Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
WoWs combat system is shit. WoWs content is ok.
To answer your question directly, gear isnt really that much of a help. It may well be that a guild starts working on an encounter before they have the gear that would be needed to win, but the guild is still gaining knowledge and experience on the encounter - and that knowledge and experience would need to be gained even if the guild in question waited until they had the gear they would need before starting.
If what you suggest is true - that gear is the limiting factor in top end content, then all guilds that are putting in effort to kill a top end encounter before having that gear should be able to kill it first pull after getting that gear. This is never the case - these encounters rarely go down on less than the 10th pull of the day, even if we are not talking about a guilds first kill.
To be clear, gear is key in some aspects of raiding. DPS checks absolutely are a thing, and having gear is key to them. However, these are checks placed in front of players before they reach the top end, they are rarely a factor once you get there.
As I said earlier, people that don't raid top end content will never understand top end content. This includes Steven.
When you get to top end content, you have already long ago mastered the games combat system (even in games with a harder to master combat system than WoW). When you get to this stage of the fame, the challenge isnt in being able to hit the DPS you need to hit, or the heals you need, it is in being able to do those things in between doing the things the encounter requires you to do.
If it takes me 120 people to kill a top end raid encounter, then good luck to Intrepid on having content that only single digit percentage of players are able to kill.
If I need that many people, the barrier to entry on being a part of that kill is suddenly a whole lot lower, to the point where literally any player in the game at max level would be able to be a part of it.
In fact, since there is now no upper limit on how many people can be involved in the kill, I could organize 10%+ of a server to be involved in a single kill of it.
Again, this may well be how things end up, but it means the comment by Stwven is incorrect, and players will enter the game with the absolute wrong idea of what to expect.
Please just tell any friends you have that enjoy raiding in WoW/FFXIV that if they want to look into AoC's Raiding scene that they should do so expecting something similar to the World Bosses of Classic and BC and not something like the progression raiding scene.
You can ask any of the World First raiders, including Complexity Limits GM Max, how much gear matters.
They have explicitly stated Jaina took so many pulls because they had less gear the first week, and she was downed the 2nd week. This tier, in Nathria, the only reason Denathrius took less pulls than SLG(Penultimate boss) was because of the gear they gained through re-clearing on the first reset.
Gear absolutely plays a role, and if you take the time to get better gear, you will reduce the number of wipes. THAT is a fact you can quote me on.
Get your nose checked.
I specifically said it was likely that they started pulling before they had the gear they would have liked.
If you are going to call people out and claim they are lying, at least take the time to read what they have said first.
@Zythtyz is right that gear is important. As you've already stated when we're talking World First Mythic raiding you're talking people good enough at the game that gear is the deciding factor.
But honestly just about anyone that can clear Heroic content fairly early in the season will see gear be the biggest benefit. I fall into this group of not good enough to clear Mythic in the first few weeks/months, but w/ tons of practice and no-lifing M+ for gear upgrades this level can generally clear Mythic fairly quickly.
Below that it's almost all down to mechanical skill and the ability to keep a guild together and pushing through long enough until you get the kill.
For this conversation in particular it largely comes down to the guild b/c if content is too hard for the playerbase they'll just stop playing...hence the mantra "Never stop recruiting." That's why I've been so insistent on tempering expectations for AoC's raids. If you're Preach (famous M Raider) and you come to this game expecting WoW difficulty raids your going to be disappointed. However, if you come in expecting the chaotic mosh pit that's WoW's open world bosses then you'll likely be fine.
I'm not saying he is not right, I am saying that I didnt say that isnt the case.
As I said above, the guild started the encounter without the gear they would have liked. This is to get practice in on the encounter.
If gear was the only factor, they would have then killed the encounter first pull once the gear was obtained. It is *a* factor, but not the only factor. You could hand the best gear to a raid that has never seen the encounter and it would still take them hundreds of pulls - that is the point I am making.
When we're talking about world first it isn't to get practice, it's a race to see who kills it first and that means going at the boss with whatever gear you can grind between the expansion launch and raid opening.
But we are not talking about world firsts, we are talking about how many pulls guilds would need to spend on content in Ashes if that content were similar to other MMO's that players would have reason to compare Ashes to.
Or did I miss a jump in the discussion?
But just to put some bearings to this discussion at what stage, were these 1%`er raids that are being discussed from WoW available their launch?
Is the expectation here that Ashes has that level at launch?
No, they weren't.
This is a partial valid point. I'm the first to say that an MMO never releases with it's best content.
However, this type of content really cant exist without what essentially amounts to an instance. When WoW released, the pinnacle content was instanced raids, and that has not changed. This same principle can generally be applied to any MMO - the pinnacle content type on day 1 remains the pinnacle content type.
I dont think anyone would expect to see the pinnacle content in Ashes be instance based - and so Intrepid should be doing the responsible thing and making statements in line with the restrictions that places on their content.
Back in the olden days, my guild in FFXI attempted to take on the big boss at the time (Kirin) we fought that sucker for 6 hours (yes you read that right, it was a freaking mess). Our main tank DELEVELED to level 72 (from the max of 75). He lost the ability to wear half his gear halfway through the fight lol and basically had to just kite the boss around, dying over and over.
It was harsh but also gave you that sense of “oh shit I don’t want to die!!” And I feel like you tried harder to stay alive. I also have fond memories of going out as a group the next day in a leveling party to regain what we lost.
I think I’d prefer exp loss than the exp debt/debuffs/gear maintenance/loss of materials they are currently working with. It seems like a lot of penalties when you think about it.
The exp loss in FFXI meant you always had something to do/were constantly working on your character.
Sounds like it made you appreciate your hard work!
But I don't see how the other penalties are very different? You'll still go in a party later to grind off your exp debt. But everyone will also have other options to work on while they wait for the party to gather - like repairing equipment?
You know the saying: variety is the spice of life - I think it totally applies here.
Events such as Caravans, Guild Wars, and Sieges do not have death penalties b/c as Steven says:
If this is their philosophy then all our bickering about the Raids is for nothing b/c it's clear that they should fall under that.
However, there has been no mention of it applying to raids as yet.
Not yet, but since the idea is that the event itself holds a ton of risk I'd imagine it would apply to Raids.
You and I see eye to eye on a lot of the raid discussions so I'm sure you'd agree that it'd be absolutely bonkers if Caravans were considered too risky for a death penalty but open PvP Raids weren't. I'd even extend that to the triggered raids such as a dragon attacking a city. Can you imagine how bad it would be to watch your city crumble as your defenders just have more and more XP debt stacked on?
I don't like that they are excluding exp debt from caravans but I think it's different. They want to encourage people to participate as the real risk for caravans is supposed to be with the people running them.
Your exaggerating a little, your city can't "crumble" from being attacked by a monster, you just lose access to certain services. I welcome the death penalty to city raids as it encourages players to form a group that they think can win instead of trying to zerg down the attacking creature with the help of gaurds.
Castle sieges are open to all levels b/c Intrepid specifically designed it w/ PvE players in mind. Siege weapons and defenses are able to be manned by anyone so that even those of a lower level or are just bad at PvP can make a tangible difference in the outcome of the battle.
Having the death penalty apply when a Dragon attacks the city does the exact opposite of that and can almost instantly lead to a losing spiral as players start to amass XP Debt and lose gear from durability loss...Losing spirals are just bad game design.
Loss is fine, I would even argue that it is good. The highs are better when there are lows.
However, a spiral of loss is what I have been saying for a while will see players leave the game. Leave any game.
Raids are not "objective-based" PvP events.
Monster Coin Events might not have XP Debt.
What?
You did, in-fact, say that gear would not help with the wipe statistics. Don't try to cover your folly.
No.
I said it wouldn't help much. Read whole conversations, not just portions of posts.
Since this whole conversation pertains to Ashes and not WoW (not that this is what has been discussed so far), and in Ashes gear is only supposed to give you a 40 - 50% increase in effectiveness (as opposed to WoW's several hundred percent), the notion of gear mattering in this game is even less of a reality.
Raids in an open world PvP game are the pinnacle of objective based PvP.
There will be more player death in the average top tier encounter raid than there will be in a siege, and the objective of these events is simple - kill the encounter.
You're just making shit up again.
Regardless of who dies, the total XP loss could be increased by 1–2% per group member to balance the mechanic.
Material and resource losses should remain tied exclusively to the individual who dies, only the XP debt would be distributed among the group.
In my view, this approach would encourage the group to prioritize keeping everyone alive, whether someone is playing as a Tank, Healer, or any other role. The idea is that you enter as a group and suffer the losses as a group.
This mechanic would also help prevent situations where one group member falls significantly behind due to repeated XP losses and struggles to catch up.
This on top of the already existing reduction of XP when playing in a group with someone two levels above your own level.