Modern day laziness.
In Star Wars Galaxies, when we wanted to leave a planet, you had to use a ship at a special port.
This ship originally was once every 30 min.
Becoming a Jedi took between 6 month´s to a full year IRL time.
Time is the one thing needed to expand a game beyond a mobile mentality of " click and achievement ".
I would argue that the line between "click and achieve" and "this takes way too long to balance life and gaming" is much bigger than you seem to suggest.
I'm torn between both sides of this argument. I want a way to not get stuck 45 minutes from being able to log out of the game but I also would HATE for players to simply hearth home after a raid and not have any risk on the return travel. With current direction, my option is to simply log out where I am and have to hoof it back alone later.
At what point do we/they realize that the game should still be fun to play. A good life is about give and take from all parties involved. Games are no different.
A simple log out system that allows you to safely log out where you are, problem solved.
That creates another problem though.
You see people coming to attack you for all your loot? Just log out and wait them out.
This new issue is then solved by a logout timer, where even if you force-close your character persists in the world for that timer, but then you run into complaints of people who logged out stress-free with no perceived danger, so they skipped the countdown, and then they maybe die to some mob that wandered too close after they closed the game or some player who just came over the nearby hill and sees them before the character disappears.
That being said, the latter is still preferable
I would say the former is preferable.
Put a 10 secoand countdown time for logging out, but make that countdown viable for everyone.
If you are attacked before the timer runs out, you aren't logging out.
That way, you cant just log out on someone if you perceive danger
I don't think you understood my post at all, which is normal coming from you lol
You actually just entirely agreed with me.
All I was saying is that if you alt+f4 before that timer runs out your character should still persist.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
In one of the early streams they addressed being discontinued or force logging yourself out and pretty sure they said you will stay in the world 15-30 seconds to prevent this sort of thing. It was in a Q&A.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
I don't much care which who I agree or disagree with - with the exception of about 5 posters, I don't even pay attention to who I am replying to.
However, based on your response here, I assume we have been involved in discussions before, and I assume your posts have been left as ambiguous as the one above.
The point I was making is that all of the issues in regards to logging out were solved over 20 years ago. There is no need to go over any of it again.
You can camp out any time, any where, but you have a timer that all can see. If you disconnect from the server in any way, you persist in game for a period of time (this can be a time that is dictated by a technical necessity, or by game design - it does not matter which).
Games have been doing this for over two decades now, it is not new.
I would also rather have a recall stone with a 72 hour cooldown to a divine gate of your choice which won't work if you're carrying any gatherables than having the family system teleport.
I would also rather have a recall stone with a 72 hour cooldown to a divine gate of your choice which won't work if you're carrying any gatherables than having the family system teleport.
This is an idea I could personally get behind.
Drop the family summons, and instead allow the head of a family to designate a single divine gate. Then give everyone in a family of appropriate level a call back to that gate, with a very long (several days) cooldown. Keep all restrictions in terms of not being able to carry gathered materials or certs on you (automatically drops all such items on the ground), and I have far less of an issue with this than I do with the current proposal for a family summons, and it also doubles as a get-out-of-trouble ability - but a get-out-of-trouble ability whereby you drop all gathered materials or certs that you have on you anyway.
In terms of issues I have with the family summons, the potential for being able to assemble a large force anywhere in the world is greatly diminished. You are not able to gather a large force (admittedly even easier) at only one of five specific, unmoving locations in the world. I see far fewer ways to exploit this, and circumventing those fewer ways would be far easier from a players perspective.
If you are attacked before the timer runs out, you aren't logging out.
Ugh, I always hated this. The game shouldn't get to decide when I log out or not. If I've decided that I'm playing until a certain time and then that time hits, I log out. If another player or creature randomly decides to attack me during that time, my decision to log out shouldn't be affected. If they want to try and take me down during that 10secs window, then fine. Go for it. But, if they can't, then I'm logged out and gone.
If you are attacked before the timer runs out, you aren't logging out.
Ugh, I always hated this. The game shouldn't get to decide when I log out or not. If I've decided that I'm playing until a certain time and then that time hits, I log out. If another player or creature randomly decides to attack me during that time, my decision to log out shouldn't be affected. If they want to try and take me down during that 10secs window, then fine. Go for it. But, if they can't, then I'm logged out and gone.
I don't think I have disagreed with you in a while, Davey. I understand the spirit of your complaint, but it is so easy to abuse rapid log out that I don't think I can ever get behind it. Even an old PvE only game like FFXI had a 30-second log out timer to prevent possible abuse.
I would never play a game with open world PvP where my target could just log out to get away from me instantly. They should have to be able to hide from danger for at least 30 seconds uninterrupted to escape an online world.
I think it would take some considerable counterpoints to change my mind here.
I would never play a game with open world PvP where my target could just log out to get away from me instantly. They should have to be able to hide from danger for at least 30 seconds uninterrupted to escape an online world.
I could get behind that. But, if you've already activated your logout timer, you shouldn't be brought out of it cos something's targeted you. It should be up to whatever's decided to attack you after you've begun the logout process to bring you down within that time.
I could get behind that. But, if you've already activated your logout timer, you shouldn't be brought out of it cos something's targeted you. It should be up to whatever's decided to attack you after you've begun the logout process to bring you down within that time.
Let's split the difference then...
60-second log out time.
The first 30 seconds is interruptible due to you needing to find safety and hide.
The last 30-seconds is an uninterruptible an animation of you waving goodbye to any would be attackers that just caught up to you as you slowly fade out of existence with a smile on your face. You would be invincible during the last 30 seconds and could shut the client down safely at anytime.
60-second log out time.
The first 30 seconds is interruptible due to you needing to find safety and hide.
The last 30-seconds is an uninterruptible an animation of you waving goodbye to any would be attackers that just caught up to you as you slowly fade out of existence with a smile on your face. You would be invincible during the last 30 seconds and could shut the client down safely at anytime.
Good?
Hahaha, I love the addition of a wavey emote. Something about waveyness just seems to feel right.....
If I'm under attack, I shouldn't be able to log out. I'm perfectly fine with that. Resolving any active combat first makes sense.
If I'm not under attack, though, or if I've managed to hide for long enough, I shouldn't be prevented from logging out. I just don't see any benefit to having a player click the logout button, waiting 8 of the 10secs to log out, and then be interrupted by something, when all they want to do is to go to bed, pick the kids up from school, get back to work after a lunch break, etc.
If Player A is in a spot where they're not under attack and are in a game-legal position for logging out (i.e., not flying, etc), then why should Player B get to decide whether or not Player A's already existing logout request is completed?
If Player A is in a spot where they're not under attack and are in a game-legal position for logging out (i.e., not flying, etc), then why should Player B get to decide whether or not Player A's already existing logout request is completed?
If player A had a hard out at a set time, then they should have a good idea of how long it might take to get back to town or "safeish" area and plan accordingly. To me, this is just being responsible. If you were in a raid or something, maybe ask your guild mates to take your spoils back to town for you or protect you while you log? There are options for hard outs.
If there is like a fire in the house or something, and you need to quickly get out of the game, then I don't think there is anything that should be done game side. Such events are so random that I don't think game designers can really make fair contengency for them. Sometimes single player games don't even have a quick way to get out these days.
I have lost progress on single player saves due to storms so many times in my life. It storms a lot where I live though.
My impression is that the solution's going to be either ...
a. A short, but interruptible timer. e.g. start logout -> you freeze in place for 20s -> if nothing hits you during that time you're gone, otherwise logout's cancelled. Now fight to secure your safe logout spot.
b. A long, but uninterruptible timer. e.g. start logout -> you freeze in place for 60s -> if whatever's hitting you can't kill you within 60s, your logout completes, otherwise you just ... die?
It's about about finding the balance between ...
1. Preventing players from simply "pulling the plug" when things go sour and escape death penalty.
2. Placing a burden of "finding a safe place to logout" and "plan your trip/adventure" on the player.
3. Player autonomy (when to logout).
If Player A is in a spot where they're not under attack and are in a game-legal position for logging out (i.e., not flying, etc), then why should Player B get to decide whether or not Player A's already existing logout request is completed?
If player A had a hard out at a set time, then they should have a good idea of how long it might take to get back to town or "safeish" area and plan accordingly. To me, this is just being responsible. If you were in a raid or something, maybe ask your guild mates to take your spoils back to town for you or protect you while you log? There are options for hard outs.
You can be attacked in a town or "safeish" area. As far as i remember, it's only non-sieged freeholds and in-town player stalls where you're guaranteed safety. I can't see people wanting to spend 20mins riding back there every time they want to log out.
And, if there was a fire in my house, I wouldn't be thinking about logging out... lol
If you are attacked before the timer runs out, you aren't logging out.
Ugh, I always hated this.
There has always been two ways to get out of a game.
The first is to camp. Traditionally, this required you to be uninterrupted. You wait in game (often sitting) for a set period of time, and if you are not attacked in that time frame then you leave the game.
The second is to go linkdead (either accidently or on purpose). This can be achieved by your connection to the server going down, or by force exiting the game. Some game even have a force exit to character select that will do this. This method will always leave your character in the game for a short while after you have ceased to have control of it, and so has some risk associated with it.
Players that just want to get out of the game can just exist. There is a small amount of risk involved there, but you do just leave the game
Those that don't want that risk can simply find somewhere safe-ish and camp.
To me, the optimal times would be 10 - 15 seconds for camping, or your character being left in the game world for around 30 seconds by just exiting.
Being in control of a caravan or ship would alter all of this - you wouldn't be able to camp at all, and you would likely be in the game for several minutes (perhaps as long as 5 minutes) if your connection to the server is terminated.
I heard through some of the discord channels that people were already abusing hard shut downs during pvp battles. The general feedback seemed to be some sort of camping like mentioned will be implemented.
I'm fine with that, but I also agree with @daveywavey. Whether it's planned or not if I've need to log and I can't, that doesn't feel like risk versus reward, it feels like punishment. In a dungeon or other high stakes area there may be very limited safe zones. I've also noticed people in alpha "stuck" in dungeons because they can't get to safety. That won't be fun for anyone.
Just out of curiosity, what are the major problems with the family summon? I thought the idea was 8 players could group up somewhere to play together. I guess it violates the idea of no fast travel, but I'm curious where the potential pain points would be? Seems to me like a genuine quality of life way to group up with your friends if you start playing at different times of day?
Just out of curiosity, what are the major problems with the family summon? I thought the idea was 8 players could group up somewhere to play together. I guess it violates the idea of no fast travel, but I'm curious where the potential pain points would be? Seems to me like a genuine quality of life way to group up with your friends if you start playing at different times of day?
To put is short "Abuse". Such a system opens the gates for all sorts of coordinated ways to move coordinated groups around the open world. A number of ways the system could be abused have been laid out on the forums and even YouTube over the years. Some more complex than the others.
The main common theme is that "Family Summons" was designed, so small groups of friends can play together, but there is no way to stop large groups of competitive players from abusing the system.
Just out of curiosity, what are the major problems with the family summon? I thought the idea was 8 players could group up somewhere to play together. I guess it violates the idea of no fast travel, but I'm curious where the potential pain points would be? Seems to me like a genuine quality of life way to group up with your friends if you start playing at different times of day?
Here's an example. A full party of 8 people are doing a dungeon, and another party comes and is looking for a fight. If everyone in the original party is in a different family, and they each summon one person, now it's 16 vs 8. Adding any sort of summons like this will lead to unfair situations, no matter how hard they try to balance it.
Just out of curiosity, what are the major problems with the family summon? I thought the idea was 8 players could group up somewhere to play together. I guess it violates the idea of no fast travel, but I'm curious where the potential pain points would be? Seems to me like a genuine quality of life way to group up with your friends if you start playing at different times of day?
Here's an example. A full party of 8 people are doing a dungeon, and another party comes and is looking for a fight. If everyone in the original party is in a different family, and they each summon one person, now it's 16 vs 8. Adding any sort of summons like this will lead to unfair situations, no matter how hard they try to balance it.
It's even worse than that, they can summon 7 people each. So if the entire group has 7 extra family members you just turned an 8v8 into a one sided slaughter.
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It's easy to come up with paranoid, sky-is-falling scenarios before testing the feature.
Since Steven wants to prevent zergs of this type, we can be sure that Family Summons will not allow such a one-sided fight to be possible.
Family Summons will be tested. And if it allows zergs, Steven will not include it for Launch.
I see what you're saying, and that would definitely be a drag, but without testing I think it will be tough to tell if it's really unbalancing. I'll also mention if the issue is adding people to fights that not much different that just calling your friends, guild, or whatever. I'm with @Dygz on this one.
I see what you're saying, and that would definitely be a drag, but without testing I think it will be tough to tell if it's really unbalancing. I'll also mention if the issue is adding people to fights that not much different that just calling your friends, guild, or whatever. I'm with Dygz on this one.
The problem with just seeing how it tests is that test environments aren't competitive.
You cant test out how people will abuse a system in a competitive environment, unless you are in a competitive environment. Since both alpha and beta are temporary, people dont get even close to as competitive (or as organized) as they do in a released MMO.
So, the smart thing to do is to brainstorm ways they would be abused in a competitive environment, ideally by discussing the idea with players that are competitive - the people that would do that abusing.
These are the discussions that have already happened, where we came up with many ways they will be abused.
Based on that, it should be fairly clear how narrow sighted the notion of "just see how it tests" actually is.
Idk @Noaani it seems sort of narrow sighted to me to say discussions you've had, for a system that is not even in place, have already revealed the problems without knowing the specifications. Without any test for how the family summon system works I don't think you can reliably say how it will be abused.
I'm also not really sure if you suggested an alternative to testing the summon system or if you're just trying to shoot it down sight unseen? I'm not saying the feature won't have issues, but like some others, I'm suggesting, test it, try to break it, and trust that Steven and IS will make a solid call on the final model.
Idk Noaani it seems sort of narrow sighted to me to say discussions you've had, for a system that is not even in place, have already revealed the problems without knowing the specifications. Without any test for how the family summon system works I don't think you can reliably say how it will be abused.
I didn't say discussions have revealed all the problems, I said a temporary test environment won't reveal them.
The family summons, as an example. I can think of many ways to abuse it, but abusing it in the way I have in mind requires knowing other players habits - or various aspects of them. Players won't even form habits in a test environment, let alone strong enough habits for others to learn and then abuse. That isn't even factoring in the need for 16+ people to all be in on it, to all learn the habits of others.
And no, I have not suggested any alternatives, because despite what some people think, I am not arrogant enough to presume to tell Intrepid how to do their job.
I am happy to discuss things things as I see them, and I am happy to discuss exactly how I will deal with certain situations. However, whether Intrepid agrees with me or not, what to do is up to them - not me.
One perspective to think about, wow classic was a thing because players missed the good old days of mmorpgs. One of the biggest positives I kept seeing was no flying mounts. Roaming the world again without flying mounts was a beautiful moment in time to experience again for the majority of the players.
Nobody complained about the hearthstone at the time. I'm not sure it even crossed anybody's mind as a negative. If AoC had no flying mounts, got rid of this ridiculous family summoning thing and just gave a long cooldown teleport back to your own home (or possibly to the node you are a citizen of) life would go on and we would all thoroughly enjoy this game. Yes, there are some negatives but overall, there are less negatives than quick cooldown teleports, family summoning loopholes, or no hearths at all. I'm really dreading leading a guild to roam and then having to travel back after a long day. People have lives and I want the game to be filled with fun and engaging moments, not long drawn out travel times. Teleportation was added into games as they evolved because players needed better QOL updates. Eventually these QOL updates became "let's make the game as easy as possible" and that is not right. Find the middle ground.
Difficult but fun and engaging community driven organization is precisely what I hope to see from any mmo I play.
One perspective to think about, wow classic was a thing because players missed the good old days of mmorpgs. One of the biggest positives I kept seeing was no flying mounts. Roaming the world again without flying mounts was a beautiful moment in time to experience again for the majority of the players.
Nobody complained about the hearthstone at the time. I'm not sure it even crossed anybody's mind as a negative. If AoC had no flying mounts, got rid of this ridiculous family summoning thing and just gave a long cooldown teleport back to your own home (or possibly to the node you are a citizen of) life would go on and we would all thoroughly enjoy this game. Yes, there are some negatives but overall, there are less negatives than quick cooldown teleports, family summoning loopholes, or no hearths at all. I'm really dreading leading a guild to roam and then having to travel back after a long day. People have lives and I want the game to be filled with fun and engaging moments, not long drawn out travel times. Teleportation was added into games as they evolved because players needed better QOL updates. Eventually these QOL updates became "let's make the game as easy as possible" and that is not right. Find the middle ground.
Difficult but fun and engaging community driven organization is precisely what I hope to see from any mmo I play.
We cannot compare this game to wow in any of its forms because this game has something that wow does not have. Material loss on death. Caravans for transporting materials from city to city that can be plundered.
If you allow a player to teleport somewhere with these resources you cut into the open world pvp dynamic. Why take a caravan home when you can just teleport back with all your materials? Why walk back to a node after gathering for an hour if you can just hit that button and safely return?
This is why so many are adamantly against even the family system, players will abuse it and hurt the game.
@Sathrago You CAN compare this game to wow. You can compare it to any other game. It shouldn't be considered a sin to compare to some of the other games that have done things "right" at one time or another. Yes, AoC has additional content that drastically alters the way wow implemented a hearth stone.
Limits can be set to using the home teleport. Just like they balanced the hearthstone in wow, the teleport can be balanced to accommodate for what content Intrepid brings to the table.
Walking back to town after spending time gathering would be ok as long as you don't have above "X" materials or weight. What if the teleport was weight based? Why walk the caravan back? Because maybe the caravan can transport high quality materials and teleporting doesn't allow you to take materials of item level "X" or higher? There will always be a way for them to balance the system so that players are unable to abuse it and still be a thicc boi target for you and I to slaughter.
Yeah, the family system sounds terrible and I am assuming it's only a matter of time before Steven makes an announcement on a live stream that it won't be coming out as originally planned. Fingers crossed.
Hard Pass. I thought this was decided already and was a little surprised to hear about the friend/family. I thought the decision was, in part, due to the markets of the game... where an item selling in one node could be a different price in another far away node; just based on the players, resource availability, ect... Enter caravans.
Even at once a day, Friends, Family, Alts, a lot of goods could be moved outside the caravan system; unless when fast traveling you go completely naked and without inventory (but I'd highly doubt that).
Comments
I don't think you understood my post at all, which is normal coming from you lol
You actually just entirely agreed with me.
All I was saying is that if you alt+f4 before that timer runs out your character should still persist.
However, based on your response here, I assume we have been involved in discussions before, and I assume your posts have been left as ambiguous as the one above.
The point I was making is that all of the issues in regards to logging out were solved over 20 years ago. There is no need to go over any of it again.
You can camp out any time, any where, but you have a timer that all can see. If you disconnect from the server in any way, you persist in game for a period of time (this can be a time that is dictated by a technical necessity, or by game design - it does not matter which).
Games have been doing this for over two decades now, it is not new.
This is an idea I could personally get behind.
Drop the family summons, and instead allow the head of a family to designate a single divine gate. Then give everyone in a family of appropriate level a call back to that gate, with a very long (several days) cooldown. Keep all restrictions in terms of not being able to carry gathered materials or certs on you (automatically drops all such items on the ground), and I have far less of an issue with this than I do with the current proposal for a family summons, and it also doubles as a get-out-of-trouble ability - but a get-out-of-trouble ability whereby you drop all gathered materials or certs that you have on you anyway.
In terms of issues I have with the family summons, the potential for being able to assemble a large force anywhere in the world is greatly diminished. You are not able to gather a large force (admittedly even easier) at only one of five specific, unmoving locations in the world. I see far fewer ways to exploit this, and circumventing those fewer ways would be far easier from a players perspective.
Ugh, I always hated this. The game shouldn't get to decide when I log out or not. If I've decided that I'm playing until a certain time and then that time hits, I log out. If another player or creature randomly decides to attack me during that time, my decision to log out shouldn't be affected. If they want to try and take me down during that 10secs window, then fine. Go for it. But, if they can't, then I'm logged out and gone.
I don't think I have disagreed with you in a while, Davey. I understand the spirit of your complaint, but it is so easy to abuse rapid log out that I don't think I can ever get behind it. Even an old PvE only game like FFXI had a 30-second log out timer to prevent possible abuse.
I would never play a game with open world PvP where my target could just log out to get away from me instantly. They should have to be able to hide from danger for at least 30 seconds uninterrupted to escape an online world.
I think it would take some considerable counterpoints to change my mind here.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I could get behind that. But, if you've already activated your logout timer, you shouldn't be brought out of it cos something's targeted you. It should be up to whatever's decided to attack you after you've begun the logout process to bring you down within that time.
Let's split the difference then...
60-second log out time.
The first 30 seconds is interruptible due to you needing to find safety and hide.
The last 30-seconds is an uninterruptible an animation of you waving goodbye to any would be attackers that just caught up to you as you slowly fade out of existence with a smile on your face. You would be invincible during the last 30 seconds and could shut the client down safely at anytime.
Good?
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Hahaha, I love the addition of a wavey emote. Something about waveyness just seems to feel right.....
If I'm under attack, I shouldn't be able to log out. I'm perfectly fine with that. Resolving any active combat first makes sense.
If I'm not under attack, though, or if I've managed to hide for long enough, I shouldn't be prevented from logging out. I just don't see any benefit to having a player click the logout button, waiting 8 of the 10secs to log out, and then be interrupted by something, when all they want to do is to go to bed, pick the kids up from school, get back to work after a lunch break, etc.
If Player A is in a spot where they're not under attack and are in a game-legal position for logging out (i.e., not flying, etc), then why should Player B get to decide whether or not Player A's already existing logout request is completed?
If player A had a hard out at a set time, then they should have a good idea of how long it might take to get back to town or "safeish" area and plan accordingly. To me, this is just being responsible. If you were in a raid or something, maybe ask your guild mates to take your spoils back to town for you or protect you while you log? There are options for hard outs.
If there is like a fire in the house or something, and you need to quickly get out of the game, then I don't think there is anything that should be done game side. Such events are so random that I don't think game designers can really make fair contengency for them. Sometimes single player games don't even have a quick way to get out these days.
I have lost progress on single player saves due to storms so many times in my life. It storms a lot where I live though.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
My impression is that the solution's going to be either ...
a. A short, but interruptible timer. e.g. start logout -> you freeze in place for 20s -> if nothing hits you during that time you're gone, otherwise logout's cancelled. Now fight to secure your safe logout spot.
b. A long, but uninterruptible timer. e.g. start logout -> you freeze in place for 60s -> if whatever's hitting you can't kill you within 60s, your logout completes, otherwise you just ... die?
It's about about finding the balance between ...
1. Preventing players from simply "pulling the plug" when things go sour and escape death penalty.
2. Placing a burden of "finding a safe place to logout" and "plan your trip/adventure" on the player.
3. Player autonomy (when to logout).
You can be attacked in a town or "safeish" area. As far as i remember, it's only non-sieged freeholds and in-town player stalls where you're guaranteed safety. I can't see people wanting to spend 20mins riding back there every time they want to log out.
And, if there was a fire in my house, I wouldn't be thinking about logging out... lol
There has always been two ways to get out of a game.
The first is to camp. Traditionally, this required you to be uninterrupted. You wait in game (often sitting) for a set period of time, and if you are not attacked in that time frame then you leave the game.
The second is to go linkdead (either accidently or on purpose). This can be achieved by your connection to the server going down, or by force exiting the game. Some game even have a force exit to character select that will do this. This method will always leave your character in the game for a short while after you have ceased to have control of it, and so has some risk associated with it.
Players that just want to get out of the game can just exist. There is a small amount of risk involved there, but you do just leave the game
Those that don't want that risk can simply find somewhere safe-ish and camp.
To me, the optimal times would be 10 - 15 seconds for camping, or your character being left in the game world for around 30 seconds by just exiting.
Being in control of a caravan or ship would alter all of this - you wouldn't be able to camp at all, and you would likely be in the game for several minutes (perhaps as long as 5 minutes) if your connection to the server is terminated.
I'm fine with that, but I also agree with @daveywavey. Whether it's planned or not if I've need to log and I can't, that doesn't feel like risk versus reward, it feels like punishment. In a dungeon or other high stakes area there may be very limited safe zones. I've also noticed people in alpha "stuck" in dungeons because they can't get to safety. That won't be fun for anyone.
To put is short "Abuse". Such a system opens the gates for all sorts of coordinated ways to move coordinated groups around the open world. A number of ways the system could be abused have been laid out on the forums and even YouTube over the years. Some more complex than the others.
The main common theme is that "Family Summons" was designed, so small groups of friends can play together, but there is no way to stop large groups of competitive players from abusing the system.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Here's an example. A full party of 8 people are doing a dungeon, and another party comes and is looking for a fight. If everyone in the original party is in a different family, and they each summon one person, now it's 16 vs 8. Adding any sort of summons like this will lead to unfair situations, no matter how hard they try to balance it.
It's even worse than that, they can summon 7 people each. So if the entire group has 7 extra family members you just turned an 8v8 into a one sided slaughter.
Since Steven wants to prevent zergs of this type, we can be sure that Family Summons will not allow such a one-sided fight to be possible.
Family Summons will be tested. And if it allows zergs, Steven will not include it for Launch.
The problem with just seeing how it tests is that test environments aren't competitive.
You cant test out how people will abuse a system in a competitive environment, unless you are in a competitive environment. Since both alpha and beta are temporary, people dont get even close to as competitive (or as organized) as they do in a released MMO.
So, the smart thing to do is to brainstorm ways they would be abused in a competitive environment, ideally by discussing the idea with players that are competitive - the people that would do that abusing.
These are the discussions that have already happened, where we came up with many ways they will be abused.
Based on that, it should be fairly clear how narrow sighted the notion of "just see how it tests" actually is.
I'm also not really sure if you suggested an alternative to testing the summon system or if you're just trying to shoot it down sight unseen? I'm not saying the feature won't have issues, but like some others, I'm suggesting, test it, try to break it, and trust that Steven and IS will make a solid call on the final model.
The family summons, as an example. I can think of many ways to abuse it, but abusing it in the way I have in mind requires knowing other players habits - or various aspects of them. Players won't even form habits in a test environment, let alone strong enough habits for others to learn and then abuse. That isn't even factoring in the need for 16+ people to all be in on it, to all learn the habits of others.
And no, I have not suggested any alternatives, because despite what some people think, I am not arrogant enough to presume to tell Intrepid how to do their job.
I am happy to discuss things things as I see them, and I am happy to discuss exactly how I will deal with certain situations. However, whether Intrepid agrees with me or not, what to do is up to them - not me.
Nobody complained about the hearthstone at the time. I'm not sure it even crossed anybody's mind as a negative. If AoC had no flying mounts, got rid of this ridiculous family summoning thing and just gave a long cooldown teleport back to your own home (or possibly to the node you are a citizen of) life would go on and we would all thoroughly enjoy this game. Yes, there are some negatives but overall, there are less negatives than quick cooldown teleports, family summoning loopholes, or no hearths at all. I'm really dreading leading a guild to roam and then having to travel back after a long day. People have lives and I want the game to be filled with fun and engaging moments, not long drawn out travel times. Teleportation was added into games as they evolved because players needed better QOL updates. Eventually these QOL updates became "let's make the game as easy as possible" and that is not right. Find the middle ground.
Difficult but fun and engaging community driven organization is precisely what I hope to see from any mmo I play.
We cannot compare this game to wow in any of its forms because this game has something that wow does not have. Material loss on death. Caravans for transporting materials from city to city that can be plundered.
If you allow a player to teleport somewhere with these resources you cut into the open world pvp dynamic. Why take a caravan home when you can just teleport back with all your materials? Why walk back to a node after gathering for an hour if you can just hit that button and safely return?
This is why so many are adamantly against even the family system, players will abuse it and hurt the game.
Limits can be set to using the home teleport. Just like they balanced the hearthstone in wow, the teleport can be balanced to accommodate for what content Intrepid brings to the table.
Walking back to town after spending time gathering would be ok as long as you don't have above "X" materials or weight. What if the teleport was weight based? Why walk the caravan back? Because maybe the caravan can transport high quality materials and teleporting doesn't allow you to take materials of item level "X" or higher? There will always be a way for them to balance the system so that players are unable to abuse it and still be a thicc boi target for you and I to slaughter.
Yeah, the family system sounds terrible and I am assuming it's only a matter of time before Steven makes an announcement on a live stream that it won't be coming out as originally planned. Fingers crossed.
Even at once a day, Friends, Family, Alts, a lot of goods could be moved outside the caravan system; unless when fast traveling you go completely naked and without inventory (but I'd highly doubt that).
Anyway just my thoughts.