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Why is tab target, or the original combat style in MMOs, so alienated now?
nidriks
Member, Warrior of Old, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
I played New World beta this weekend. It's not for me. I hated the combat.
To be frank, I have hated the way combat has been going in MMOs for many years now. I come from Everquest; the tab target games of old. I loved the combat in EQ, but I can understand a need to modernise it.
For me, the combat in SWTOR was fantastic. It felt fluid and engrossing, despite being tab target still.
In recent years the change has happened.
First we got Guild Wars 2; a game that, for me, seemed to be all about jumping around like a bloody kangaroo. ESO wasn't so bad. Wildstar was even worse than GW2.
New World's combat is about as far from my comfort zone as it is possible to get. It was like a bad nightmare for me and as far from the likes of EQ, EQ2 or SWTOR as I believe it is possible to get.
I'm middle aged with the coordination of an blind Elephant with its legs tied together. Tab target combat gave me something I could enjoy and keep up with. I bought an MMO mouse and felt I did well at combat in SWTOR. I had to move on from a button masher to using keyboard/mouse.
I'm glad Ashes is trying to develop a hybrid system, but the one thing that always made me nervous was that Intrepid wanted some form of action combat.
I just feel like MMOs are getting further and further away from something I like and enjoy to something for the skill enabled kids of the 2000s.
I'll continue to have fait in Ashes because the game seems to be endeavouring to offer something aside from combat. I can be an artisan alone. I do want to enjoy some combat though. I remember Vanguard and the ability to be an artisan solely in that game. There was a mix with combat though and you had to go to some dangerous areas to acquire rare items or finding artisan camps.
So, is it a younger generation thing? Are us old farts just out of luck now? Do I have to adapt?
This action combat is not going away, is it?
To be frank, I have hated the way combat has been going in MMOs for many years now. I come from Everquest; the tab target games of old. I loved the combat in EQ, but I can understand a need to modernise it.
For me, the combat in SWTOR was fantastic. It felt fluid and engrossing, despite being tab target still.
In recent years the change has happened.
First we got Guild Wars 2; a game that, for me, seemed to be all about jumping around like a bloody kangaroo. ESO wasn't so bad. Wildstar was even worse than GW2.
New World's combat is about as far from my comfort zone as it is possible to get. It was like a bad nightmare for me and as far from the likes of EQ, EQ2 or SWTOR as I believe it is possible to get.
I'm middle aged with the coordination of an blind Elephant with its legs tied together. Tab target combat gave me something I could enjoy and keep up with. I bought an MMO mouse and felt I did well at combat in SWTOR. I had to move on from a button masher to using keyboard/mouse.
I'm glad Ashes is trying to develop a hybrid system, but the one thing that always made me nervous was that Intrepid wanted some form of action combat.
I just feel like MMOs are getting further and further away from something I like and enjoy to something for the skill enabled kids of the 2000s.
I'll continue to have fait in Ashes because the game seems to be endeavouring to offer something aside from combat. I can be an artisan alone. I do want to enjoy some combat though. I remember Vanguard and the ability to be an artisan solely in that game. There was a mix with combat though and you had to go to some dangerous areas to acquire rare items or finding artisan camps.
So, is it a younger generation thing? Are us old farts just out of luck now? Do I have to adapt?
This action combat is not going away, is it?
1
Comments
More importantly, I like the freedom movement with the reticle even when I'm just exploring.
Also, feels faster than tab target to me.
(I am not a supporter of 'Action Combat' because I consider it an underdefined term, but almost all forms of it, the above description fits)
While the above description does generally fit, there is no inherent need for a tab target game to not require as much mobility as an action combat game.
The only difference in this regard is that bunny hopping and other such stupid things are of no value in tab target games, which is a good thing.
I'll accept that for games like EQ. As much as I loved EQ, and the years I spent in that game are by far my best gaming memories ever, I know that style of gameplay is not going to hold up now.
I don't really love the questy nature of WOW but it wasn't a game devoid of mobility.
Let's be honest here. Much of the mobility in modern action combat games is jumping around like a bloody kangaroo.
It is also why I don't see a problem with a hybrid system. My understanding is that some people who want 'Action Combat' don't want it to be 'too easy' to target, and don't want 'just using Tab Target' for certain abilities to be effective (or 'as effective').
To be frank, I believe that people mostly don't understand what they want very well, and those few that do know some component they definitely want will push for not only that thing, but everything they are used to 'going with that thing'.
The discussion is ongoing, it's up to you if you want to start another (I don't mean this to discourage you at all).
Why does it need to be distinct?
Action and tab target offer differing game play experiences (far more than just the targeting system, generally speaking), there is no reason the mobility situations need to be different.
I definitely feel like a lot of the people arguing for either system don't have a good idea of what they do want.
I can't claim that other people don't 'really feel better' when they master their JackRabbit Stance, so there's nothing to say there. I'mma just keep crunching the data and if I find anything that doesn't amount to one of the two above (or the nearly unanimous and general dislike for the forward momentum animation lock of melee attacks), I'll add it here for the sake of the discussion, rather than waiting to only put it with the compilation. If it wasn't in the Combat Discussion thread from awhile back, that is.
I'm sure something will show up eventually. I remember people having more accurate arguments than what I'm generally seeing from the logs.
Granted I know tab target could be less about rotations and have all situational abilities, but nearly every tab target game is about rotations.
The hybrid combat of GW2 and Wildstar had the best of both worlds. The mobile skill-based spells and the spells that could only be done via tab target. And they aren't rotation based (for the most part)
I also despise the thought of leaving whether I win or lose up to RNG, even if it's minor. Dodge chance, accuracy change, etc. are all trash mechanics to me. I want to win on my own merits, not on the merits of the Mathf.Random() function.
While I completely understand the wish for complete escape from RNG, the enemy model design would have to be incredibly tuned to avoid this. There are people who absolutely believe that they should be able to strafe and therefore avoid most attacks of monsters in PvE by strafing.
In order to make PvE, particularly group PvE, matter at all, the requirements for monster size and attack arcs would quickly move toward Tera or Monster Hunter, or their speed would increase to a point where lag would become a serious consideration (not saying it would definitely be a problem).
I do not perceive that the dullness you experience is in any way related to Tab Target, and practicing timing and reactions vs practicing aim is generally a player choice that Intrepid seems to want to maintain.
Ashes currently in Alpha does seem like a 'rotations' game. There is no evidence otherwise as yet, only theoreticals based on design structures that are in place but which don't currently have their active counterparts on the player side.
And yea, I was just responding in a general sense to OP. Ashes seems to be doing very well in these regards.
@Dreoh - As you noted, that will be the bulk of the work, and therefore any delays will probably multiply there. I tentatively oppose the 'split body, strafe while striking' option because of how lackluster I find PvE in games that have it.
I do not oppose it based on PvP outside of the common lag issues, but they are just that... common, so I still can't support it until I see the correct ratios.
Looking at the animations so far, though, 'Action Combat' is just going to be about making sure your weapon has the largest cleave cone or the best chase option. Already a common 'take' amongst content creators that cover PvP aspects...
I agree, I find games where you can pre-determine the best order to press buttons to be quite dull.
Yet, that is also not an inherent aspect of tab target, it is simply a sign of a poor tab target game.
A good tab target game will see knowing what abilities your next two will be, but anything past that is not guaranteed.
When done well, a tab target game takes the attention the player would need to put on aiming in an action game, and transfers that to the correct ability choice in combat. This obviously means that correct choice needs to not be pre- determined.
The old school tab targeting with the passive auto attacks and pressing buttons off cooldown is just too slow these days. A modern game needs to have movement, dodge roll, and active combat movement. I think Ashes is implementing the right idea here. Have the quick movement, but use the tab targeting system so that your aim doesn't really matter and the abilities you use depend on the situation (do I need gap closer, is enemy cc'd, am I gonna die, etc.)
I think the same as you@nidriks
I personally hated the NW combat system. I love the tab target system, maybe with a bit more +movement+ skills in it, but i don t want to play an MMO SHOOTER where i have to aim to hit with magic..no thats not fun for me at all !
Lets hope Ashes will be more fun
Targeting can be easier in Action Combat when playing with the camera zoomed in, which they said is more immersive. Others also mentioned immersiveness but hadn't given this precise reason.
That, however, is at the very core of an MMORPG. The dice roll. You are playing a character with his or her own stats that are separate from you the player. You are not playing an extension of your own player skills like you are in shooters.
For MMORPGs in general in the future, I have no idea. Specifically for Ashes, Steven said that if they can't make a good action combat system, they'll go back to full tab target.
I understand the dilemma the developers are in though. Action vs. tab is definitely also an age/generation thing. MMORPG players are on average not young, and generally prefer tab target. To attract younger people, who to a higher degree dislike tab target, they are trying this hybrid system.
Even if so, the last discussion on this topic leaned towards a different solution for dodge chance, at least, tying the 'range at which a person's reticle sticks to the player' to their dodge chance, though it was not fully explored conceptually.
No. If you can't handle having to manually acquire your target, stick to those old, dead games. The MMORPG genre is adapting for the better, so adapt to survive, old man.
What an ignorant reply. What's brains got to do with jumping around like a petrified rabbit?
What to do with tab target is automatically acquiring targets? Manual acquisition of targets is a key part of tab target combat and there are key tactics involved in tab target combat. Tanks needs to pick the right target to pull, switch to take aggro, move about so that mobs are facing the right way. The group needs to be picking the right targets to thin the melee and improve the tank's survivability.
Yours is the ignorant sort of reply that keeps MMOs stale and lacking innovation. Let's have all MMOs have combat where the player jumps around like a petrified rabbit.
Tab target combat can be a thing of beauty when done right. The combat in SWTOR was fluid and dynamic. EQ, though old and worthy of upgrading, had tactics galore with its abundant classes and varied approaches. The same goes for EQ2 and Vanguard. WOW combat was fluid and tactical. The player had to be aware of where they positioned themselves in many of these games.
I'm not against change. I'd just rather it was not done as simplistic as the combat in New World. Non-cancellable animations have no place in games. Poor class design should be a thing of the past.
I found this video earlier and I think it's a good analysis of the differences.
That is actually not true, and I'm not sure why you are making that argument.
"Chance" is not a core concept of MMOs, it's just a frequently used mechanic of (typically) older MMOs.
In fact, many MMO's don't use chance at all, and their combat works just fine.
And those chanceless MMOs also have stats, just not "dodge chance stat" or "accuracy stat", so I don't know why you're tying stats to chance either.
Edit: I mean, look at New World for the most recent example. It's an MMO with stats and no RNG and the combat (when latency is good and whether you like it's combat or not) works mostly exactly as intended.
It leaves nothing to chance, it has stats, and is an MMO.
GW2 (whether you like it or not) also is an example of an RNG-less (other than crits) MMO that has combat that is frequently lauded as peoples favorite MMO combat.
Ofc ofc, only bec. you don t like tab target, its old boring..and only action combat is for high skillers and +young+ people ya?
If you cannot bring some valid arguments , there is the door young boy. Get some manners first before trying to communicate ;-)
Best wishes from an old man.
Chance is most certainly a huge part of MMORPG's in general
You can't just say crit chance doesn't count. GW2 combat, while being way more action based than some others, still has a really impactful chance mechanic in that regard. If you have to narrow it down to specifically only talk about active evasion skills that's fine, but you can't just use that and say that chance isn't one of the core mechanics of the MMORPG genre in general.
I don't know NW, so maybe there is zero chance in combat. No crits, no nothing, just pure movement and static damage numbers without any range.
GW2 isn't one of those many MMOs without chance in combat, but you said "Many" so I assume you know others?
I typically think of action combat being faster than tab target, responses like Dodge/Roll/Blink/Block are faster and it becomes possible to put obstacles in the path of ranged attacks. I can run around trees or walls to possibly avoid a Tank's Javelin/Lasso.
That being said...
RNG always needs to be an aspect of RPGs - including combat - because the whole point of RPGs is that the character should be able to be more skilled than the player. I should be able to put points into Stealth to make my max level Rogue hide better than I, the player, might be able to. Just because a player can see my character and target it does not necessarily mean that their character should be able to see my character and target it.
Same with Dex. In an RPG, just because a player has higher Dex than I do as a player, that does not necessarily meant their character has a higher Dex than my character.
Also, my Mage with low Dex should have a more difficult time avoiding the Javelin/Lasso of a Tank with high Dex, even if I'm trying to run around trees.
Tab target and AoEs help attackers with that - in addition to RNG.
I agree that characters should perform differently based off stats but disagree it needs to be done through rng. Yes, your character who is focused on dex should have a better dodge then mine focused on strength but i believe there are other ways of doing this besides rng dodge. An example being giving your character iframes, a quicker dodge, and/or more dodge uses.
This comes across as you arbitrarily drawling a line in the sand on where the player's influence ends. You also don't have the same intellect as your character and naturally wouldn't know the best way to use their abilities but that is something player's learn. I don't think you believe that your character should play itself.
Just like how someone who is playing a wizard and actively casting spells, if dodging is a part of a characters identity, I think player should play an active role if using it (if the game allows).
If, like in NWO, Wizards have Dodge/Roll/Blink, we should expect to Wizards darting out of the way.
And we should also expect AoEs to mitigate some of that.
If caught by the AOE, we should expect RNG, stats and skill points to also mitigate the damage.
Just because a player has the intellect/knowledge to be a Master at Animal Husbandry, does not mean their Blacksmith will have what it takes to be a Master Blacksmith.
The line between character skill and player skill in RPGs is not arbitrary.
It's going to be a key aspect of the game design. There is wiggle room.
But the more focus there is on player skill rather than character skill - the farther away the game is from being an RPG.
Nice evasion of the point by focusing on a pedantic argument about GW2 having a single instance of chance. Every single game has some form of RNG, it's such a pedantic argument for you to say "yea well you said no rng so that means absolutely none whatsoever".
I also never said "crit chance doesn't count" anywhere at all lol. Though I do think crit chance is a far lesser deciding factor of combat than dodge/accuracy is.
Sea of Thieves has RNG in it's fishing and ship spawn, does that mean RNG is a core concept of Sea of Thieves?
Chance is a core concept of gambling.
Chance is not a core concept of MMO's.
A core concept is something that is required. Chance is not required for an MMO to be an MMO.
The core concepts of MMO's includes "massively multiplayer" and "player interactivity". Those are two things that define an MMO and a game is not an MMO without. Before you get pedantic again, of course there are a few more core concepts of the genre but those are just examples.
Are you really telling me you are incapable of visualizing how a game can be an MMO without chance-based combat?
Jumping around like a rabbit? That shouldn't be a concern with tab-target, once you've locked on, they're done for, don't be worried. Oh, unless you're saying that without it, you can't keep up, well, that's understandable.
And for everyone using FPS games as their definitive scapegoat it's old, very old. About as old as the mindset that MMO's require such old and dated gameplay to be what you perceive as good. FPS gamers don't push for action combat, it's MMO players that want a more immersive combat experience.