Raiding with Exp debt

Kriddon

So how does raiding with exp debt work? Is it like okay guys we died 50 times while trying to progress on this raid encounter. So we have effectively deleveled from 50 to 45. Lets all go spend an hour or two working off the debt so we can try it again. Was this normal for most MMOs before wow? Because frankly in 6 hour raid nights spending 2 of it grinding off debt for weeks as we try to progress sounds terrible. Am I over reacting? Also is there like less exp debt when dying against mobs and/or bosses? Does it work in a totally different way? One thing I don't like about exp debt lowering your skill's power is that its basically making the game harder for sucking which in turn makes it harder. Those of you that have played those games, was raiding with exp debt that bad? And does it not quite work the way I think it does? Also sorry if I missed a wiki article that explains all this.

Vhaeyne

Avoid EXP debt.

Easy day.

George_Black

Nothing has been explained for instanced raiding.

During open world it's a different story. Dont die.

tautau

Back in L2, I was part of my server's first attempt to take Aden castle from the NPCs.

It took some people close to two weeks of grinding to get back to the level they had at the start of the siege.

So perhaps it is a Yes, failing repeatedly at a raid might cause you a lot of work. Actions have consequences.

Oh, and the attempt to take Aden from the NPCs was not successful.

Dygz

We do know that there is no deleveling.
Also, the percentage of xp debt per death lessens as levels increase.
Steven said xp debt near max level will be around 3%.

That being said. I think if a raid wipes 5 times in a row, they should be motivated to retreat, re-gear, recuperate and re-strategize before returning to try again. We shouldn't just be throwing ourselves into our own slaughter 50 times in a row with meaningless consequences.

Kriddon

George Black wrote: »

Nothing has been explained for instanced raiding.

During open world it's a different story. Dont die.

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Avoid EXP debt.

Easy day.

True I'm hoping it might me a little less severe for instanced PVE. And true not dying is usually always good strat will try.

tautau wrote: »

Back in L2, I was part of my server's first attempt to take Aden castle from the NPCs.

It took some people close to two weeks of grinding to get back to the level they had at the start of the siege.

So perhaps it is a Yes, failing repeatedly at a raid might cause you a lot of work. Actions have consequences.

Oh, and the attempt to take Aden from the NPCs was not successful.

I see. I think it would be less annoying if it took them only like a few days. Not trying to make the game care bear or super casual or anything. It's just that this mechanic reminds me of BloodBorne. In BB you get health potions by random enemy drops. And while attempting bosses you would run out. So you would have to stop your attempts and go grind out some potions for a bit before going back. And to me this always sucked. It felt like I had to stop playing the game or at the very least stop the fun part. Especially after playing dark souls where you get potions every time you come back from death. Almost feels like they made a problem. To me at least.

Also was it like super hard to do anything else while deleveled? Did it ruin or make much harder other parts of the game? Or was like be deleveled after some raiding not end up being that big a deal?

Marcet

I used to play RoM, it had exp debt and in your guild hall you could build a library to get exp debt reduction while afk, it was quite an investment and everybody in the guild had to farm, but it was so worth when you unlocked it.
Maybe this game could have something like that, if not, I don't think it will be much of a problem.

Songcaller

Dygz wrote: »

We do know that there is no deleveling.
Also, the percentage of xp debt per death lessens as levels increase.
Steven said xp debt near max level will be around 3%.

That being said. I think if a raid wipes 5 times in a row, they should be motivated to retreat, re-gear, recuperate and re-strategize before returning to try again. We shouldn't just be throwing ourselves into our own slaughter 50 times in a row with meaningless consequences.

I think you hit the nail on the head why people are so adamant about combat trackers.

George_Black

Neurath wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

We do know that there is no deleveling.
Also, the percentage of xp debt per death lessens as levels increase.
Steven said xp debt near max level will be around 3%.

That being said. I think if a raid wipes 5 times in a row, they should be motivated to retreat, re-gear, recuperate and re-strategize before returning to try again. We shouldn't just be throwing ourselves into our own slaughter 50 times in a row with meaningless consequences.

I think you hit the nail on the head why people are so adamant about combat trackers.

We dont need combat metrics. YOU need to develop real human relations, figure out who in your guild knows how to play the game, spent time progressing as friends and get better together, not "lf 2 dd 1 healer 1 tank and God bless"


Again, nobody said anything about xp debt during instanced content. You can possibly wipe to your hearts content

Songcaller

While I agree we don't need parsers, we can make Pick up groups if we want to make pick up groups. With the node system Guilds could be spread out unless you don't want to have appropriate social or religious augments for your class and your desire. Some might want to be bounty hunters, others might not want to be bounty hunters (Current discussion in my Guild). So unless you want to be forced to play a way you do not want, then choices will matter and location will matter and options will matter.

Vhaeyne

To be clear about XP debt and raiding. At no point have I ever seen anything that says there "will" be any instanced raiding.

That being said, there will be instanced "Dungeons" as a part of quest lines "if" they feel the need to use them. The 80/20% rule seems to be a shooting from the hip estimate, not a promise.

To me having instanced content goes against the whole risk vs reward goal of the game. I would love it if they just decided not to waste any time on instanced content and forgo them all together.

I am hoping they keep the focus on the open-world content. Anything worth having should be fought over in the open world.

I bring all of this up because there should never be a case where you go and progress a raid for any amount of time racking up debt. You can do it whilst fighting off your competition, or you can't. That is the reality of open world raiding.

If you don't think your raid has the stones to fight off other guilds whilst fighting a raid boss. Then don't risk the XP dept. Don't expect the DEVs to give you safe spaces(instances) to rack up XP debt. As far as I know, instanced raids has never been confirmed. I honestly hope it never is.

fabula

I do not think there's been a good example of a game that has done something similar to what AoC is planning. In L2 you could lose exp by dying but your stats remained the same.

This is one of my concerns aswell. I will give an example of an end game raid person's day.
They get home from work, maybe there's a scheduled instanced raid they are currently working on. They go try that, wipe around 3-5 times, depending on the progress decide what needs to be changed, maybe restock and try again. I don't expect the penalties to be noticeable at around 3-5 deaths at all. Maybe at around 8+ they start to become noticeable.

I also expect the penalties being wiped out pretty fast, 15-30 min max of grinding. You would keep trying for however long the guild scheduled this event for, maybe a couple of hours if you think you can do it or giving up and moving onto something else if you don't think you can.

Now if it took longer, say 1-2 hrs. You could do only one of these tries per day and would struggle to get people interested in it if it wasn't already in farm status because that would mean they wasted that whole day without advancing at all.

This is under the best of circumstances where the content is either instanced or an open world boss where no one else is bothering you.

You have to balance out the stat dampening death penalty so that players cannot use it to mindlessly send bodies at whatever content is in their way but at the same time want them to wipe out a few times and not have them grind for hours each day to be combat ready the next day.

Songcaller

There won't be any instance raids, only instanced dungeons. Some of these instanced dungeons could be 1 player dungeons because they will be story driven. I'm not convinced the stat dampening will be too extreme, merely noticeable for a min/maxed player. I wouldn't expect any less than 5% stat dampening and no more than 20% stat dampening. XP debt also affects the loot drops too. You can't have one extreme element when there are multiple facets to the detriment.

George_Black

L2 had death penalty stat reduction 2 years after release.

Percimes

Ok, this question ties rather well with one of things I don't get with the death penalty: reduced drop %.

How is that part of the penalty applied to groups, or raids. Are everyone drop % penalties added for a global one? Only the worse one is applied? Is that part of the dept penalty ignored in those situations? Is anyone with a dept penalties now banned from raids because the magic screwdriver +4 might not drop if they're there?