more difficult to manage, lv up andvallocate attributes for 14 guilds of 70 members than 3 guilds of 300 members.

    70-100 member guilds can still form true alliances, with real guild leaders and banners, working together for the ally leader and achieve goals.

    300 member guilds is just a mass of strangers.

  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Smaller guilds will be able to acquire guild skills and augments which the larger guilds won't have, so smaller guild sizes might end up more attractive.
  • KhronusKhronus Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I certainly don't plan on managing 300 players in my guild. That seems like overkill and zerging content is pathetic. 100-150 depending on the perks is where my goal is based on current info about guilds. We may do a second guild for alts but even then I would delegate that guilds responsibilities to another player.
  • Cold 0ne FTBCold 0ne FTB Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Something unique to AOC is that even with elite tight knit communities numbers will matter. There will be a lot of content that will be gated behind a minimum force. Significant amounts of players will be required to regularly do most end game content. For instance sieges will require a minimum of 250 players. Which even if you are pulling from a pool of 300 would be difficult to consistently fill. Plus there is a significant advantage to having 250 players that are all vetted by the same standards, well geared and share discord/teamspeak.

    Another example is the dragons in the siege zone. Those dragons realistically require up to 60-100 players which in an active PvP environment would be hard to organize and manage with multiple guilds and raid leads.

    It would be unrealistic to assume a 30 or even a 100 person guild would be able to consitently do end game content. I am not saying it would be impossible but assume if your guild is that small you will need to regularly team up with multiple other guilds to compete. Which is a two way street because you will likely have to help them as much as you help them as alot of things like loot aren't shared inbetween different raids.
    ZxbhjES.gif

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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    Is 250 x 250 the minimum requirement or the minimum goal?
    My understanding is that the dev goal is to be able to support at least 250 x 250 at launch; not that you need to have a minimum of 250 to initiate or win a siege.
    And the devs really hope that they can reach the goal of supporting 500 x 500.
  • Cold 0ne FTBCold 0ne FTB Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dygz wrote: »
    Is 250 x 250 the minimum requirement or the minimum goal?
    My understanding is that the dev goal is to be able to support at least 250 x 250 at launch; not that you need to have a minimum of 250 to initiate or win a siege.
    And the devs really hope that they can reach the goal of supporting 500 x 500.

    I would assume that the guilds that could field those numbers would and those that couldn't would suffer. A difference of a few players here and there wouldn't really add up but the money the number is in the tens or dozens that's when you start to really feel the pain.
    ZxbhjES.gif

    That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    edited June 1
    How many citizens in a Village? How many citizens in a Town?
    How many players will rally to defend a Node will be dependent more on the number of citizens who can be online at the time of the siege than on guild numbers.
    Node siege is not one guild v one guild.

    Castle sieges are expected to rely on guild alliances.
    So, also probably won't be one guild v one guild.

    When you live in a Node with a bunch of people, it shouldn't be difficult to find people to group and raid with - especially to get rid of a Dragon that is terrorizing the Nodes in your region. Even without guilds.
    We can expect to know 100s of people who are online at the same time we're online near the Nodes we live in.
    And that is fairly easy to coordinate through Discord.
  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    There's already several long lasting gaming communities that boast well over 1k players actively recruiting for the game (some over 3k) and about twice as many that have at least 100 that will likely grow as well.

    With the ease of managing multiple guilds through a single Discord I can't think of any realistic way for Intrepid to stop mega-communities from making multiple guilds to get the most out of guild talents.

    Every single system in the game is made to promote being in a guild/community and it'll have to come down to other guilds/communities to push back against the big players much like what you saw in the early days of Eve during some of the large meta-wars that went on.

    We'll just have to wait and see if the benefits of large guilds going to war outweighs the benefits of partnering up.
  • DracoUlthimaDracoUlthima Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    There is really no point in big guilds. In any strong guild / clan, there will be a core and there will be just extras. So it was in the old days of Lineage 2 so it will be here. A guild of 1000 people are completely strangers who do not have a team spirit.

    I prefer guilds of 50-150 people
    _____________________________________________________________
    На самом деле нет смысла в больших гильдиях. В любой сильной гильдии/клане - будет ядро и будут просто массовка. Так было в старые времена Lineage 2 так будет и здесь. Гильдия из 1000 человек - это абсолютно незнакомые люди, у которых нет командного духа.

    Я предпочитаю гильдии 50-150 человек
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  • ThexBlackxKnightThexBlackxKnight Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    50 to 100 is the plan for my guild.
  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    There is really no point in big guilds. In any strong guild / clan, there will be a core and there will be just extras. So it was in the old days of Lineage 2 so it will be here. A guild of 1000 people are completely strangers who do not have a team spirit.

    I prefer guilds of 50-150 people
    _____________________________________________________________
    На самом деле нет смысла в больших гильдиях. В любой сильной гильдии/клане - будет ядро и будут просто массовка. Так было в старые времена Lineage 2 так будет и здесь. Гильдия из 1000 человек - это абсолютно незнакомые люди, у которых нет командного духа.

    Я предпочитаю гильдии 50-150 человек

    There's something to be said for raw numbers and knowing that those around you at the bare minimum aren't going to attack you. Large guilds will for sure be a meta in this game
  • ZythtyzZythtyz Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Maezriel This all depends on how the Guild Augments work. Also, you have to factor in Guild Alliances.
    If your augments for being in a small guild (unavailable to a large guild, as your guild points are spent increasing roster size) are significant in combat/resource gathering/etc, then the 50 players strength could match that of 100 or 150 or 200, as they are meant to balance this problem of large guilds dominating through numbers alone.

    As for Alliances, a guild of 300 might WANT that elite squad of 50 to come in and BLAST opposing players while they secure the dragon kill. These are formal Alliances that can be made with up to 3 OTHER guilds.
    Check out the Wiki, a lot of details there often overlooked by forum posters!
  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Zythtyz wrote: »
    @Maezriel This all depends on how the Guild Augments work. Also, you have to factor in Guild Alliances.
    If your augments for being in a small guild (unavailable to a large guild, as your guild points are spent increasing roster size) are significant in combat/resource gathering/etc, then the 50 players strength could match that of 100 or 150 or 200, as they are meant to balance this problem of large guilds dominating through numbers alone.

    As for Alliances, a guild of 300 might WANT that elite squad of 50 to come in and BLAST opposing players while they secure the dragon kill. These are formal Alliances that can be made with up to 3 OTHER guilds.
    Check out the Wiki, a lot of details there often overlooked by forum posters!

    Sure, but if your mega-sized guild is actually several smaller ones run through a single Discord then min-maxing those augments would be rather easy.

    There's really no (mechanical) downside to being in a very large community.
  • ThexBlackxKnightThexBlackxKnight Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    Maezriel wrote: »
    Sure, but if your mega-sized guild is actually several smaller ones run through a single Discord then min-maxing those augments would be rather easy.

    There's really no (mechanical) downside to being in a very large community.

    One thing though is that really big communities of players wont be able to be citizens of the same node and there is no guarantee that they can control multiple nodes through the mayor system. Quite possible these smaller guilds control by the same group would end out at war with each other if their nodes they are citizens of go to war or be too far apart to collaborate a whole lot with limited fast travel and guild halls being tied to the nodes, you would be more invested locally and be harder to send other players away to help other far away guilds dominate areas with sure numbers.

  • Node size may be a way to determine the reasonable size of a particular guild within a given community.

    I can see a guild leveraging 4-6 communities with around 50 members per community to have a meaningful force while spreading resources out enough to get some overall benefit.

    A pure PVP guild may be geared more toward castle sieges and guild wars, and therefore concentrate their numbers more than the average guild.

    Crafting guilds might be better served by spreading out much further.

    I can also see some mercenary guilds that aren’t settled in one community preferring to take their numbers wherever the best opportunities present themselves.
  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Maezriel wrote: »
    Sure, but if your mega-sized guild is actually several smaller ones run through a single Discord then min-maxing those augments would be rather easy.

    There's really no (mechanical) downside to being in a very large community.

    One thing though is that really big communities of players wont be able to be citizens of the same node and there is no guarantee that they can control multiple nodes through the mayor system. Quite possible these smaller guilds control by the same group would end out at war with each other if their nodes they are citizens of go to war or be too far apart to collaborate a whole lot with limited fast travel and guild halls being tied to the nodes, you would be more invested locally and be harder to send other players away to help other far away guilds dominate areas with sure numbers.

    Big communities need to only take over a few Nodes in a single area. It's fairly intuitive that having the Nodes surrounding a Metropolis all on the same page is going to make for an incredibly difficult siege.

    I don't think massive guilds will ever take over massive chunks of Verra, but they're for sure gonna make some areas extremely stable.
  • ThexBlackxKnightThexBlackxKnight Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One



    Maezriel wrote: »
    Big communities need to only take over a few Nodes in a single area. It's fairly intuitive that having the Nodes surrounding a Metropolis all on the same page is going to make for an incredibly difficult siege.

    I don't think massive guilds will ever take over massive chunks of Verra, but they're for sure gonna make some areas extremely stable.

    What if those mayors of the nodes are not on the same page , really depends if those big groups can get their players in position to be mayors.

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack


    Maezriel wrote: »
    Big communities need to only take over a few Nodes in a single area. It's fairly intuitive that having the Nodes surrounding a Metropolis all on the same page is going to make for an incredibly difficult siege.

    I don't think massive guilds will ever take over massive chunks of Verra, but they're for sure gonna make some areas extremely stable.

    What if those mayors of the nodes are not on the same page , really depends if those big groups can get their players in position to be mayors.

    If you have a large guild in your node, that is also in the nodes around you, you probably want to be in the same page as them.

    Large guilds dont need to be in control of node mayors, but node mayors do need to keep the bulk of their active citizenship happy.

    It is also likely, as has been suggested in this thread, that node clusters are going to be the norm, rather than specific nodes.

    It is highly likely that people will organize (at least loosely) in to a structure where a group of nodes provides all amenities players could want, all social organizations and religions covered. This allows guilds to live in a fairly confined area, while still allowing guild members access to most of the amenities they want, and also provides that multi-node society an assurance should the metropolis at its core be successfully sieged - leveling up one of the nearby city nodes would likely be pre-organized, resulting in the community having a different metropolis (most likely), but still being able to function as a large community.

    Nodes that they to go it alone are not worth living in.
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Very well explained @Noaani
  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Maezriel wrote: »
    Big communities need to only take over a few Nodes in a single area. It's fairly intuitive that having the Nodes surrounding a Metropolis all on the same page is going to make for an incredibly difficult siege.

    I don't think massive guilds will ever take over massive chunks of Verra, but they're for sure gonna make some areas extremely stable.

    Whether they form organically through the progress and interaction of an area, or are injected from a preexisting large community, people will work together to ensure the areas they like will be somewhat secure, most definitely.

    But it will be hard enough to "control" one large node as a large community, let alone a cluster. Their influence will be felt for sure, and they'll be the big name in the area, but with the multiple types of elections systems, the inability to restrict (not to mention zero desire to) immigration, and few other related systems, they're gonna have a hard time. Plus big communities are rarely in lockstep, more often they fragment into asscosiated sub groups nominally under the same banner, and people have a wide variety of desires and game intentions. Gonna be hard to keep them all happy.
  • BekengizerBekengizer Member
    edited June 4
    Use 1000 people for control one node, and made it metropolis it is real, and for pvp I can create 5 guilds with 50-100 people, and use max guild skills for my huge community for pvp, and i know communities who can made it.
    I was guild master, and i had 5 trusted men for create 5 guilds and develop it.
  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Ventharien wrote: »
    But it will be hard enough to "control" one large node as a large community, let alone a cluster. Their influence will be felt for sure, and they'll be the big name in the area, but with the multiple types of elections systems, the inability to restrict (not to mention zero desire to) immigration, and few other related systems, they're gonna have a hard time.

    Will they?

    Divine could be the hardest to maintain control simply due to it being based on quest...but if those quest are hard to the point where you can't solo them then a guild will be a huge help

    There's already a few different Economic focused guilds so buying an election wouldn't be impossible

    Votes are easy enough to gather if you're in a big guild

    Even Military nodes aren't immune since people in guilds will have greater access to the best gear

    Short of internal/social problems there's very little mechanics stopping a massive guild from taking over a few different nodes.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    Bekengizer wrote: »
    Use 1000 people for control one node, and made it metropolis it is real, and for pvp I can create 5 guilds with 50-100 people, and use max guild skills for my huge community for pvp, and i know communities who can made it.
    I was guild master, and i had 5 trusted men for create 5 guilds and develop it.
    It's possible to make 5 guilds, it's not necessarily possible to puppet master all of them because the 2nd pillar of Ashes is meaningful conflict.

    Just because there are 1000 people in the guild does not mean that that guild will always win a Node siege.
    It doesn't guarantee that the guild will comprise the majority of citizens in each vassal Node.
    Might be able to rig it so that the Mayors of the Military vassal Nodes are usually one of your guild members, but you can't guarantee that the Mayors of the Economic and Divine vassal Nodes are your guild members - you especially can't guarantee that the Mayors of the Scientific vassal Nodes are typically your guild members.
    Running a Metro is going to need way more than 6 Mayors.
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    You could make 3 x 300 Member Guilds and then form an alliance to total 900 Members, except you'd be one guild and could operate as a guild under the alliance tag.
  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Maezriel wrote: »
    Will they?

    Divine could be the hardest to maintain control simply due to it being based on quest...but if those quest are hard to the point where you can't solo them then a guild will be a huge help

    There's already a few different Economic focused guilds so buying an election wouldn't be impossible

    Votes are easy enough to gather if you're in a big guild

    Even Military nodes aren't immune since people in guilds will have greater access to the best gear

    Short of internal/social problems there's very little mechanics stopping a massive guild from taking over a few different nodes.

    Divine definitely has the highest chance to be difficult for large groups to guarantee. But in military nodes, YOUR gear won't matter, however the Champion system works will, and as they already switched that system around on the realization big guilds could game the system, i think there will be some useful safeguards at the very least.

    When most people have concerns about big guilds, it's not the economic focused ones they seem to be worried about. I find it's mostly the big pvp ones. That said, economic could be easier, and scientific for sure is where it'll be the easiest.

    That said, we also have to remember, just walking into an area doesn't mean you get to participate in election. You've got to purchase land, in one of the three forms, which is limited in amount. I imagine there will be several pissed off communities who have a majority of players in the area, but a minority of citizen ship.


  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Noaani wrote: »
    It is highly likely that people will organize (at least loosely) in to a structure where a group of nodes provides all amenities players could want, all social organizations and religions covered. This allows guilds to live in a fairly confined area, while still allowing guild members access to most of the amenities they want, and also provides that multi-node society an assurance should the metropolis at its core be successfully sieged - leveling up one of the nearby city nodes would likely be pre-organized, resulting in the community having a different metropolis (most likely), but still being able to function as a large community.

    Nodes that they to go it alone are not worth living in.

    Like having a plan B node? Makes sense. Will be interesting to see if tensions rise at points like these with other cities thinking they should be the pick.
  • McShaveMcShave Member
    tautau wrote: »
    Smaller guilds will be able to acquire guild skills and augments which the larger guilds won't have, so smaller guild sizes might end up more attractive.

    Having smaller guilds isn't really a fix to this problem. If you have guilds of 50 people, you can still make like 20 guilds for the 1000 person community, and just manage them using external resources like discord and excel. And they can specialize the different guilds for extra efficiency.
    Bekengizer wrote: »
    Use 1000 people for control one node, and made it metropolis it is real, and for pvp I can create 5 guilds with 50-100 people, and use max guild skills for my huge community for pvp, and i know communities who can made it.
    I was guild master, and i had 5 trusted men for create 5 guilds and develop it.

    One thing I think of when it comes to guild size balance is that Intrepid has stated that large guilds will have less guild perks available than smaller guilds. But does this mean that a 50 person guild can fight off a 200 person guild? What about 4 x 50 person guilds all communicating with each other in some manner. This sounds devistating.

    Now, how effectively they can control a node or castle or whatever is up to the command structure of the community. Everyone would need to communicate across the different guilds on discord. This would be rather difficult, but very much possible.
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    You are quite right that additive guilds could well be a problem. But do 20 guilds of 50 members each equal one guild of 1000 people in any way beside math?

    Maybe not. Why? Because people. 20 guild leaders who are inherently ambitious. Their loyalty to the 'leader of leaders' varies, many want to be that leader. Each of the 20 guild leaders (and each of their assistants) have differing skills, including people skills. Some are good leaders, some are jerks, some are lazy, some are micro-managers and often the mega-guilds will fall apart.

    If the 'leader of leaders' is able to build a team of good subleaders and hold the whole organization together and take over the world....good for them! That's what the game is about, right? But I don't think we will see that often.
  • YuyukoyayYuyukoyay Member
    The idea behind the Guild Limit is that you wouldn't want a guild with too many to not be able to have bonus augments and skills anyway. So they are probably meant to be pulled from various sources and not just 1 guild. Which even solo players will have a reason to participate in.

    Part of why they should make their in game chat perfect and ban discord. So that it's easier for pugs to communicate with other groups. I've seen so many Discords with stupid rules that ban you immediately if you do your first post wrong and it's required to get into actual voice channels. It's just a string of potential problems over just having voice chat be good in the game to begin with.
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  • ForlornFlyForlornFly Member
    edited June 9
    I know a lot of people have brought it up, but the game is going to give incentives for a guild to be small. I doubt any actual limit is going to be put in place however, because the devs want to game to be player driven. They want the politics that come from players having as much freedom as they can reasonably give.
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