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Auto Attacks

LachesisLachesis Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
My biggest problem with combat currently is that melee auto attacks make you take large steps forward and I can easily see that causing major problems for lots of people. I think it would be much better if we were just forced to stay stationary instead of being forced to move
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Comments

  • ApokApok Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Me : Great Mace (level 5)
    Enemy : Gibbering Maw

    Issue is as my character moves forward with Q (basic attack) the animation takes so long compared to the Maw that as we push into each other my attacks become canceled and can only hit, if I by chance finish my combo.

    The final animation locks me in place from doing a smash attack then I land a hit other ones you just see nothing happening and your attacks are quickly canceled

    Possible solutions may include toning down how much your character lunges forward with slower weapons and maybe reduces how hard enemies push into you.
  • YeeHawGameRanchYeeHawGameRanch Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    After playing for a couple of days, Here are some things that Stand out immediately to me as issues from more of a combat design POV:

    The melee attack animation locks your whole body. I get that locking you into an animation makes combat feel more heavy and impactful, but I personally believe locking the legs as part of that animation is detrimental to the game. Perhaps being able to strafe while attacking but at a slower speed than walking might work. Also the whole lunging your character forward when you melee attack is awful.

    The lines at the corner of your screen while sprinting. I like that the FOV zooms out while sprinting, and I think that makes sprinting feel fast, but the lines are an unnecessary addition to that.

    This one is the most important feedback, please allow sprinting while in combat. I am not a fan at all of not being able to sprint until your character sheathes his weapon because he is out of combat.

    The action combat crosshair mode needs some tuning. I like the idea of the action combat mode but I think either one of two things needs to be added to it... either the radius around the crosshair where it registers as being pointed at an enemy needs to be increased... or you need to be able to still cast tab target spells when the crosshair isn't registering any enemies. I assume the former is more viable since using tab abilities with no targeted enemy defeats the purpose. I just find about 70% of the time I'm using the crosshair, it doesn't register that I'm looking at an enemy. obviously this is pre-alpha, but I'm just pointing that out.
  • LieutenantToastLieutenantToast Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2021
    Merged together a few similar threads here for folks to share more of their thoughts on combat (and in particular, forward momentum). Keep chattin'! <3
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  • VarkunVarkun Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    The lunge you do when auto attacking feels terrible, the number of times I would seem to slip off target in action combat mode and lunge past my opponent became truly annoying. The amount of times I would kill an opponent then do 2 or 3 more auto attacks and skip into agro range of another mob I truly lost count of.

    As someone who loves to play melee and intends to main a tank the whole lunge on auto attack does not feel good and as a tank I do not constantly want to be repositioning because and animation locks me in to lunging forward.
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    Never write a check with your mouth you can't cash with your ass!.
  • BalinBalin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I kinda like the lunge. Gives the feeling that you have momentum when you strike. As long as your charachter is directed towards the center of your enemy you'll stay in place.
  • MayhemMayhem Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2021
    I'll post my thoughts on combat here. (I play action mode only)
    Agree the forward momentum on melee feels bad, iirc it was said on a livestream a while back that there is a change coming to melee attacks sometime in the future, so you will be able to atleast strafe. Imo the forward momentum should be completely removed and you should be able to move to any direction at the same speed as a mage shooting a wand.

    + I should be able to use abilities if i'm holding down left mouse, used to be able to do this a few patches ago and it felt ALOT better than the current hold mouse for a sec, let go, press ability, start holding mouse down again, let go, press ability - repeat. (This also makes hitting enemies with abilities a pain)

    ++ i'd like to see actual projectiles in action mode instead of this weird auto homing mouseover with a crosshair type of deal. Like wand shooting in the direction you are aiming and not automatically hitting the target after you mouseover and hold down left click. Also abilities like mage fireball, tank charge, cleric javelin and judgement should go in a straight line to where you are aiming.

    +++ Weapon combo should not reset if you use an ability while holding down left click, only if you let go. I think this would be more interesting and useful to bait abilities/cc breaks if later hits did more dmg.

    ++++ Please have a charge bar for bows so i can hold left click for big dmg or let go earler for more sustain dps :blush:

    +++++ Need nameplates (healthbar) to show above player/mob under name and guild + options
    Show Player Nameplates (all players except yourself)
    Show Enemy Player Nameplates
    Show Enemy NPC Nameplates
    Show Party Nameplates
    Show Raid Nameplates
    Also show mana of targeted player under hp bar in top middle and target of target
  • CvrCvr Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    In regards to the auto attacks:
    I experimented with a lot of the weapons, animations look good, and cleave arc when melee, felt decent, even though some of the animations suggested wider arcs.

    Disliked the forward movement when performing the attack animations, especially if you were attacking more than one target at a time, often caused you need to reposition, so you hit all of them, could see it could cause issues for tanking enemies in place, in some situations.
    Wand/Tome felt good, with slow player controlled movement available during the animations, you could still position yourself where you wanted.

  • NyxxaNyxxa Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    The forward momentum is annoying, I think we all agree on that. I do, however, think it could be still be used. If the standard attack was instead made stationary and the momentum attacks made directional upon the use of you directional keys.

    For example: When using "W + Q (or click)" It would use the forward momentum animation. Where as only using "Q" would cause a standard no directional movement attack animation. Then new animations could be added for "A + Q" "D + Q" "S + Q" adding sideways and backwards attack animation.

    Not only would this add a wider and more controlled range of movement, but it will feel more like the basics of usual action games, as well as being more realistic after all, people do have fight walking backwards sometimes. Such is seen in many of movies when one is losing ground against another. In realistic circumstances anyway, I would only step forward in an attack when I saw a way through to the attackers defense, others wise I would stay out of range of their blade so I would not be hit. That would likely need a lot of movement just like you typically see in a boxing ring today.

    Please try this Intrepid! Thank you! <3
    Nyxxa Novella
  • VanqorVanqor Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Some thoughts on the auto attack and how to improve it:
    1. We can do without the forward momentum (root animation). However, if you want to keep it my suggestions are 1) to only do it while moving forward and, perhaps, standing still, but not when moving back or sideways (like SOLO does it), and 2) reduce it's duration and/or the distance traversed
    2. IMO there are too many swings in a "combo". I'd prefer at least that one mouse click/Q equals 1 swing of the weapon. All the time you see people auto attacking the air several times after a mob has died because of this. The action of my character doesn't feel responsive to my input, and leads to spamming or holding Q. This, together with root animation, creates a..wonky and unsatisfying feeling, especially highlighted at the end of combat.
    3. Need (a little) more VFX/sound/something when hitting a mob, to make it feels like it actually hurts

    Other than that, the recent changes you made on the auto attack were good and a step in the right direction.
  • MalapapasMalapapas Member, Alpha One, Adventurer, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2021
    As this was my first play through of Alpha testing and I chose to go Tank the OP's issue was a big one for me as well. Often I would find myself attacking past the mob because the movement is just too large. The only way to not move is if you stood right in front of the mob and let collision prevent you from doing this. The alternative should be if you land any hits it should stop you from moving at that point regardless of collision area. Also, if they can reduce the distance you move by at least 50% that would be great as well.
  • PreparedPrepared Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Malapapas wrote: »
    As this was my first play through of Alpha testing and I chose to go Tank the OP's issue was a big one for me as well. Often I would find myself attacking past the mob because the movement is just too large. The only way to not move is if you stood right in front of the mob and let collision prevent you from doing this. The alternative should be if you land any hits it should stop you from moving at that point regardless of collision area. Also, if they can reduce the distance you move by at least 50% that would be great as well.

    I agree with every word you said. However the best scenario to me would be to use the mechanic of the #1 MMORPG. If a system works and most people are happy with it, why try to re-invent and have to spend many hours adjusting it? I personally do not like the current lunge forward at all with the Q attack. Not a bit. But any suggestion to improve on the system if it's going to stay is worth entertaining. Ideally scrapping the entire lunge would be best if it can be done without damaging other areas of the game. I didn't get enough time in the game this weekend to fully understand all aspects of the combat system but noticing that lunge right at the beginning was an instant turn off for me.
  • Double Decker DylanDouble Decker Dylan Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2021
    Highly agree on the sprint effect. It needs to be toggled, I do not like the wavering white lines that surround my character when sprinting.
  • Dr3amerADr3amerA Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    The problem i had with combat was the fact that melee weapon attacks move you forward.
    When using melee weapon your character moves closer and closer to target NPC but when you are too close your opponent isn't inside the arc of your skill (although target is in front of you) making you need to step back a little to cast the skill. I noticed this mostly with the Cleric skills. Also moves you past your target making you adjust your position.

    Using wand and spellbook i can move backwards while using the weapon attack but not when using melee weapon. If i use melee weapon i have to decide if i want to escape or fight. I can't move backwards while attacking as it moves me forward and defeats the purpose.
    As i see it ranged weapons seem to have a clear advantage. I would assume all weapons need the same mechanic in order to be balanced.

    Loved the animations for halberd and spear weapon attacks.
  • ShrillsShrills Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Feedback ~ I think keeping AA the way it is while any movement key is pressed work fine, and provides the playing the "weight of attack" they are looking for. Can also reserve it for Z action mode.

    However, I think removing it while the player stands still is needed. Currently there are issues of moving past the target just from AA, resulting in queued skills becoming unusable/missed. Additionally while attacking larger mobs like the Dragons, melee often found themselves auto attacking into bad AOE on the ground.

    Having to stop attacking so your character doesn't suicide itself into fire is a real feelsbadman.
  • Uncommon SenseUncommon Sense Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I would prefer if they added the perception of attack "weight" as a wind up not the current full animation lock with forward movement. rather than lunge swing/lunge swing/lunge swing repeat cycle.

    as an alternative example
    have fast light attack (combo initiate), medium arc/cleave attack and heavy kitting slow attack....no movement but a definite stance shift. This will also give a better pvp experience as countering a combo hit for damage mitigation now becomes more engaging....Also allow more augmentation possibilities...

    As it currently is in Aplha the walk forward animation Q attack is ass. I will probably not play/use melee weapons as a result if it persists

    However it is infidelity better that the Quick time hit (q) event they were proposing a while back that was thankfully scrapped.

  • MoodyMoody Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Ill keep it simple. :) for me, World of Warcraft style combat. Its fluid and it works. no cleave attacks, tab targeting mobs tank actually has to work to hold aggro on multiple mobs rather than this current system. ( please don't kill me for mentioning Warcraft here)
  • Uncommon SenseUncommon Sense Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    GW2 has far superior combat dynamics than WoW. I agree cleaves should be toned down. But that's is the side effect/compromise of "Action Combat" Splashy AOE to mitigate Single target Tab. If Intrepid can't lock down the Hybrid system desires then it will revert to a Tab system. The problem with Tab is it makes ranged attacks so boring compared to melee. having to actually aim is such a engagement shift that makes Tab system feel dumb.

    Digression. the Auto/Basic attack system needs attention I would like to be able toggle (Auto) Sometimes i just want to mope around doing menial tasks in the world without having to fully commit to my keybinds...

    The forced movement animation lock has to go...It's not fun and does not create the illusion of"weight" but a frustration and hindrance.
  • KusaijshiKusaijshi Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I testet Combat for Melee (Warrior) and range Fighters (Mage) and i think the system should be the same.
    After you got CDs on your spells The Q spell feels extrem cluncy and static with the warrior and Abolutly not good.
    if the mob steps a bit aside you auto run past him and need to realocate yourself what always has Delays in it because you first need to finish the attack animation.you should be able to move your char as you want with WASD and mouse while attacking with the Q spell

    The mage on the other hand can run completle Free around.sideways back and forward. this feels so super great and makes much more fun.


    This system with the static animation will be a problem for melees in PVP too. if you are close to the mage and finally caught him he can just sidestep your Q spells (if they will be cast endgame i dont know) and you will walk past him need to turn yourself (because the melee char automaticle moved forward while attacking ....) and try to catch up to the mage who is running backwards whiile casting/spamming Q.

    the system should be the same for all classes otherwhise people will not play class xy because they just feel completly static while others are total free.
  • MrPocketsMrPockets Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I agree with this. I've been putting in hours into melee combat and it feel mostly fine when you are face tanking a single mob.

    But as soon as you are fighting more than 1 mob, the auto attacks feel pretty bad, and like you have no control.

    Luckily, I think this has a pretty simple fix: Don't make the auto attacks move your character. Just make it so that you move more slowly while auto attacking, but you are still able to move freely.

    TLDR: Learn from the 3rd person MOBA called Smite - the melee auto attacks in that game feel pretty good, but could still be improved on.
  • LieutenantToastLieutenantToast Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Merging in another thread here as well <3
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  • IzilIzil Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2021
    About the lunge; It would be better to let us move where we want while attacking without the lunge as many in this thread suggests.

    I know a lot of people dont like guild wars 2, but this is regarding fluid melee combat + movement and you cant deny gw2 succeeds with that.

    GW2 also delivers the quality of melee with their diverse animations very well. No offense, but in Ashes the weapon animations tend to be very repetitive after a whilewith the same patern over and over, but im no gamedev and this is probably because of GW2s auto attack animations vs AoC action combat input.

    Honestly there are auto attacks in every mainstream MMORPG and the majority wouldnt mind auto attacks at all with new animations to spice up the melee - it would help tremendously visually aswel. PS: Not a fan of the weapon effects; golden particles/dust in melee, looks like fairy dust or your waving a firework sparkler lol.
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  • [quote="Cvr;c-303334"

    Disliked the forward movement when performing the attack animations, especially if you were attacking more than one target at a time, often caused you need to reposition, so you hit all of them, could see it could cause issues for tanking enemies in place, in some situations.
    Wand/Tome felt good, with slow player controlled movement available during the animations, you could still position yourself where you wanted.

    [/quote]

    I agree 100% In combat it feels like I am being shoved forward , it is just kind of weird. If I press the S key a lot I can kind of stand where I want. But I was thinking that is an odd work around. I also dislike that I can't do other things like chop a tree till several seconds after the combat is over.
  • Samcro101Samcro101 Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    The auto attack lunge has to go.
  • DaaveDaave Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Being able to turn and strafe while auto-attacking is pretty crucial to making melee combat feel nice and fluid IMO. Animation locks/lunges have their place for specific skills, but not for a basic auto attack
  • HillefuegoHillefuego Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Auto attacks are basically filler damage, where your abilities are the things you have to manage to optimize your damage. In WoW their style makes sense as there are so many abilities, having to press a fillter ability for auto attacks would be chaotic. In GW2 you have a smaller ability pool so having the WoW auto attacks wouldn't make as much sense since combat would have gaps of inactivity. So they have an auto attack that you have to activate and with that fills that gap.

    In either case I think we all agree that abilities outside of casting should not root the player.

    Personally I prefer having a lot of abilities and just have the filler attack (autoattack) go automatically so I can focus on managing important abilities (like CC's in PVP). I understand this isn't optimal for Ashes with the amount of abilities and would probably go for a GW2 like version where auto attacks are filler attacks with some sort of utility (bleeds or other debuffs on succession attacks). To not make the auto attacks feel lackluster, you also make them so that they set up for bonusses from comboing into other abilities. For example, three auto attacks add poison stacks and X amount of stacks makes another ability stun. Or auto attacks expose armor and after a certain amount you can apply a bleed. This would make auto attacks feel like a filler and more like an integral part of the class. Another example (I like thinking about this) would be for mages where a certain amount of wand attacks make a target combustable, and a lightning attack would cause an explosion around the target etc. You can even make it part of the skill system where you can choose which effect is applied to you auto attack.
  • GraymoreGraymore Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think the "q" button should be left click by default in combat for auto attack and it should go to one of two extremes.
    1. Initiate automatically when an attack is initiated
    2. Each click should be 1 attack with no movement associated with the attack.
  • FisherFisher Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    "Auto" attacks are not auto. The fact I have to hold it down is needlessly tiresome for my fingers. Just make it a toggle. Prioritize abilities I press over the swing and otherwise let my character wail away. If it's going to be automatic by holding it down, anyway, what harm is there?

    Animations are way too fast to really be appreciated. It'd feel much better if my mace had some weight to it and did more damage per swing instead of the anime-esque thousand swings a second crap.

    Lunging forward (and preventing all other motion) is objectively terrible. Anyone defending it is wrong. There's a reason everyone loves wands right now. It's because it's the only weapon that feels good to use in combat.
  • RockHoundRockHound Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    i hate auto attack... I think you should have to click for every hit. I honestly realy like the way that ESO did it with left click for light attack, hold left to charge up heavy attack, right click to actively block... I too agree... the lunge needs to go
  • MrPocketsMrPockets Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    rohkai wrote: »
    i hate auto attack... I think you should have to click for every hit. I honestly realy like the way that ESO did it with left click for light attack, hold left to charge up heavy attack, right click to actively block... I too agree... the lunge needs to go

    It was like this a couple months ago, the player feedback was that it was WAY too much clicking, since the animations were so fast. People's fingers/wrists were not having a good time. =]
  • KreedKreed Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    rohkai wrote: »
    i hate auto attack... I think you should have to click for every hit. I honestly realy like the way that ESO did it with left click for light attack, hold left to charge up heavy attack, right click to actively block... I too agree... the lunge needs to go

    Yeah I agree on that, I found that I was trying to do that while playing using the auto attack.

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