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Try to limit the amount of braindead and anti-fun CC that is stuns. There are better alternatives.

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Comments

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2021
    Dreoh wrote: »
    I just think at any time you have no agency while playing a video game, you are not "playing a video game" until you get your agency back.
    I guess we're not playing a game while dead so MMORPGs should not have death.



    Dreoh wrote: »
    I just went into the nuance of the difference between death state and stun state like 3 comments above yours
    Walls of text.
    I finally found it. :p
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Dygz wrote: »
    I guess we're not playing a game while dead so MMORPGs should not have death.

    Since the only thing we are doing while playing an MMO is playing an MMO, this logic would result in the only viable MMO being that of us all playing a character that is playing an MMO, and in order for that MMO to be realistic, the MMO that the character we are playing is playing would also need to be an MMO of their character playing an MMO.

    This would result in a never ending Inception type scenario.
  • AerlanaAerlana Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    hum, average 5 sec duration :
    https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=1833/cheap-shot
    https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=8643/kidney-shot
    Also there was the "PvP trinket" to get rid of one of those...
    The kidney shot to 6 sec was 4 skills (in vanilla, nearly no attack speed to reduce GCD)

    As i said, stun is not a problem. the duration, and the CD can make it a problem.

    Stun just have to be short (no more than 1 or 2 skill time) and get some decent CD (30-45 sec would be good basis. because they aim to a time to kill of 30 second)
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    @Aerlana - you have to factor DR into that equation as well.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • CypherCypher Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Stuns can very easily be abused into stunlocking which is absolutely terrible gameplay. Unless you’re a major control freak that gets off on giving your opponent a bad experience and/or preventing them from fighting back, then you won’t support stuns. Relying on preventing your opponent from playing the game in order to win instead of beating them outright is cowardice. It would be like forcing your opponent to skip their turn in a game of chess because you couldn’t beat them on pure merit.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    It's possible to support stuns and not support stun-locking.
    Also, it's possible to design countermeasures to stuns.
    In Ashes, we have a stat for Disable Chance, so we should expect there might be Passives and gear with stats that mitigate/counter Disable Chance.

    At Level 1, it's not uncommon for my Cleric to get stunned by a Scalerunner.
    At Level 9, my Cleric is almost never stunned by even a Level 15 Scalerunner.
    And also always withstands the tailslap.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    Cypher wrote: »
    Stuns can very easily be abused into stunlocking which is absolutely terrible gameplay. Unless you’re a major control freak that gets off on giving your opponent a bad experience and/or preventing them from fighting back, then you won’t support stuns. Relying on preventing your opponent from playing the game in order to win instead of beating them outright is cowardice. It would be like forcing your opponent to skip their turn in a game of chess because you couldn’t beat them on pure merit.

    Your analogy for chess is kind of silly. For a few reasons,
    1. It assumes that there are only two players in a fight. If I'm fighting three players in pvp, I'm absolutely using everything in my kit (including stuns) to control the fight so I can survive.
    2. It assumes that the players have equal tools in their kit, e.g. the same pieces on the board (a mage is not going to just stand toe to toe with a fighter, and one player may have twice as many abilities as the other)
    3. It equates using an ability that's not in chess in chess to using an ability that is in MMOs in MMOs, then drawing some sort of judgement.

    Chess fixes resources for both players evenly so that it emphasizes strategic play of those resources. But it's an academic, isometric exercise. Giving your opponent equal footing in actual combat is just silly.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • DreohDreoh Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    Dreoh wrote: »
    I just think at any time you have no agency while playing a video game, you are not "playing a video game" until you get your agency back.
    I guess we're not playing a game while dead so MMORPGs should not have death.

    Well to be fair none of the MMO's I've played have the kind of death state you have in FPS's and such. Usually you can just revive at a nearby waypoint or walk back to your corpse lol.

    If you got stuck sitting there for like 30 seconds dead before you could do either of those that would suck too lol

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2021
    Because an RPG is not an FPS.
    In Ashes, I haven't been stuck in Stun for 30 seconds.
    Sounds like the issue is not so much being stunned, but the length of time stuck in stun.
    Which I think most people in this thread agree with.
  • DreohDreoh Member
    No I have an issue with stuns themselves, but I also am not so extreme as to say the simple existence of stuns makes a game bad, just not as good as it could be.
  • DizzDizz Member
    edited July 2021
    I think now hard CCs are better than previous as I see in video and wiki.

    I am okay with skills eventually able to develop to be a hard CC or less hard CC example grounded in a limited area, but not at the beginning, for example rank 1 to have soft CC , rank 2 extend duration or damage even maybe hard CC, rank 3 definitely hard CC for an enough duration.

    But I don't know how many skills will be in Ashes and while reach max level how many hard CC we can have and still have a good heath damage, if will be hard to have good damage it's definitely okay to have some adjustment.
    A casual follower from TW.

    ↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
    Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
  • I can really appreciate long cc chains in WoW, but it can definitely be frustrating to play against even with dispels and other cc removal.

    I'd be ok with stuns, but as long as 1) they're not instant cast so there's the ability to react to it, and 2) stuns don't last more than 2 seconds, which is more than enough time to coordinate a burst into.
  • FairtaleFairtale Member
    edited July 2021
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Stuns are a classic board game mechanic called: "you lose a turn"
    Then go play a board game.

    Stuns are lazy coding, feel bad and look bad. We need a "hero falls on the floor" animation and make it last for as many seconds as the "stun" would last.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    mr n0body wrote: »
    Stuns are lazy coding

    No stuns is lazy coding, as there is no coding involved.

    Adding stuns is more coding than not adding stuns. The only thing lazy is your statement.
  • DreohDreoh Member
    Noaani wrote: »
    mr n0body wrote: »
    Stuns are lazy coding

    No stuns is lazy coding, as there is no coding involved.

    Adding stuns is more coding than not adding stuns. The only thing lazy is your statement.

    That's an incredibly bad faith thing to say because you're missing the point hard by misrepresenting the argument of the thread.

    This entire thread isn't "No stuns!"

    It's "Alternative to stuns!"

    Nothing lazy about doing the alternatives. In fact as I've stated in the title and original post and most of my replies, stuns are extremely lazy compared to the alternatives.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited July 2021
    Dreoh wrote: »
    Nothing lazy about doing the alternatives.
    I think you missed the point of the comment.

    It wasn't a point about stuns at all.
  • FairtaleFairtale Member
    edited July 2021
    Dreoh wrote: »
    This entire thread isn't "No stuns!"

    It's "Alternative to stuns!"
    How is a throw not an alternative to a stun? Does your hero NECESSARILY have to be standing there in the mortal combat "finish him" pose for the duration of the stun?

    Or is it just not the alternative you want? then just say that.
  • DreohDreoh Member
    mr n0body wrote: »
    Dreoh wrote: »
    This entire thread isn't "No stuns!"

    It's "Alternative to stuns!"
    How is a throw not an alternative to a stun? Does your hero NECESSARILY have to be standing there in the mortal combat "finish him" pose for the duration of the stun?

    Or is it just not the alternative you want? then just say that.

    What? I wasn't talking about your comment at all, what are you going on about lol?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Dreoh wrote: »
    mr n0body wrote: »
    Dreoh wrote: »
    This entire thread isn't "No stuns!"

    It's "Alternative to stuns!"
    How is a throw not an alternative to a stun? Does your hero NECESSARILY have to be standing there in the mortal combat "finish him" pose for the duration of the stun?

    Or is it just not the alternative you want? then just say that.

    What? I wasn't talking about your comment at all, what are you going on about lol?

    You'll have to forgive him, he is still working out how forums work.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    :D
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • Dreoh wrote: »

    What? I wasn't talking about your comment at all, what are you going on about lol?

    I thought you were complaining about the throws/tumbles idea. My bad xD

  • Vhaeyne wrote: »
    @Dreoh

    You may or may not like what Wildstar did with stuns, but I always liked Wildstar's PvP stun mechanic because of your chief complaint. You can't play the game when you are stunned.

    This short video from the Wildstar devs shows things better than I could describe them.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2G_8c-u2qc

    What is important is that CC was just temporally changed your gameplay objectives instead of outright removing you from the game. Being able to react well to CC was just another player skill that was rewarded with shorter CC durations.

    What do you think of this?

    I read the thread title and immediately thought of wild star. I thoroughly enjoyed what they did for CC. My favorite bring if you got hit with a disorient, it randomly remapped your WASD keys for a bit.

    But I very much like the idea of being able to respond to a CC rather than just wait it out and take it...
  • if you got hit with a disorient, it randomly remapped your WASD keys for a bit...

    That is a very cool idea.

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • No stuns or CCs at all just seems like a unreasonable removal of a important mechanic/strategic part of the game.

    There are plenty of ways to properly balance CC skills, you can even follow the same pattern of balancing the damage of a skill based on Range, Size of AoE(if AoE), Cooldown and Cast time.
    Then just add the variant CC and Duration(from 1 to 4 sec) to it. For example:
    Example 1 (Shield Bash): Short range, TT No AoE, Medium Cooldown, Fast Cast, Stun, 3 sec duration and low damage
    Example 2 (Ground Slam): Short range, Medium AoE, Medium Cooldown, Fast Cast, Knockdown, 2 sec duration and medium damage.
    Example 3 (Lightning Bolt): Medium range, Skill Shot, Medium Cooldown, Fast Cast, Paralyse, 1 sec duration and medium damage.

    Methods to directly deal with CCs are very good such as i-frames roll/block/counter, CC immunity buffs of some types, Instant CC removal skills.

    There is also the possibility of passive mechanics to deal with CC lock such as gaining immunity to a type of CC after taking the same type of cc 3 times in a short period of time for some seconds, aswell as things like gear, buffs or stats that provide Less CC duration or %chance to evade the CC altogether.


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    Aren't we all sinners?
  • DreohDreoh Member
    edited August 2021
    No stuns or CCs at all just seems like a unreasonable removal of a important mechanic/strategic part of the game.

    There are plenty of ways to properly balance CC skills, you can even follow the same pattern of balancing the damage of a skill based on Range, Size of AoE(if AoE), Cooldown and Cast time.
    Then just add the variant CC and Duration(from 1 to 4 sec) to it. For example:
    Example 1 (Shield Bash): Short range, TT No AoE, Medium Cooldown, Fast Cast, Stun, 3 sec duration and low damage
    Example 2 (Ground Slam): Short range, Medium AoE, Medium Cooldown, Fast Cast, Knockdown, 2 sec duration and medium damage.
    Example 3 (Lightning Bolt): Medium range, Skill Shot, Medium Cooldown, Fast Cast, Paralyse, 1 sec duration and medium damage.

    Methods to directly deal with CCs are very good such as i-frames roll/block/counter, CC immunity buffs of some types, Instant CC removal skills.

    There is also the possibility of passive mechanics to deal with CC lock such as gaining immunity to a type of CC after taking the same type of cc 3 times in a short period of time for some seconds, aswell as things like gear, buffs or stats that provide Less CC duration or %chance to evade the CC altogether.


    Another person who failed to read the original post and thinks this is an anti-CC thread lmao

    It's an anti-stun thread, not an anti-CC thread.

    And I was very thorough in the OP and follow-up comments about why easy stuns is completely unnecessary and just lazy design.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    I dont think games are rdy to replace good old stun. Knockdown and knockback and knockout might be too hard to balance.
    Stun isnt going away yet.
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    edited August 2021
    Crowd control is crowd control... and seeing that the game is focused around group play, anyone who has played competitive group pvp in MMOs knows that stuns are great, and getting stunned just requires your team to make sure you dont die while stunned. Arguing against this one specific crowd control is hypocritcal when a root is basically a stun to any melee character with nobody near them, or a silence to any caster. Crowd control is meant to control the opponents ability and movement. So stop trying to single out stuns as lazy writing or whatever, if you really are that concerned just call it knocking someone prone and they have to get back up to attack or move.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • DreohDreoh Member
    edited August 2021
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Crowd control is crowd control... and seeing that the game is focused around group play, anyone who has played competitive group pvp in MMOs knows that stuns are great, and getting stunned just requires your team to make sure you dont die while stunned. Arguing against this one specific crowd control is hypocritcal when a root is basically a stun to any melee character with nobody near them, or a silence to any caster. Crowd control is meant to control the opponents ability and movement. So stop trying to single out stuns as lazy writing or whatever, if you really are that concerned just call it knocking someone prone and they have to get back up to attack or move.

    It is not hypocritical and arguing that a root is just a stun for a melee character is disingenuous assuming you've read through this thread.

    The difference has already been explained thoroughly.

    If you really need me to rehash it I can just quote the previous discussions on exactly the scenario you described.

    @George Black I actually disagree, I think games have been ready to get rid of stuns a long time ago. People are just suckers for nostalgia and tradition and generally dislike change even if it's for the better. Stuns "work", but that's no excuse to not improve the system. Making excuses for bad game design isn't helping anyone.

    And to clarify, full CC lockdown isn't what I'm arguing against, as you can read in the first page I mention how a full "stun" could still be possible, it should just require more thought and skill than "I press Hammer of Justice and you're stunned for 1-6 seconds".
    Separate the stun into it's parts, and if you want a full stun, apply all the parts. Or make it require compounding effects.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited August 2021
    Personally, I think that having stars circle your characters head, inplying disorientation, and a character standing still receiving hits looks bad.

    But again, a shieldbash inflicting a knockdown/knockback, or a spell lifting a target and smashing them down, or anything else that looks way better than stun might be a coding and balancing challenge.

    Players arent nostalgic. Perhaps developers are lazy. Improve the system, yes, but replace it only when its ready.

    And when you have people requesting spear fishing, cooking minigames and the such, good luck on working for better combat features...
  • edited August 2021
    Dreoh wrote: »
    No stuns or CCs at all just seems like a unreasonable removal of a important mechanic/strategic part of the game.

    There are plenty of ways to properly balance CC skills, you can even follow the same pattern of balancing the damage of a skill based on Range, Size of AoE(if AoE), Cooldown and Cast time.
    Then just add the variant CC and Duration(from 1 to 4 sec) to it. For example:
    Example 1 (Shield Bash): Short range, TT No AoE, Medium Cooldown, Fast Cast, Stun, 3 sec duration and low damage
    Example 2 (Ground Slam): Short range, Medium AoE, Medium Cooldown, Fast Cast, Knockdown, 2 sec duration and medium damage.
    Example 3 (Lightning Bolt): Medium range, Skill Shot, Medium Cooldown, Fast Cast, Paralyse, 1 sec duration and medium damage.

    Methods to directly deal with CCs are very good such as i-frames roll/block/counter, CC immunity buffs of some types, Instant CC removal skills.

    There is also the possibility of passive mechanics to deal with CC lock such as gaining immunity to a type of CC after taking the same type of cc 3 times in a short period of time for some seconds, aswell as things like gear, buffs or stats that provide Less CC duration or %chance to evade the CC altogether.


    Another person who failed to read the original post and thinks this is an anti-CC thread lmao

    It's an anti-stun thread, not an anti-CC thread.

    And I was very thorough in the OP and follow-up comments about why easy stuns is completely unnecessary and just lazy design.

    Why necessarily or specificaly "anti-stun", why not knockdowns, Knockbacks, paralyzes or Stagger? I think you mean anti-hard CC.
    From reading your original post even tho it isn't a "anti-CC thread" and "being pro-soft CC" its a definitely an "Anti Hard-CC thread" and no matter how you look at it, it is far from being "lazy design" or "unnecessary" and as you stated that it's purely "your opinion" using "You're not playing the game when you don't have control of your character" neglecting things like CC removal or immunity skill.
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