Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
Will Ashes have Legendary Raid Bosses?
Yes, most certainly.
Will Ashes have focused PvE end game raiding content with recurring updates after release?
Probably not ... but I would be happy to be proven wrong.
I'm not forgetting that at all, quite the contrary. The entire discussion started when I pointed out that AoC can't have bosses on the level of WoW's modern Mythic raids and still have them be clearable.
When people hear Steven say:
They get all hyped up and if they have experience raiding in WoW or FFXIV then they can have a very different view on what constitutes difficult. I would honestly be surprised if the percentage of WoW's playerbase that completes Mythic Raids hit double digits...and that's w/o World PvP and running all the way back from town.
That's why I think it's important for people to temper expectations so they don't go hyping themselves up for something the game can't physically support.
This comment from Steven is why many players first started looking at the game.
What Ashes will end up with is raid content that only a single digit percentage of the population ever kill not because of it's inherent difficulty, but because of it's rarity. It will be the people that win the race/PvP to the encounter that get the kill, not the people that are best at PvE that get the kill.
As such, since it is PvP that will determine the outcome of these encounters, these encounters are PvP content as far as I am concerned.
This may well turn in to an anti-trust thing (as has been the case with a few other games over the last few years) if Intrepid don't start actually talking clearly about what it is they want their top end PvE content to be.
I mean, right now, with what statements Intrepid have put out there and have not gone to any lengths to retract, there are many gamers that could give this game a casual glance and expect it to have a WoW/FFXIV style raid game. If the game launches as I suspect it will (with an Archeage/BDO style "raid" game), then those people could well feel they were lied to in marketing - based on comments like the above.
The difference between what we have been told and what I personally expect to be launched at this point is about as great a difference as what people felt they were told about No Mans Sky and what eventually launched.
When I first looked at the game, I saw the node system, death penalty, and pvp flagging system and got excited.
Ok, what statement have they said that you think doesn't accurately reflect how things are?
Based off your perception of how you think their raids will turn out, how do you think they should describe it to not deceive people?
They have been clear about the death penalty and open world nature of the game from the beginning. You seem to think these elements need to change which would mean the intrepid would going back on what they have said. What happens then? Is it cool because it's what you wanted?
Also, by you and @Maezriel own emission, the content can be as difficult as you want. You both just decide that it would be too difficult once other aspects of the game get added in, therefore shouldn't be a thing. You guys contradicting yourselves.
There is a danger of wanting to add harsh features just for the sake of being able to say "this is a hardcore game." This feature has always been disliked by the masses because it adds nothing to a game. Over and over you see in this tread "punishment." A punishment.... you wont to pay to log in and be punished? Ok, Ill send you my paypal and you send me 10% of each of your paychecks. Ill even respond to each payment with a message telling you how horrible you are for paying me.
People play games to have fun. Punishment is the opposite of fun. I have nothing against putting effort into my gaming. As long as Im getting a reward down the line, I am more than willing to put the work in. Putting work in to just get punished if something goes wrong? We can all sit here and given ways a person can die in a vidgame that has nothing to do with them doing anything "wrong." I dont think throwing salt on to the wound adds anything to that.
The gist here is,,, the punishment will force a person to do other fun content to repay it. If it is fun, you dont need to force someone into doing it. The answer is make gameplay engaging/enjoyable in the first place and they will come.
If you look for information on raids in Ashes, the above quote is what you find.
It paints a picture of Ashes being a game with raid content along the same lines as WoW and FFXIV (and other games). In order to understand how the raid content in the game is actually going to end up, you need to actually dig deep in to many different aspects of the game, and infer from those aspects what limitations are going to inherently be placed on raid content in Ashes. I'm not sure what you mean by this statement.
My assumption is that you are talking about the fact that PvE content can be made as difficult as a developer wants to make it, from dead easy to literally impossible.
While this is true, no matter how hard a piece of content is, that difficulty is ramped up once you allow PvP to be a thing.
In the same way developers can design an encounter that is possible to be killed and one that isn't possible to be killed, they can also make encounters that are possible to be killed while involved in PvP. Encounters in the open world need to fit in to this category. They need to be able to be defeated while in PvP, rather than just needing to be able to be defeated.
The issue here is that if you take that encounter that is only just able to be defeated in PvP, and you remove that PvP, you suddenly have an easy encounter. The PvP was what provided the challenge, not the encounter.
If you make the encounter so difficult that you need to get rid of the PvP and then take on the encounter, then the group that win the encounter are the group that win the PvP.
None of these are examples of a raid encounter that is difficult. None of these are even examples of PvE content.
Yes. That "standard" you say was set by WoW is based on flawed MMORPG design - endgame....
Endgame exists because WoW designers for themepark MMORPGs cannot meet the content demand.
Gamers race through the curated content within several weeks and then are stuck waiting 1-2 years for new content. So mythic dungeons and raids exist to keep players paying a subscription for years... and we eventually get to the state where gamers say absurdities like, "Endgame is the real game." and where many gamers think that leveling is just a time sink to get to "the real game."
In a game where you spend the vast majority of your time in the "endgame" - waiting for the devs to create something else for you to do... xp debt for dungeons and raids is pointless. There is nothing else for people to do, so there is no reason to push people away from looping dungeons and raids.
But, that is not how MMORPGs are intended to be. That is due to a flawed design that results in Endgame being the real game rather than always having other stuff to do.
Ashes game design fixes that flaw. Which is why the devs are using xp debt to push players to go out and do other stuff in the world for a while rather than just stay in a Dungeon or Raid for 20+ deaths in a row.
Hardcore raiding is not going to e the same as WoW. Just as casual gathering is not going to be the same as WoW.
WoW also has a standard of separate PvE servers - which will not be in Ashes.
XP Debt is not going to negate in-depth raiding.
Defeating a dungeon and raid, thereby, becomes more like an actual story, where there are negative consequences for a defeat, rather than just "standing in the fire" because it doesn't matter if you do.
Just staying around in a Dungeon or Raid looping defeats 20+ time in a row because there are no negative consequences for multiple defeats is absurd for an RPG. But, it's a necessary evil for an MMORPG getting revenue from an "Endgame is the real game model".
"Endgame is the real game" is objectively bad game design.
Wanting XP debt to not be a thing for Dungeons and Raids is like not wanting Corruption or wanting a PvE-Only server.
The gist is not that punishment will force a person to do other fun stuff, the gist is that XP debt provides consequences for LOSING. And pushes players to go out and interact with the rest of the world as they work off that XP debt. Doesn't really matter whether a person thinks farming raids in endless loops is more fun than other activities in the game.
Games typically have penalties - especially for defeats and losses.
Intrepid cannot put bosses in AoC that in instanced content would take 300+ wipes to kill b/c the inclusion of open world PvP would make them impossible to beat. That would be bad game design.
That's not a contradiction, it's a very clear statement.
Let's be honest, Intrepid has not always had the best track record w/ clear, concise, communication. There's nothing malicious there...Steven is just giddy and excited to geek out about his project.
You know how Steven constantly repeats not to buy Alpha testing unless you're strictly looking for a true Alpha experience? Well it wouldn't hurt for him to come right out and say that AoC won't be the game for you if you're coming to it w/ the intent to experience progression raiding like you would in WoW or FF. Intrepid probably won't though b/c they don't really gain anything by it...kind of like how they consistently say the game is PvX and whereas that might be technically true everyone who's followed this game longer than a week knows at it's heart it's a PvP game.
To loosely quote someone: It's not flawed design, it's just a design you don't like.
Themepark MMOs have their place in the market and w/o their systems you cannnot have the incredibly intense cooperative raids that currently exists at the highest level. WoW has it's flaws...Mythic raiding is not one of them. Even in Shadowlands which has outright flopped Nathria was considered one of the best raids yet.
To make myself very clear...again...I'm just saying that people should come into the game understanding that raid bosses can't be much more difficult than what you'd find in Burning Crusade b/c PvP, XP Debt, and travel would make them impossible to beat.
Not difficult, not "only 1%", impossible.
You cannot have it both ways, you can't have Mythic WoW bosses and this "journey" of yours. People will burn out. Wildstar had plenty of issues, but key among it was that it's attunement was so brutal that people just stopped playing long before getting to the boss. Even in WoW every Mythic guild leader knows the mantra "never stop recruiting" b/c retention and preventing burnout is insane b/c of how mechanically demanding Mythic raiding is.
If Intrepid wants mechanically intense raid bosses then they'll have to consider adding an aura to those bosses that prevents XP debt. Otherwise, they have to crank the complexity and difficulty of those bosses to the floor b/c even a boss as brain dead easy as Onyxia would wreck people's worlds in the middle of an active PvP battle.
We will just keep ignoring the whole fun vs punishment side. A lose already has a penalty. MMOs by design are a time sink. They wouldnt survive if they werent. Time is a players investment/commodity. When you "lose" you pay in your true currency.. the lose of time. You really think doubling that lose is appealing?
Among other things, your want just leads to nothing but elitism and toxicity. It is obvious how this will go down... Raid wipes. Someone needs to be blamed so Sam and Alice are called out and blamed (maybe they actually made a mistake, maybe not.) Will people say "hey lets help you learn..?" No, we all know thats not what is about to happen. As always happens on the internet, the dog piling begins. You know, if drama is being thrown at someone else they are not targeting you, so better jump in and make it look good. From this point forward Sam and Alice will be ridiculed and content blocked.
You can claim how thats not how youd act all you want. Even if thats true, majority people will act that way.
PvP games as well as high-end raiding content is well known for being a toxic environment (not every players but as a whole.) Good way to attract players is to encourage the toxicity?
I get it, it is a ego boost to toss around the badge of honor "I play only the most hardcore MMO." Fact is, the game isnt just yours. You cant have a MMO with just a handful of players. Any open world PvP based MMO already has an inherent flaw that they have to overcome (and its my hope they are able to out design that flaw.) Why throw up more obstacles that add nothing to the game.
Compare that to running back 20 times in a row right away without sufficient time for reflection and planning. Of course you get wiped another 19 times! Some people might even allege that you are doing things poorly. Insanity can be defined as doing the same thing again an again and expecting different results.
Yes, you are about to say that in between each of your 20 wipes you come up with new ideas...but not nearly as many ideas or as good ideas as if you did it Dygz's way which allows careful consideration and planning. If your ideas were good, you would avoid most of those 19 wipes!
Edit spelling.
Have you ever raided at the Mythic level? It's largely already known what happened to cause a wipe and there's plenty of time to discuss minor ideas while rebuffing.
At the end of the day it comes down to people needing to run the boss enough times to memorize what they need to do and if half your day is spent just getting to it then you'll have less time to run it. Even Dark Souls has checkpoints outside of boss rooms for exactly this reason.
No, they can, by your own emission, they can. Just because you think it's bad design doesn't mean they can't.
He has said that the game will not be for everyone with most recent being the mmorpg subreddit ama. Just because someone likes raiding in themepark games doesn't mean they won't find the way ashes plays enjoyable. We don't have the game yet so making assertions on what people will enjoy is pointless.
This game is only a pvp game to you because it's not a pve game. Pve is required to advance in this game and getting resources.
@Noaani you aren't supposed to kill a pve encounter while pvp is present. Just because pvp can be present doesn't mean it will always be. It is something you will have to sort out with the others on your server.
The obstacle does add something. Just like what you mentioned, it adds some prestige. You get that extra feeling of accomplishment for completing something that is difficult. It's also a soft way to push people to engage with other people and systems. Playing with others decreases your chance to die. You also want to spend money on consumables as using a consumable is cheaper then paying the death penalty.
You seem to agree that there should be some punishment for death but have drawn a line that this is too far.
These were features that have been mentioned from the beginning. You are coming in to a game and saying it has to change because you declare that others won't like it. I'm sorry for being antagonistic but when framed like that, do you not see yourself as being toxic?
My favorite part of this is where you blatantly ignore the actual arguments presented and then just say we're contradicting ourselves while stubbornly refusing to accept that if Intrepid makes the game too difficult then that goes beyond "not for everyone" and straight into "bad game design."
I have provided examples of past games, I've clearly explained exactly where my experience is I'm coming from, I can't paint a clearer picture to crack through your stubborn denial of fact.
I'm happy to continue this discussion, but you have to bring more than literally nothing to refute that adding Mythic level bosses into a PvP battleground ON TOP OF XP debt, travel, and Corruption wouldn't cause the game to be so hard it fails just like others have.
Yes, I was being lazy and just pointing out that the possibility is there but I also don't put a lot of stock in your declaration of it being too hard. I agree with dgyz in that the penalty doesn't make things harder, just reduces the number of attempts you can do at one time. If it takes the same amount of time but over a larger time period, I'm not sure if consider that harder.
I'm sorry if i missed it but i haven't seen you provide past examples, i just see hypotheticals. You have said that mythic wow content would be "too hard" because you can't play it the exact same way you would in wow.
I can also continue this discussion and talk about how pve focused gameplay might look like but it will be theorcrafty and at the end of it, I don't think you will like the answer as this game isn't going to play the same as wow which seems to be what you want.
If you want, i will be in the discord in roughly 1.5-2 hours if you want to talk about this.
First off.. giving an opinion based on experience is toxic? Or is it just not agreeing with you that is toxic? Seems to me that the development team has asked opinions repeatedly. That should be a clue they want to hear different views. Alpha/betas are not just technical testing. Features can and do change over the course of development. From everything Ive seen, the developers are intelligent people. I seriously doubt they want nothing but a bunch of rabid yes men.
Im not declaring anything. I am stating a fact that has been true for over 20 years of MMOing. I never said all players wont like it, but in my personal experience the majority of players out there disdain it. Nor did I demand it changes. It is not what will determine whether I decide to devote my time to the game or not.
Where do you keep getting this idea that I want the game to play like WoW?
I don't want the game to play like WoW I want people to have realistic expectations for the game.
Not sure about the rest of this thread though, seems XP debt got highjacked.
I'm getting that from your wow examples. You give an example of how you play wow, talk about how if you tried to play it that way in ashes it would be too hard.
How am i supposed to be reading this? What am i missing?
Yes, things can change. I know i don't have any final opinions of it yet.
Giving an opinion is saying, i don't prefer the death penalty and giving reason if you have one.
You declaring how others would behave is not your opinion. You made the declaration that not enough people would play the game if they kept the design you don't prefer. I'm sorry if I misinterpret that but this comes across as a threat and an attempt to manipulate, which is toxic.
Just because something isn't popular, doesn't mean it can't find an audience or even become popular in the future. BRs weren't popular 5 years ago and look at them now.
Literally the rest of my comments. Like, you read "Wow" four comments ago and immediately thought I wanted the game to play like WoW and have shut out everything else I've said.
World of Warcraft is the standard for hardcore raiding w/ FFXIV as a close second. If somebody w/ experience raiding in either game comes looking at Ashes and reads the quote from Steven I posted about there being difficult raiding they're likely to think something far from what the game can actually handle.
This entire derailment started when I mentioned that in WoW it's standard to wipe 20 or more times in a single night (as I've repeatedly stated) this is b/c the mechanics are so tightly tuned that you need to have them memorized and have near robotic reflexes in order to kill Mythic Bosses. @Dygz then started commenting how that's absurd and how XP Debt and respawns are meant to add to the "journey back."
The top guild in the world took 346 attempts to finally down Mythic Jaina in BfA. Three Hundred & Forty Six. And she's not even top 5 for hardest bosses in the game
If you add PvP, xp debt, and running from afar all to this then we're talking about the number of wipes rising to such exponential rates that bosses will be mathematically impossible to clear.
My only argument, my only statement is that you cannot have modern Mythic level raid bosses and PvP. It cannot be done b/c no one will ever clear the raids and as we saw w/ Wildstar games can fail for being too hard. This is multiplied by the fact that AoC wants 40 man raids...doesn't matter how badly you want to stroke your ego for beating an uber hardcore game if you can't even get 40 people to join you b/c the grind is that brutal.
The only way raiding works in AoC is to either remove the majority of death penalties from raid fights to allow for more mechanically challenging bosses or to bring raid bosses down to Onyxia/Ragnaros level fights, which are very easy bosses inside of a controlled instance but would be nightmares in the open world surrounded by PvP.
No guild is going to stand back and allow a rival (or potential rival) to get a kill on an encounter that will give that rival/potential rival guild an advantage.
If you can stop them, you will.
That means any such encounter can only realistically be taken on by a guild that wins the surrounding PvP, making it PvP content. Even if the PvP isn't happening while you are taking on the encounter, you need to win the PvP to get the encounter. That makes the encounter a PvP reward, in the same way gear earned in PvP in many other games is a PvP reward.
Even *if* you were able to convince every decent guild to leave you alone to take the encounter on, if the encounters are on par in terms of difficulty as encounters in other games, it won't take a guild attacking you to render the encounter actually impossible, it will take just a single player attacking your tank or a key healer.
This means that the notion of achieving an attempt on such an encounter via "diplomacy" would require that diplomacy to be undertaken with every player, rather than every guild.
I've never seen a PvP game where every guild on a server gets behind a proposal, let alone one where every player gets behind it.
Now, I'm not sitting here saying "this is what top end content in Ashes will be", because there are many different possibilities of how it could go. They could make it difficult, at which point it becomes a PvP reward (you need to clear all rivals in order to have a shot at the encounter). They could make it easier in which case it becomes a race to get there first (first to get there will get the kill). They could make it in between in which case it becomes PvP content.
However, absolutely none of the possibilities of how it could go match up to Stevens comments that were quoted above in this thread.
That is the issue.
Ok, cool. One question with those wipe stats is how much did gear play a role in them? Would they have wiped as much if they had more time to farm gear in the instance?
As for stevens comment, i think it still stands. Yes, he said that but the information about the death penalty and presence of pvp has always been available. He has always been very stern about the best gear coming from bosses in the open world. It comes across as a little disingenuous to say that people should hear/read that comment and then just assume the game will play like wow when the other information that challenges that assumption is available.
I think a part of steven's comment is worth focusing on:
"It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well"
For starters, I'm going to be stay stubborn and still say yes, they can have that difficult content in the open world, It's just not going to be for everyone but there will be other content for you to do. Whether it's the instanced pve content or easier open world pve content.
I also will still say the death penalty doesn't have a strong effect the number of times you can attempt a boss at one time but doesn't necessarily increase the number of wipes. You might have to do a boss over a larger period of time but that doesn't mean you will be wiping more because of the death penalty. Since it's in the open world, you are also able to run away from the boss to do a reset instead of everyone having to die.
Lastly, do you think you are really being fair? You say that because steven said that comment, he miss lead you. So does that mean, that in that comment, he needed to mention every aspect of the game that would be different to what a wow/ff14 player would expect even though he has mentioned this in the past? Whenever he brings up high end pve, does he need to mention how it is different to wow in every way? Can he not talk about a pve boss without mentioning what happens if it kills you and that it's in the open world? Do you think that is reasonable?
What about the fact that a lot of gear won't be bind of pickup? Does he also need to mention that everytime he talks about a raid boss?
lol no.
To expand a little, top end raiding like that is not as much about just a few item upgrades - it is about player ability. When you pull an encounter, you can tell after the first wipe if you are lacking in gear or not. People think that games like WoW have no need for player ability (myself included - in relation to WoW when compared to other games), but on raids, this is not the case.
It isn't just your ability with your class, it is your ability to do what is needed - what ever is needed.
Hell, I remember one encounter in which a portion of the raid was literally required to use instruments to play a song.
People that don't raid top end content will never understand top end content. I am including Steven in this.
But we all know wow mythics are too easy for you so i doubt you would wipe on them so many times.
I'm not sure where you got that idea.
I have never been involved in a mythic raid in WoW where the guild had not already killed the encounter. This is largely due to me personally never having had a WoW account, and thus never having actually joined a guild myself.
All WoW raids I have been involved in (which have included a good number of mythic kills) were as me helping out a guild on content they were already familiar with.
So yeah, I guess you could say that I don't wipe as many times as top end guilds, if you wanted to look at it that way.
I'm probably thinking about times you insult wow's combat. My B but good job admitting to not knowing what you are talking about.
To expand on what i was saying, player gear still helps as you are able to finish phases and the whole encounter faster as well as your class being able to perform better in general. Yes, you still have to figure out mechanics but gear gives you wiggle room.
Only reason i ask is because i wonder how much average number of attempts differs from world first numbers. That said, i think my core argument still stands.
For the absolute top players a few pieces makes a notable difference, for most it's raw mechanics holding them back and remember, that 350+ clear was for the absolute best many can take 500+ deep into the season (so when their characters have better gear) in order to clear those bosses
There's "not for everyone" which top tier raiding definitely fits and then there's "so difficult it literally can't be done." I strongly doubt that 10% of WoW's raiders clear Mythic content by the time the next patch rolls around then add PvP on top of that.
You've gone beyond stubborn and are screaming towards denial of basic math.
You're able to reset in WoW as well, attempts doesn't mean full wipes. However, I'd be astonished if guilds allowed you to reset w/o coming in and clearing you out while you're licking your wounds.
@Noaani is 100% right about how PvP is in these types of games.
I didn't say he mislead anyone. There's room for interpretation b/c what's difficult for someone used to this style of game is incredibly different from what someone w/ Mythic raiding experience would consider difficult.
But dude I'm tired of this odd derailment.
The only actual argument here is just how difficult raid bosses can be before it becomes degenerate and NO ONE has provided a shred of an argument w/ any actual examples to show that you can have a boss as hard as the ones found in modern Raid focused games on top of AoC's PvP systems.
So in an attempt to get back to @truelyyy's original discussion. Do I think XP Debt at max level is a bad idea?No, I fully agree that it's an excellent way to get people out into the world and explore other types of content.
Is there anything inherently wrong w/ wiping on a boss and needing to go grind off that debt? No.
Do I think the bosses in AoC will be remotely on the level as those found in WoW/FF? Hell no...b/c they'd be physically impossible to clear thus no one would ever raid and an entire pillar of the game would be utterly dead.
I didn't say anything about not be able to something "in a single night". That's not my concept so I dunno why attribute that me.
While I did not initially state 20+ times "in a row", I later clarified I meant in a row.
I also said nothing about respawns being meant to add to the journey back.
I said that the purpose of XP debt is to provide negative consequences for being defeated numerous times (which is what would happen if you were actually defeated by a Dragon) to cause those characters retreat, re-gear or repair gear, and return later. Which is also what survivors defeated by a Dragon would do. That's the kind of thing we should expect to see in an RPG. Rather than people attacking a boss 20+ times until they succeed with no negative consequences.
And you now say you fully agree that it's an excellent way to get people out into the world and explore other types of content.
So... seems like you didn't actually disagree with my point.
That is a hyperbolic assertion with woefully insufficient support.
It will take longer to clear. And it might require the help of other people outside of the expected raid group.
But...the primary reason to kill the Winter Dragon is to end the perpetual winter that is devastating the region, so... whatever it takes to kill it. And it will be killed eventually.
That elitist, top raid guild might not be able to do it alone - and that's OK.
Ashes is not a game that you beat.
That's a bold, unsubstantiated claim.
We shall see how accurate that is when we actually get in to play.
XP Debt most likely means that it will take longer to kill a boss, clear a Dungeon and clear a Raid.
And it will not be guaranteed that those same elitist, top-end raid groups will consistently do all of that stuff on their own.
Some people assume that open-world raiding means that the bosses will be contested via PvP, but there will also be times that defeating the boss means cooperating with the random groups that appear to also defeat that boss.
The irony is so thick I could actually weld into a gauntlet and facepalm myself black and blue.
2: XP Debt on raids does not make raids hard, it does mean it will take longer to clear raids.
3: My claim is that Ashes Dungeons and Raids are designed to have XP debt. And I have stated why the devs want them to have XP debt. That's substantiated by the wiki and numerous vids and interviews.
4: Your claim is that XP Debt is: "The only way raiding works in AoC is to either remove the majority of death penalties from raid fights to allow for more mechanically challenging bosses or to bring raid bosses down to Onyxia/Ragnaros level fights". That assertion cannot be substantiated until we play the game, so... we wait to play the game to see how accurate your claim is. No irony involved there.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯