Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
lol
Some don't want a public roadmap because they believe the company should have to be held accountable for changes in the roadmap.
Others like me are asking for a roadmap because we want to see when something changes and what is changing.
As I said earlier in this thread; if you want a list of what is changing, that is basically everything. If you want to know when it will change - when it is ready.
Since we are realistically 2 - 3 years away from a released game, we don't need any more than that.
Summarizing:
Some don't want a public roadmap because they believe the company should have to be held accountable for changes in the roadmap.
Others like me are asking for a roadmap because we want to see when something changes and what is changing. And I would like to see that right now, not after the game is released.
They are working on all classes, all content, all combat systems, all 3D models, all textures, all zones, all systems, all factions, all sounds, all UI elements.
Each of these things will be finished when it is finished, and not sooner.
Too many gamers perceive schedules and roadmaps to be promises which end up being broken.
And, yes, one of the things gamers who become game devs eventually learn is that you can't be as transparent as you would like to be. Especially, once there is an experienced marketing lead on the team.
Everyone wants a public roadmap now. Just because people want something does not mean it's best to give them what they want.
We MIGHT get a roadmap after Nodes 3.
But younger people tend to recognize that times have changed, and this design approach is not the best in the long run. Companies who are open not only about their achievements but also about their mistakes, tend to have better results and a more loyal fanbase.
Just compare current WoW to current FF: Blizzard (world of warcraft) does everything without transparency, doesn't value user feedback, and strides down the path of "we know better", while Square Enix from Final Fantasy publicly apologizes for their mistakes, nuked their bad server and restarted. Which one is having better results?
But of course, that is only one example. I am not saying it is the best for every situation and every game. But in the same way, you cant say that hiding the roadmap is the best decision.
But I am comparing the 2 top MMO's in market share on the market right now, one with a public roadmap, the other without, and I prefer to believe in the one that is having more success.
I also prefer to believe in the development plan that most successful companies adopt nowadays, which is not based on "hide everything and develop everything behind closed doors" but rather on "be transparent and ask for feedback after every step". I think that is more important then the issues of handling some bad PR from time-to-time. If players are complaining, it is because they are interested. It is when they stop complaining that the company should be worried.
And last, but not least, Ashes of Creation is a crowdfunded project, is it not? Does it not owe transparency to the people who invested in it? It can't and shouldn't be compared to companies that do everything behind closed doors.
I totally understand where you are coming from, the only part I disagree with is this attitude that some are showing here, of "you guys have no idea what a roadmap is for or how marketing is done", when clearly many successful companies are not acting like that, with a lot of success while doing so.
Has nothing to do with changing times.
Steven is "younger". And learned the hard way that it's best not to have public roadmaps.
Missed dates are not "mistakes".
I have no clue what "companies" you are referring to.
Public roadmap is a way like others to communicate with the community. "the next two major thing we will be working on is those" and create a minihype around this for people waiting a lot of those features announced.
I wait with great impatience Silksong... what about communication from team cherry... ... ...
They didn't do too much communication from hollowknight either (if compared to other KS project) and even less from DLC. Was the game bad? i am not sure.
FFXIV, we never had any kind of public roadmap for any expansion. Neither any test server. end of year will be the 4th expansion. . .
And to finish, Repentance... a binding of isaac expansion, released after the "5 last DLC isaac will ever had" themselves after afterbirth+ "last expansion for binding of isaac" (Mc Millen is unable to stop himself
Public roadmap is just a way to do communication, like some teasing. most of "public beta".
All the announcement from IS (mainly steven) is another way, all are on wiki, allowing to know what we will have, when we will have.
The public roadmap ? look at alpha2 wiki page to know next thing to be added.
Yes, after digging deeper into the docs and videos I notice that most of the info is out there, it just isn't formated in a neat "ashesofcreation.com/roadmap" type of page. I would still prefer to have this in some better format, but I can live with it as is.
You can feel free to blame the people who slammed on Intrepid for not living up to their estimates. And they far outnumber you. Since they held back on their predictions there has been a lot less negativity.
It might be unfortunate for you, but the decision they made seems to be working. I too would like to see more information, and I understand that an estimate is an estimate and not a promise, but I can't blame them for not sticking their hand back in the fire to prevent getting burned again.
Why should Intrepid impose a timeframe on work that could well be delayed by totally unforeseen situations?
Why should they make it so you can not pay any attention to the game for months, then come along, check a list of what they had previously hoped to get done, and then criticize them if they haven't done it all?
If you want to be in a position to comment on how the games development is going, you should have to invest some of your own time in to the mix, watching the streams, listening to what they are talking about, understanding some of the issues they may have - not just read something that says they had originally planned to get a specific feature finished a month ago.
Now, again, in a live game with people actively playing and wanting new content to keep interested in the game, that is a different story. As is a game where people have bought in for 6 figure sums.
Ashes though, Ashes is neither of those things.
It is unreasonable to ask for a roadmap here. Most other MMO's didn't even have an official forum, Discord or active Reddit at the point in development that Ashes is currently in, let alone have people asking for roadmaps.
Nah, this is polite conversation.
You have obviously never played SC. Anyway, Irrelevant. A roadmap does not necessarily need to have a timeline associated with it. It can be as simple as This is what we have now, this is what's next, this is what is further down the road. Not a schedule per se, just what could be.
As somebody pointed out, there is a lot of information out there already however, it is also not asking to be "spoon fed" asking for a road map. A general overview of what is going on. Again, a timeline is not necessary. But then again, neither is arrogance, ad hominem attacks, or the barely veiled insults being thrown around this thread.
Star Citizen has people logging in to play it every day. This is the one factor that all games with a roadmap have in common.
Ashes doesn't have people logging in every day to play.
A general overview of what is going on is that Intrepid are making the entire game still. Everything. They can't distil that down any more than that.
A game like Star Citizen can, as they have much more of the base game in place than Ashes does.
At the absolute minimum, a game needs to have it's back end in order before considering a public roadmap - and Ashes does not yet have that.
What veil?
For me, I would like to know what is coming, so I know what is open to discussion.
There is not much use in talking about features that won't come in the near future, and also not much use talking about features that have already been decided upon and are under development (or already released).
If I can see what is on the horizon, I know what can still be influenced by the opinion of players, and can talk about these topics here on the forum.
You might think the disadvantages outweigh this, but be careful not to think that we are here to stand in the way or "attack the devs for delays".
The feeling I am getting in this forum is that some players here think "they have been doing a good job so far, so better not let these newbies influence our game or it will end up like [insert MMO]", and in this desperation, they attack anyone and everything.
This is exactly what ruined WoW: fanboys defending the company day and night against any criticism, fighting against each other while their game went to shit. The AoC is VERY interested in player feedback because they don't want to go down that same path. If they didn't want feedback, or only wanted feedback once the game is launched, they would close the forum until the game is launched. I don't know how much you know about development, but often it takes more work to change things than to get the right upfront, so it is important to talk about these issues so the game doesn't get delayed later.
No need to defend them, they are grown men and can fend for themselves.
Can't believe we are having this huge of an argument about A ROADMAP THAT ALREADY EXISTS.
Chill out guys, no one is here to steal your candy.
That isn't a roadmap.
If you look at it, all it is saying is that the game is going to carry on alpha testing, and at some point will move on to beta testing before going live. Because they are used to seeing it in games they have been actively playing (when a roadmap makes sense).
As to what is open to discussion - everything. Just remember that this discussion is with us players, not with Intrepid.
1) this is not a roadmap
2) while being against roadmap, i was one of those saying you to watch wiki... because all which is planned we already know is listed there and i already said that there was list of feature per test phase
to have vaguely a roadmap you have to watch the page of each test phase. Also, a roadmap like you presented yourself is far more detailed than a list of all things in alpha2 ...
What is open to discussion ? Anything, really. for this people in the week-end of pre-alpha1 (9-11 july) were already speaking about landscape... And also noone talk about balance between tank/mage/healer because anyone knows naturally it is useless
yes, you contributed to the conversation.
What's the point in continuing to argue about this if everyone has what they want? unless you have something to add to the conversation, consider leaving the link here as the last message, so other players can find it and we don't repeat the same argument next week.
Or add it at the end of your reply, contribute to the community.
Roadmap/release schedule:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Release_schedule
I have followed a very high number of "early access", "Alpha/Beta", "InDev", "Experimental release"... call it what you like. If I see a project that interests me, I normally get in on it early and watch it progress.
I have noticed over the years that the projects with a public road map tend to have better outcomes. The more detailed the public road map, the more seriously I take the devs and the more I respect them for the transparency and accountability.
It seems like the devs that use public road maps seem to stay on track more than the devs that don't. There is far less goofing around with side features and far more progressing towards the promised product.
I will say that it is not all sunshine and rainbows, though. Public road maps do create additional stress for the dev team and do limit creativity to some degree. That said, I still think it is better to have a detailed public road map than not.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
I know many companies in California have them, but I have can't find a case of anyone taking a company to court over stress caused by one.
Seems to me it would be valid there.
I know that for my own situation, I would never introduce a public roadmap, for this exact reason. I keep my team as stress free as I can (I act as a barrier between my team and anyone that may introduce stress). Now, we have an internal roadmap, but that is one that everyone with access to it (literally just the ~25 members of my team) understands is a best case scenario and not at all a requirement.
In fact, I often set times on some tasks that I know can't be done, simply so they are all accustom to not meeting times on our roadmap when we hit unexpected issues - it isn't a deal not meeting your best case target if no one else is meeting it either.
I don't think it is against any laws in the US. If any state was going to make it illegal, I would bet it would be California.
I don't know what industry you are in, but public road maps don't make sense for every industry or situation. I could see industries where extra stress is really dangerous and something to be avoided. Anything in aviation, for example.
In the case of game design, it seems like a little extra stress can be helpful in some cases. I know, everyone likes to be against "crunch" these days. It seems like the virtuous thing to do is say that you are against crunch. What they don't tell you is that hobbyist or Indy developers will spend 16-20 hours a day working on their games for months on end for free out of pure passion(I have done it myself).
Ultimately, it is up too intrepid to decide if a more detailed public road map and the added stress that comes from it would be beneficial to their project. Depending on their company culture, it could go both ways.
I still would say that the games I have seen use a detailed public road map have seemed to have better outcomes. I will admit that this is all totally anecdotal from my personal observations.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
No.
That information should only ever be made available to people in whole.
You should have to watch the entire livestream to understand the challenges they have faced, are facing and expect to face along side learning what it is they plan on working on.
By writing it down in that manner, they are giving people an easy path to gaining a portion of the information - they want people to have - and people will then complain if things don't go exactly how Intrepid hoped.
On the other hand, if you actually watch the livestreams, you get the understanding of why things didn't go as planned when they inevitably don't go as planned.
They don't want people to know what they are working on if those people don't also completely understand the challenges of making a game like Ashes (well, completely in relation to what Intrepid pass on).
It straight up is not good for them for people to come along, see a roadmap with multiple targets missed, or things taking longer than expected, without those people also having both invested their own time in to the games community, and given an understanding of why those things are the way they are.
No one has managed to answer the one simple question I have about a roadmap though - why do you want one?
Is it just so you can jump in every few months to quickly see how things are going? Because that is the only reason I can see for people wanting one for a game that is in development (as opposed to a game that is live). Clearly, there is no reason or motivation at all for Intrepid to do that.
Agree it's irrelevant yet still speak to it. Amazing.
You realize you don't need to white knight so hard right? No one is bashing the game just making suggestions. You act like it's a personal attack on you that people think of things you can't. Calm down, it's ok lil fella. It's ok. Take some deep breaths, maybe try Yoga.
Your lack of maturity and inability to have arational discussion really does this forum no favors, it would probably be more productive and fun was you not part of it. Just food for thought.
A back end is not required, a road map is really simple and would be very helpful. As I said in my original post, the information is out there, it would be convenient if it were just consolidated in one place. Just like it would be convenient if you saw yourself out of the conversation. We get it, you disagree for no good reason, rinse, repeat.
/yawn