Why is tab target, or the original combat style in MMOs, so alienated now?

I played New World beta this weekend. It's not for me. I hated the combat.

To be frank, I have hated the way combat has been going in MMOs for many years now. I come from Everquest; the tab target games of old. I loved the combat in EQ, but I can understand a need to modernise it.

For me, the combat in SWTOR was fantastic. It felt fluid and engrossing, despite being tab target still.

In recent years the change has happened.

First we got Guild Wars 2; a game that, for me, seemed to be all about jumping around like a bloody kangaroo. ESO wasn't so bad. Wildstar was even worse than GW2.

New World's combat is about as far from my comfort zone as it is possible to get. It was like a bad nightmare for me and as far from the likes of EQ, EQ2 or SWTOR as I believe it is possible to get.

I'm middle aged with the coordination of an blind Elephant with its legs tied together. Tab target combat gave me something I could enjoy and keep up with. I bought an MMO mouse and felt I did well at combat in SWTOR. I had to move on from a button masher to using keyboard/mouse.

I'm glad Ashes is trying to develop a hybrid system, but the one thing that always made me nervous was that Intrepid wanted some form of action combat.

I just feel like MMOs are getting further and further away from something I like and enjoy to something for the skill enabled kids of the 2000s.

I'll continue to have fait in Ashes because the game seems to be endeavouring to offer something aside from combat. I can be an artisan alone. I do want to enjoy some combat though. I remember Vanguard and the ability to be an artisan solely in that game. There was a mix with combat though and you had to go to some dangerous areas to acquire rare items or finding artisan camps.

So, is it a younger generation thing? Are us old farts just out of luck now? Do I have to adapt?

This action combat is not going away, is it?

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nidriks

Merek wrote: »

TL;DR - I can't handle games that require me to use my brain in combat, please, allow me to fight at maximum potential with little to no effort.

No. If you can't handle having to manually acquire your target, stick to those old, dead games. The MMORPG genre is adapting for the better, so adapt to survive, old man.

What an ignorant reply. What's brains got to do with jumping around like a petrified rabbit?

What to do with tab target is automatically acquiring targets? Manual acquisition of targets is a key part of tab target combat and there are key tactics involved in tab target combat. Tanks needs to pick the right target to pull, switch to take aggro, move about so that mobs are facing the right way. The group needs to be picking the right targets to thin the melee and improve the tank's survivability.

Yours is the ignorant sort of reply that keeps MMOs stale and lacking innovation. Let's have all MMOs have combat where the player jumps around like a petrified rabbit.

Tab target combat can be a thing of beauty when done right. The combat in SWTOR was fluid and dynamic. EQ, though old and worthy of upgrading, had tactics galore with its abundant classes and varied approaches. The same goes for EQ2 and Vanguard. WOW combat was fluid and tactical. The player had to be aware of where they positioned themselves in many of these games.

I'm not against change. I'd just rather it was not done as simplistic as the combat in New World. Non-cancellable animations have no place in games. Poor class design should be a thing of the past.

I found this video earlier and I think it's a good analysis of the differences.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sIgCD1f5x0&list=LL&index=2

Dreoh

Nerror wrote: »

Dreoh wrote: »

I also despise the thought of leaving whether I win or lose up to RNG, even if it's minor. Dodge chance, accuracy change, etc. are all trash mechanics to me. I want to win on my own merits, not on the merits of the Mathf.Random() function.

That, however, is at the very core of an MMORPG. The dice roll. You are playing a character with his or her own stats that are separate from you the player. You are not playing an extension of your own player skills like you are in shooters.

That is actually not true, and I'm not sure why you are making that argument.

"Chance" is not a core concept of MMOs, it's just a frequently used mechanic of (typically) older MMOs.

In fact, many MMO's don't use chance at all, and their combat works just fine.

And those chanceless MMOs also have stats, just not "dodge chance stat" or "accuracy stat", so I don't know why you're tying stats to chance either.

Edit: I mean, look at New World for the most recent example. It's an MMO with stats and no RNG and the combat (when latency is good and whether you like it's combat or not) works mostly exactly as intended.
It leaves nothing to chance, it has stats, and is an MMO.
GW2 (whether you like it or not) also is an example of an RNG-less (other than crits) MMO that has combat that is frequently lauded as peoples favorite MMO combat.

dmsephiroth

Merek wrote: »

TL;DR - I can't handle games that require me to use my brain in combat, please, allow me to fight at maximum potential with little to no effort.

No. If you can't handle having to manually acquire your target, stick to those old, dead games. The MMORPG genre is adapting for the better, so adapt to survive, old man.

Ofc ofc, only bec. you don t like tab target, its old boring..and only action combat is for high skillers and +young+ people ya?
If you cannot bring some valid arguments , there is the door young boy. Get some manners first before trying to communicate ;-)

Best wishes from an old man.

Nerror

Dreoh wrote: »

That is actually not true, and I'm not sure why you are making that argument.

"Chance" is not a core concept of MMOs, it's just a frequently used mechanic of (typically) older MMOs.

In fact, many MMO's don't use chance at all, and their combat works just fine.

And those chanceless MMOs also have stats, just not "dodge chance stat" or "accuracy stat", so I don't know why you're tying stats to chance either.

Edit: I mean, look at New World for the most recent example. It's an MMO with stats and no RNG and the combat (when latency is good and whether you like it's combat or not) works mostly exactly as intended.
It leaves nothing to chance, it has stats, and is an MMO.
GW2 (whether you like it or not) also is an example of an RNG-less (other than crits) MMO that has combat that is frequently lauded as peoples favorite MMO combat.

Chance is most certainly a huge part of MMORPG's in general

Even when we narrow it down to combat and ignore all the other aspects of those games like loot and what-not.

You can't just say crit chance doesn't count. GW2 combat, while being way more action based than some others, still has a really impactful chance mechanic in that regard. If you have to narrow it down to specifically only talk about active evasion skills that's fine, but you can't just use that and say that chance isn't one of the core mechanics of the MMORPG genre in general.

I don't know NW, so maybe there is zero chance in combat. No crits, no nothing, just pure movement and static damage numbers without any range.

GW2 isn't one of those many MMOs without chance in combat, but you said "Many" so I assume you know others?

Dygz

Azherae wrote: »

it is partially because I see no situation where mobility is distinct from Tab target that I can't support the general idea of 'Action Combat'.

Well, one of things I like about action combat in NWO and Wildstar, currently missing from Ashes, is the floor telegraphs that act as peripheral vision, thereby giving me a bit of adrenal rush while I'm focused on the enemies in front of me, realize I'm being attacked from behind and then Dodge or Roll or Blink away from danger in an instant.

I typically think of action combat being faster than tab target, responses like Dodge/Roll/Blink/Block are faster and it becomes possible to put obstacles in the path of ranged attacks. I can run around trees or walls to possibly avoid a Tank's Javelin/Lasso.

That being said...
RNG always needs to be an aspect of RPGs - including combat - because the whole point of RPGs is that the character should be able to be more skilled than the player. I should be able to put points into Stealth to make my max level Rogue hide better than I, the player, might be able to. Just because a player can see my character and target it does not necessarily mean that their character should be able to see my character and target it.
Same with Dex. In an RPG, just because a player has higher Dex than I do as a player, that does not necessarily meant their character has a higher Dex than my character.

Also, my Mage with low Dex should have a more difficult time avoiding the Javelin/Lasso of a Tank with high Dex, even if I'm trying to run around trees.
Tab target and AoEs help attackers with that - in addition to RNG.

mcstackerson

Dygz wrote: »

That being said...
RNG always needs to be an aspect of RPGs - including combat - because the whole point of RPGs is that the character should be able to be more skilled than the player. I should be able to put points into Stealth to make my max level Rogue hide better than I, the player, might be able to. Just because a player can see my character and target it does not necessarily mean that their character should be able to see my character and target it.
Same with Dex. In an RPG, just because a player has higher Dex than I do as a player, that does not necessarily meant their character has a higher Dex than my character.

Also, my Mage with low Dex should have a more difficult time avoiding the Javelin/Lasso of a Tank with high Dex, even if I'm trying to run around trees.
Tab target and AoEs help attackers with that - in addition to RNG.

I agree that characters should perform differently based off stats but disagree it needs to be done through rng. Yes, your character who is focused on dex should have a better dodge then mine focused on strength but i believe there are other ways of doing this besides rng dodge. An example being giving your character iframes, a quicker dodge, and/or more dodge uses.

This comes across as you arbitrarily drawling a line in the sand on where the player's influence ends. You also don't have the same intellect as your character and naturally wouldn't know the best way to use their abilities but that is something player's learn. I don't think you believe that your character should play itself.

Just like how someone who is playing a wizard and actively casting spells, if dodging is a part of a characters identity, I think player should play an active role if using it (if the game allows).

ArcticFoxAD

For me, I'm looking for something to move to from eso for pvp so if they go full tab targeting I'm out and sticking to eso. Tab targeting is slow, boring, and lacks skill.

Dygz

mcstackerson wrote: »

This comes across as you arbitrarily drawing a line in the sand on where the player's influence ends. You also don't have the same intellect as your character and naturally wouldn't know the best way to use their abilities but that is something player's learn. I don't think you believe that your character should play itself.

Just like how someone who is playing a wizard and actively casting spells, if dodging is a part of a characters identity, I think player should play an active role if using it (if the game allows).

In an RPG, the player knowing the best way to use their abilities does not necessarily make their character better than another character. Some of that is going to be determined by Level and RNG.

If, like in NWO, Wizards have Dodge/Roll/Blink, we should expect to Wizards darting out of the way.
And we should also expect AoEs to mitigate some of that.
If caught by the AOE, we should expect RNG, stats and skill points to also mitigate the damage.

Just because a player has the intellect/knowledge to be a Master at Animal Husbandry, does not mean their Blacksmith will have what it takes to be a Master Blacksmith.

The line between character skill and player skill in RPGs is not arbitrary.
It's going to be a key aspect of the game design. There is wiggle room.
But the more focus there is on player skill rather than character skill - the farther away the game is from being an RPG.

Dreoh

Nerror wrote: »

Dreoh wrote: »

That is actually not true, and I'm not sure why you are making that argument.

"Chance" is not a core concept of MMOs, it's just a frequently used mechanic of (typically) older MMOs.

In fact, many MMO's don't use chance at all, and their combat works just fine.

And those chanceless MMOs also have stats, just not "dodge chance stat" or "accuracy stat", so I don't know why you're tying stats to chance either.

Edit: I mean, look at New World for the most recent example. It's an MMO with stats and no RNG and the combat (when latency is good and whether you like it's combat or not) works mostly exactly as intended.
It leaves nothing to chance, it has stats, and is an MMO.
GW2 (whether you like it or not) also is an example of an RNG-less (other than crits) MMO that has combat that is frequently lauded as peoples favorite MMO combat.

Chance is most certainly a huge part of MMORPG's in general Even when we narrow it down to combat and ignore all the other aspects of those games like loot and what-not.

You can't just say crit chance doesn't count. GW2 combat, while being way more action based than some others, still has a really impactful chance mechanic in that regard. If you have to narrow it down to specifically only talk about active evasion skills that's fine, but you can't just use that and say that chance isn't one of the core mechanics of the MMORPG genre in general.

I don't know NW, so maybe there is zero chance in combat. No crits, no nothing, just pure movement and static damage numbers without any range.

GW2 isn't one of those many MMOs without chance in combat, but you said "Many" so I assume you know others?

Nice evasion of the point by focusing on a pedantic argument about GW2 having a single instance of chance. Every single game has some form of RNG, it's such a pedantic argument for you to say "yea well you said no rng so that means absolutely none whatsoever".
I also never said "crit chance doesn't count" anywhere at all lol. Though I do think crit chance is a far lesser deciding factor of combat than dodge/accuracy is.
Sea of Thieves has RNG in it's fishing and ship spawn, does that mean RNG is a core concept of Sea of Thieves?

Chance is a core concept of gambling.

Chance is not a core concept of MMO's.

A core concept is something that is required. Chance is not required for an MMO to be an MMO.

The core concepts of MMO's includes "massively multiplayer" and "player interactivity". Those are two things that define an MMO and a game is not an MMO without. Before you get pedantic again, of course there are a few more core concepts of the genre but those are just examples.

Are you really telling me you are incapable of visualizing how a game can be an MMO without chance-based combat?

Merek

nidriks wrote: »

Merek wrote: »

TL;DR - I can't handle games that require me to use my brain in combat, please, allow me to fight at maximum potential with little to no effort.

No. If you can't handle having to manually acquire your target, stick to those old, dead games. The MMORPG genre is adapting for the better, so adapt to survive, old man.

What an ignorant reply. What's brains got to do with jumping around like a petrified rabbit?

Jumping around like a rabbit? That shouldn't be a concern with tab-target, once you've locked on, they're done for, don't be worried. Oh, unless you're saying that without it, you can't keep up, well, that's understandable.

And for everyone using FPS games as their definitive scapegoat it's old, very old. About as old as the mindset that MMO's require such old and dated gameplay to be what you perceive as good. FPS gamers don't push for action combat, it's MMO players that want a more immersive combat experience.

Noaani

Dreoh wrote: »

Are you really telling me you are incapable of visualizing how a game can be an MMO without chance-based combat?

I can visualize it.

It would be shit.

Dreoh

That's such an disingenuous statement I don't even know where to start.

You're essentially saying any game without any RNG is shit and there's no way to make a non-RNG game good.

Edit: I'm going to assume you were just being hyperbolic, there's no way anyone could believe that lol

Noaani

Dreoh wrote: »

That's such an disingenuous statement I don't even know where to start.

You're essentially saying any game without any RNG is shit and there's no way to make a non-RNG game good.

Edit: I'm going to assume you were just being hyperbolic, there's no way anyone could believe that lol

Without come form of chance, every time two players meet each other, they will know for certain who is going to win.

In such a scenario, the person that knows they are not going to win will simply do what they can to avoid the fight completely.

All MMO's need a roughly equal amount of character progression and player skill to be good, but they also need an amount of RNG in there as well.

I honestly can't imagine that anyone could believe otherwise.

Littlekenny21

Noaani wrote: »

Dreoh wrote: »

That's such an disingenuous statement I don't even know where to start.

You're essentially saying any game without any RNG is shit and there's no way to make a non-RNG game good.

Edit: I'm going to assume you were just being hyperbolic, there's no way anyone could believe that lol

Without come form of chance, every time two players meet each other, they will know for certain who is going to win.

In such a scenario, the person that knows they are not going to win will simply do what they can to avoid the fight completely.

All MMO's need a roughly equal amount of character progression and player skill to be good, but they also need an amount of RNG in there as well.

I honestly can't imagine that anyone could believe otherwise.

It's the skill that should decide which one should win... Not rng

And if they fight a second time they should be able to use what they learned about the opponent to make the second fight completely different.

Noaani

Littlekenny21 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Dreoh wrote: »

That's such an disingenuous statement I don't even know where to start.

You're essentially saying any game without any RNG is shit and there's no way to make a non-RNG game good.

Edit: I'm going to assume you were just being hyperbolic, there's no way anyone could believe that lol

Without come form of chance, every time two players meet each other, they will know for certain who is going to win.

In such a scenario, the person that knows they are not going to win will simply do what they can to avoid the fight completely.

All MMO's need a roughly equal amount of character progression and player skill to be good, but they also need an amount of RNG in there as well.

I honestly can't imagine that anyone could believe otherwise.

It's the skill that should decide which one should win... Not rng

And if they fight a second time they should be able to use what they learned about the opponent to make the second fight completely different.

You'll note that I did say that skill and progression should be the main factors.

However, RNG does need to be in the mix still.

Karthos

Action combat is the new fad. Everyone is very excited about it hence more games are using it.

Problem is, few games do it well

You ever find a good action combat game, it can be pretty fun, but it mostly comes down to preference in the end.

Dygz

Dreoh wrote: »

That's such an disingenuous statement I don't even know where to start.

You're essentially saying any game without any RNG is shit and there's no way to make a non-RNG game good.

Edit: I'm going to assume you were just being hyperbolic, there's no way anyone could believe that lol

No. You are being hyperbolic.
I did not say any game without RNG is shit.
I'm specifically referring to RPGs.
You seem to have the philosophy that all games are RPGs. Which is patently absurd.
You can't even differentiate between a survival game, an RPG and an FPS - which is pathetic.

PigyPoggo

Littlekenny21 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Dreoh wrote: »

That's such an disingenuous statement I don't even know where to start.

You're essentially saying any game without any RNG is shit and there's no way to make a non-RNG game good.

Edit: I'm going to assume you were just being hyperbolic, there's no way anyone could believe that lol

Without come form of chance, every time two players meet each other, they will know for certain who is going to win.

In such a scenario, the person that knows they are not going to win will simply do what they can to avoid the fight completely.

All MMO's need a roughly equal amount of character progression and player skill to be good, but they also need an amount of RNG in there as well.

I honestly can't imagine that anyone could believe otherwise.

It's the skill that should decide which one should win... Not rng

And if they fight a second time they should be able to use what they learned about the opponent to make the second fight completely different.

Except what you're really asking for here is a literal carbon copy of "Rock, Paper Scissors"

We *know* PvP will not be balanced for 1v1 play, it will be balanced for group play.
This means certain classes will have edges on others.
This means, in a world with no crits, no damage variance, no innate chances to dodge, no talents and skills that are proc based, you know the outcome.
Because player A's abilities are stronger than player B's abilities in this match up.

The outcome I see is one of two:

A) Classes are homogenized to the point that they're basically the same with different animation and RGB colouring.

You have to truly eclipse your opponent skill wise for it to matter.

Azherae

The discussion is divergent in ways that will lead to arguing over points that don't reflect reality.

No competitive game where positioning matters exists without RNG, and they don't rise beyond Rock-Paper-Scissors, they only 'control when and how often the Rock-Paper-Scissors interaction happens'.

MMOs traditionally just take it away from the players so that they aren't even playing the RPS themselves, but the rest is the same.

It is both true that MMOs always have meaningfully effective RNG in order to make the gameplay non-procedural, and that certain statistically derived Auto-RNG are unnecessary.

This is because what we all really want, from either side of the conversation, assuming that we are interested in any form of mobility combat that grants true agency... "Your RNG should not defeat my physical skill."

Those aiming attacks don't want their physical skill to just hit 'Evaded' on the opponent because of a number. Those who want to dodge don't want their physical skill to just 'not matter. because of Tab Target lock-on. Those of us who disagree with those things are probably having an entirely different argument'. Tab Target resolves this by removing the skill from both ends relative to certain things. Full Action combat resolves it by forcing the skill on both ends.

Those who aren't as skilled or whose classes don't suit 'forced skill on both ends' are more likely to want Tab Target, those who feel they are very skilled and whose classes match up with good aiming or dodging, tend to want Action Combat, but we're all probably trying to get to the same place.

Don't fall into the trap of arguing over something that you could probably come to enough of an agreement on, to guide the design, please. I'm legitimately begging ye all.

Marcet

Noaani wrote: »

Dreoh wrote: »

That's such an disingenuous statement I don't even know where to start.

You're essentially saying any game without any RNG is shit and there's no way to make a non-RNG game good.

Edit: I'm going to assume you were just being hyperbolic, there's no way anyone could believe that lol

Without come form of chance, every time two players meet each other, they will know for certain who is going to win.

In such a scenario, the person that knows they are not going to win will simply do what they can to avoid the fight completely.

All MMO's need a roughly equal amount of character progression and player skill to be good, but they also need an amount of RNG in there as well.

I honestly can't imagine that anyone could believe otherwise.

No, combat is about skill, not RNG, you can trust your skill and even if the other guy is more powerful than you, it has nothing to do with RNG. You can have % crits and what not, but combat without RNG is possible and good. You won't run cause you don't know if the other player is stronger and you can trust your skill in combat vs a more powerful player.

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