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"Requires X weapon equiped to use this ability."

George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
edited June 2021 in General Discussion
We havent seen much of the weapon gameplay since Apoc and I am very curious if the devs have a plan at this moment for weapons, besides them augmenting archetype/class abilities, as oftenly mentioned with the bleed example when equiped with a dagger.

Will fighters, for example have abilities that require them to equip dual wield in order to perform, let's say "double slash", or "crushing blow" requiring two handed, or "rapid flurry" requiring a rapier?

What is the peoples view on weapon restricted abilities in archetype/classes?

Is the alternative something you are more keen? All abilities being cast regardless what weapon you hold, why a generic animation?
Would you be happy if weapons functioned only as passive boosts plus the norm atk?
Would you be happy if weapons didn't had their own active functions and own animations?


Since Steven and Jeff have said in the past that building animations for every class/weapon is a near impossible task, wouldn't it make sense for classes to have SOME built-in abilities, tied to weapons that might be thematicaly related to the class?
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Comments

  • ConradConrad Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Eh, I hope at the very least dual wield has a lot of animations. The rest can't care less 🤣

    But tbh, I dunno, I trust them that they can make the animations look good for all or at least my fighting style. Like, no anime esque moves but more realistic or semi realistic like Dragon Age Origins did quite well with
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @George Black

    I thought the whole intent behind weapon skill trees was in line with what you are talking about.
    Weapons will have their own progression paths and their own applicable types of skills.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Weapon_progression

    Personally, I like the customization options that comes with weapon ability on weapons and class abilities on the classes. Being able to pick what you want, regardless if it is optimal, is part of player agency.

    There are some things you can only physically do with a bow, but if you know how to cast fireball, you might not need a staff to do it. Just having a bow in hand and casting fireball might make for a weaker fireball, due to the bow not having a stat that enhances spell damage. Unless you crafted it to be that way for some reason.

    That is the sort of stuff I would like to see.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I hope we can spec into two weapon trees. Will be disappointed if we can only spec into the main weapon and just have basic attacks for a swapped weapon.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited June 2021
    Any race/class can use any weapon, so expect us to be able to spend points for multiple weapons.
    The real limitation will be how easy/difficult it is to respec points.

    I think, for the most part, we won't need the actual weapon in order to activate an Archetype ability.
    My Cleric does not need a Hammer for Judgment or a Whip for Castigation or a Spear for Divine Censure.
    I don't think a Tank has to be wielding a Spear for Javelin. I think that will work with any weapon.

    A couple years ago, I was expecting Shield Bash to require having a Shield equipped, but I now doubt that will be the case.
    Seems like Ranger abilities would still be relying on a Bow. Seems strange to be activating Marked Arrow and Knockback Shot with a Dagger...but, we'll have to see. Maybe that's why Ranger wasn't ready for the Alpha One Preview.
  • McShaveMcShave Member
    edited June 2021
    I remember once that someone said that Ashes' combat will be focused around builds. I assume that a player's build will be based on that weapon, as that decides what type of damage and how you deal that damage (paraphrasing of a quote from the late, great, Jeffery Bard). A dagger will require a more nimble character, a sword will be more up-front and face to face, a staff means you cast spells, archers with bows, etc. Steven has said there will be 3 "talent trees" that you can spend points in, weapon skills, character abilities, and passives talents that will have combat effects.

    But to answer the OP's post, there will most likely not be "must use weapon to activate skill", unless it's a weapon skill that you put some points in because you use that weapon.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I mean... people will very likely make builds that synergize their skills.
    I think we know that one of the Dagger Weapon Abilities is a Bleed. Most likely a Rogue will be taking advantage of that rather than a Mage, but we might expect a Shadowcaster and a Nightspell to switch between a Dagger and Staff.

    Any Tank who wants to synergize with a Rogue might use a Dagger in order to stack Bleeds, but a Spellshield might want to sometimes wield a Staff in order to synergize with a Mage.

    Some weapon choices may be more about the group rather than only about one individual character.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited June 2021
    Maybe I should plainly state my concern.
    I am worried that weapons will be treated as stats: "increase bleed", "add slash dmg to some class abilities", "add armor penetration".

    There hasnt been much talk of active weapon abilities.

    Dual wield active ability:
    "Double slash" - animation of ability matches the description. Weapons dont dissapear during animation.

    Deal 1650 dmg
    Cost: 150 mp
    CD: 9s
    For every dagger increase crit rate
    For every sword decrease CD
    For every mace ignore X defence.

    Are people happy with daggers just adding a bleed component to some rogue abilities?
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    As an FFXI player obviously once I hear 'Weapon Skill' I assume an active ability.

    Lately I've been hearing 'Weapon Perk' which makes me share your concern, but not necessarily a lot.

    What I hope for is that every weapon has its own small weapon skill tree, and that you can use that entire Skill Tree (or most of it) as soon as you equip the weapon, and then after settling into it, you can use any required points to raise attributes of Skills, and Perks, of the Weapon you choose to 'main'.

    This would also let you switch weapon, have two or three Upgrades of the skills of your backup weapon, and still have Build specialization without costing a giant pile of whatever Points you need for it.

    The number of skills runs across the same 'problem' as Archetype abilities, so there won't be that many non-repetitions anyway.

    As for the last question, I'm 'sort of' happy with that. For me personally just Bleed and Ignore Defense is enough, I'd take a specific 'stat down' debuff too and aside from that only care about damage. But, again, that's just 'what I'm used to'.

    So I guess where I deviate here is that I do expect a lot of 'Must have X weapon to use X ability', but I am hoping their approach is that the 'pain' of this is simply that you have to redo your hotbar to change your weapon, which I figure is a fair enough compromise (I think I'd be annoyed if people could carry around an inventory full of weapons and swap to literally any of them mid-fight without penalty, that usually leads to meta and balance issues).
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • Azherae wrote: »
    What I hope for is that every weapon has its own small weapon skill tree, and that you can use that entire Skill Tree (or most of it) as soon as you equip the weapon, and then after settling into it, you can use any required points to raise attributes of Skills, and Perks, of the Weapon you choose to 'main'.

    I expect something like you have one weapons tree, but each branch is for the weapons that synergize for your class. Even tho any class can use any weapon, Steven said certain weapon and armor types will have better stats for specific classes.

    I think every weapon having a specific talent tree would be a lot of work if it was a custom tree for each weapon and each class, or the weapon would have a generic tree amongst all classes which would be boring. If you give each class one unique talent tree for weapons, it would not be too much work and also make each class feel unique.
  • CriminalCupcakeCriminalCupcake Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    McShave wrote: »
    (paraphrasing of a quote from the late, great, Jeffery Bard). A dagger will...
    .

    You make Bard leaving sound worse than it actually is lol.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited June 2021
    Back in 2017, Jeff said that Advanced Weapons can have up to 5 Weapon Abilities.
    I'm expecting the Weapon Ability section to include all weapon categories.
    I think we can expect Daggers to have other effects besides just a Bleed. I think each weapon will have ability branches that you can place points into.

    Too much work is only really a thing if the design does not already include each weapon having several branches on the skill tree.

    But, we shall have to see.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Maybe I should plainly state my concern.
    I am worried that weapons will be treated as stats: "increase bleed", "add slash dmg to some class abilities", "add armor penetration".

    I hope that some weapons add more then just damage. Having weapon abilities (bleeds and such) I think adds depth. Especially if they have an offset cost. Gain a 3-5 second bleed but lose something else stat debuff or something.

    There hasnt been much talk of active weapon abilities.

    Ya really interested in what their intent is on this and the skill trees and how we can synergize the effect between character build and weapons equiped.

    Are people happy with daggers just adding a bleed component to some rogue abilities?

    I really hope they stay as far away from how weapons work in GW2 as possible. Where equipping weapons completely changes everything and leveling up you weapon skill opens up new skills. (this was hyper annoying to me)
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • SathragoSathrago Member
    edited June 2021
    Maybe I should plainly state my concern.
    I am worried that weapons will be treated as stats: "increase bleed", "add slash dmg to some class abilities", "add armor penetration".

    I hope that some weapons add more then just damage. Having weapon abilities (bleeds and such) I think adds depth. Especially if they have an offset cost. Gain a 3-5 second bleed but lose something else stat debuff or something.

    There hasnt been much talk of active weapon abilities.

    Ya really interested in what their intent is on this and the skill trees and how we can synergize the effect between character build and weapons equiped.

    Are people happy with daggers just adding a bleed component to some rogue abilities?

    I really hope they stay as far away from how weapons work in GW2 as possible. Where equipping weapons completely changes everything and leveling up you weapon skill opens up new skills. (this was hyper annoying to me)

    Agreed. I have never been a fan of games with this mechanic. Especially ESO. Oh look the ninja weeb tabaxi just snuck up and cleaved my arm off with his 2h sword, I blow him up with some magic and he runs off switching to a healing staff to stay alive. That craps lame af.
    5000x1000px_Sathrago_Commission_RavenJuu.jpg?ex=661327bf&is=6600b2bf&hm=e6652ad4fec65a6fe03abd2e8111482acb29206799f1a336b09f703d4ff33c8b&
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • MaphMaph Member
    I really like Guild Wars 2 system where your weapons really dictated your build/the abilities you had access to.

    I'm not necessarily hoping for AoC to be THAT tied to weapon choice, but having some things locked out unless you're wielding certain weapons could help to give each weapon choice it's own niche.

    Maybe the Weapon Master (Fighter/Fighter) would be able to use weapon skills from weapons he's not currently wielding, or something like that.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited June 2021
    Maph wrote: »
    I really like Guild Wars 2 system where your weapons really dictated your build/the abilities you had access to.

    I'm not necessarily hoping for AoC to be THAT tied to weapon choice, but having some things locked out unless you're wielding certain weapons could help to give each weapon choice it's own niche.

    Maybe the Weapon Master (Fighter/Fighter) would be able to use weapon skills from weapons he's not currently wielding, or something like that.

    This. If you are a fighter using "Crushing blow", let's say, you shouldnt use a rapier or even a sword to perform the task.
    Unless people are ok with going the AA way, where warriors summoner giant magical yellow hammers from the sky to stun.
  • McShave wrote: »
    (paraphrasing of a quote from the late, great, Jeffery Bard). A dagger will...
    .

    You make Bard leaving sound worse than it actually is lol.

    Ya, it was a joke where I try to sound like Jeffery Bard had passed away. I was going to go on a bit more with the joke, but I thought that was enough lol
  • I'd prefer the GW2 approach over the wow "stats stick" approach any-day though.

    imo Ashes doesn't have to be like GW2 in which changing a weapon "changes everything", and "in-combat weapon-swap" could probably use some limitations to keep things realistic.

    But I definitely want to see a meaningful difference between weapon types. As a melee why should I use a rapier over a sword? how about katanas? And as a ranger how do bows and crossbows differ?

    It all boils down to "an opportunity for players to make meaningful choices" (and weapon type should probably be one of the most important choices), instead of just "picking the one with highest dps".
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    If you are a fighter using "Crushing blow", let's say, you shouldnt use a rapier or even a sword to perform the task.
    Unless people are ok with going the AA way, where warriors summoner giant magical yellow hammers from the sky to stun.
    My Cleric summons a yellow hammer for Judgement, a yellow whip for Castigation and a yellow spear for Divine Censure.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited June 2021
    Dygz wrote: »
    If you are a fighter using "Crushing blow", let's say, you shouldnt use a rapier or even a sword to perform the task.
    Unless people are ok with going the AA way, where warriors summoner giant magical yellow hammers from the sky to stun.
    My Cleric summons a yellow hammer for Judgement, a yellow whip for Castigation and a yellow spear for Divine Censure.

    My fighter isnt a cleric now is he?
    None of that divine stuff, you know?
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    We will have to see what Fighters summon. I bet they will be able to summon some blades.
  • MaphMaph Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    If you are a fighter using "Crushing blow", let's say, you shouldnt use a rapier or even a sword to perform the task.
    Unless people are ok with going the AA way, where warriors summoner giant magical yellow hammers from the sky to stun.
    My Cleric summons a yellow hammer for Judgement, a yellow whip for Castigation and a yellow spear for Divine Censure.

    My fighter isnt a cleric now is he?
    None of that divine stuff, you know?

    But he COULD be!
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited June 2021
    Dygz wrote: »
    We will have to see what Fighters summon. I bet they will be able to summon some blades.

    What the fuck?
    Why summon anything? What does magoc have to do with the fighter archetype?
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited June 2021
    Because it's Ashes...and that appears to be the trend.
    Tank also has a magic bar, rather than a stamina bar.
    Seems likely Fighter will also have a magic bar, rather than a stamina bar.
    But... we shall see.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Many games have only mp. What does that have to do with anything?
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Means it's likely some of a Fighter's abilities are likely to be magical rather than all of them being Physical.
    The Tank is one of the 4 Physical Primary Archetypes - they summon magical shields.
    Tank's Shockwave is magical.
    So, it appears to be that even the Physical Primary Archetypes, including Fighter, will summon some magical weapons.
    But... we shall have to see.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Dygz wrote: »
    Means it's likely some of a Fighter's abilities are likely to be magical rather than all of them being Physical.
    The Tank is one of the 4 Physical Primary Archetypes - they summon magical shields.
    Tank's Shockwave is magical.
    So, it appears to be that even the Physical Primary Archetypes, including Fighter, will summon some magical weapons.
    But... we shall have to see.

    And you think that's better, than actually having animations for weapon usage?
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Neither better nor worse.
    Verra is a High Fantasy/High Magic world.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Man, in a thread discussing concerns about weapon abilities, functions and animations, if your contribution is "since the divine powered cleric can summon magical spears and chains, so should the fighters abilities look magical, due to Mana", then you are very out of touch.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Dygz wrote: »
    Neither better nor worse.
    Verra is a High Fantasy/High Magic world.

    Oh great. Good conclusion. "Everything goes". So what's the point of any discussion concerning specific topics?
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited June 2021
    LMAO
    You came in here saying: "If you are a fighter using "Crushing blow", let's say, you shouldnt use a rapier or even a sword to perform the task."
    And I responded: "My Cleric summons a yellow hammer for Judgement, a yellow whip for Castigation and a yellow spear for Divine Censure."
    "Tank is one of the 4 Physical Primary Archetypes - they summon magical shields."
    We can expect that Fighters will also summon magical weapons - likely blades.
    You keep asking me about it so I keep answering you.
    Has nothing to do with what should happen. It's what will likely happen based on what we've seen so far.
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