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Melee Combat Feedback Post 7/30 Livestream
ZacHank
Member
I'm not in the AlphaOne, but have generally agreed with the feedback that melee combat looks like you're not really in control of your character. After watching the stream and learning that the original Apocalypse melee combat was criticized for feeling floaty, I think I can identify better what seems off about melee combat to me.
As someone mentioned in the Twitch chat, there doesn't seem to be weight behind the melee weapons (much like WoW). In my opinion, the combat that commits your character to moving forward does look like a loss of control and SIMULTANEOUSLY floaty while the Apoc melee combat only looks floaty to me. So, while Apoc doesn't look great, it is better than melee combat in its current state in AlphaOne.
Understanding that now, I have a few suggestions. One or all of them may help melee feel more impactful.
1. Add better reactions for enemies being hit in melee combat. This could be armor/flesh movement at the place of impact or perhaps a generic animation that makes the enemy appear more like it's being hit without changing the effect of combat.
2. Keep the movement, but tone it way way down. Dark Souls is another game franchise which commits combat to a forward movement, but it is much more subtle and feels great. Ashes substantially moves your character forward with each slash. If this is toned down to be a much shorter distance, that may help give a sense of weight without making you feel like you lost control of your character during the animation.
3. Change the animation of the character to give the appearance that their weapon weighs more. Currently, in both combat modes (Apoc and current), tab targeting and action combat looks like the weapon weighs near nothing. I'm wondering if it's the animation that gives that feeling. Perhaps, without changing the timing of combat, make the animation give the feeling that swinging the weapon requires more effort. Perhaps stalling the beginning of the animation and speeding up the end of the animation. Perhaps a sweat effect or a bulging of muscles (not a fan of that last one, but just throwing it out there).
4. Change the sound cues to make it sound like our character requires a little more effort in swinging their weapon. Not too much, because it could be annoying, but perhaps more grunting. Also not a huge fan of this on paper, but thought it was worth mentioning.
Discuss! Maybe I'm totally wrong about this, or maybe I'm missing a suggestion that may give that weight to melee combat.
As someone mentioned in the Twitch chat, there doesn't seem to be weight behind the melee weapons (much like WoW). In my opinion, the combat that commits your character to moving forward does look like a loss of control and SIMULTANEOUSLY floaty while the Apoc melee combat only looks floaty to me. So, while Apoc doesn't look great, it is better than melee combat in its current state in AlphaOne.
Understanding that now, I have a few suggestions. One or all of them may help melee feel more impactful.
1. Add better reactions for enemies being hit in melee combat. This could be armor/flesh movement at the place of impact or perhaps a generic animation that makes the enemy appear more like it's being hit without changing the effect of combat.
2. Keep the movement, but tone it way way down. Dark Souls is another game franchise which commits combat to a forward movement, but it is much more subtle and feels great. Ashes substantially moves your character forward with each slash. If this is toned down to be a much shorter distance, that may help give a sense of weight without making you feel like you lost control of your character during the animation.
3. Change the animation of the character to give the appearance that their weapon weighs more. Currently, in both combat modes (Apoc and current), tab targeting and action combat looks like the weapon weighs near nothing. I'm wondering if it's the animation that gives that feeling. Perhaps, without changing the timing of combat, make the animation give the feeling that swinging the weapon requires more effort. Perhaps stalling the beginning of the animation and speeding up the end of the animation. Perhaps a sweat effect or a bulging of muscles (not a fan of that last one, but just throwing it out there).
4. Change the sound cues to make it sound like our character requires a little more effort in swinging their weapon. Not too much, because it could be annoying, but perhaps more grunting. Also not a huge fan of this on paper, but thought it was worth mentioning.
Discuss! Maybe I'm totally wrong about this, or maybe I'm missing a suggestion that may give that weight to melee combat.
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Comments
Looks great keep it up!
I would prefer tab target like combat, with a lot of of abilities
Before I get to the point I want to thank you all for amazing work on our hopefully future dream game!
From todays stream there was discussion which melee combat people enjoy most:
movement locked combat or free movement combat.
I personally prefer free movement melee combat it feels more fluid and enjoyable but at same time at certain situations locked movement melee combat makes more sense. If it would be possible to make mix between both systems I believe it would be amazing.
Example:
Moving around + quick tap with mouse1 = fast attack.
Moving around + holding mouse1 = slow but stronger attack.
Moving forward + quick tap with mouse1 = locked movement forward fast attack.
Moving forward + holding mouse1 = locked movement slow but strong attack.
I believe having diverse complex base combat mechanics is very important and would give more diversity to game.
Thank you for your attention!
Rokra
My issue is simple. The lunging motion was so universally disliked, that I don't feel like the A/B test, as shown, resolves my concerns, at least. I can't 'vote for' lunging rooted attacks unless it also incorporates the other directions (strafe, any ability to just attack in front without moving but with the overall leg animation and such still locked).
I don't know if the plan is actually 'Option A is lunges, Option B is free movement' or if you were planning to go as far as 'Option A is WAD-swings and Option B is free movement', but I don't feel like it's a fair comparison without this.
It didn't really occur to me before that with the free movement, one loses lunges on certain classes, but that actually also concerns me. Yet I don't want to 'say I want A' just for the lunges if the option is 'all lunges, no sideways'.
Watching Steven fight the 'boss' in the video also made me feel much more strongly why I might prefer the WASD style, the encounter design type that is emergent from free movement isn't preferable to me as a whole. Basically, I can simulate that I'd have much less fun against that sort of enemy, again to the point of wanting lunges, but not enough to ask others to play with Lunges but no Sideways.
I hope there's time to consider either a change or a secondary A/B test build where the Sideways and 'one stationary strike' is possible, to compare to the free movement.
I generally don't enjoy PvP in games with too much free movement for other reasons, but one thought that comes to mind from watching was that the movement speed didn't seem meaningfully reduced either, so I expect the problems I usually have with free movement in PvP to all definitely pop up.
I'm feeling pretty sorry for the 'nitpick' here given that I know everyone's working hard, especially working hard to get everything done in the limited Alpha One time availability, but I just don't have much 'confidence' in the test, since there are likely to be so many others like me who 'end up on the fence' because the full 'Option A' (let's just call it A) isn't even available.
Thanks for any consideration you can give, as always.
~Rae
With the coming alpha test we get to decide if we like the free movement or rootmotion, but seperated like that, both systems are going to make people unhappy.
In my opinion they are approaching the thematic in a unnecessarily binar way that cannot result into the best solution.
It is clear free movement gives great control, while rootmotion gives a great feeling of weight.
Clearly there are different people with different preferences as in some like more control and some like more weight.
However there is (almost) noone that would specificaly want free movement for it to feel floaty or root motion to be out of control.
So the real question they should tackle is:
Can we put control into the rootmotion type combat better or can we put a significant feeling of weight into the free movement better?
What i personaly would imagine as the best solution would be if you have certain parts within* an rootmotion animation where you could change or adjust** and snapshot direction and maybe even movementspeed*** to varying degrees depending on the individual attack.
*(like at the beginning, between individual swings of double attacks, or specific animation parts where the character shifts its weight on his feet etcetc.)
**not only by moving the camera but with the directional key combinations 'a aw wd d as sd' aswell.
***(Speed could be adjusted by taking the initial character speed and the duration of directional buttons pressed during the previous animation sections)
I know that means a bit of extra work compared to just floaty or stiff animations, but when you make a game of this size probably its worth going the extra mile with the combat system.
I do like the feeling of being able to wade through opponents and move along with your weapon, especially in large group settings, and the old movement-based system gave lots of options to achieve that, but I think that shifting to this free movement style creates other problems. Steven demonstrated it with a greatsword, and having a greatsword have the same "weight" as e.g. a one-handed sword or a mace in terms of maneuverability seems really strange. The change solves the main issue I was having with the combat in terms of consistency, but it creates lots of others in terms of not just immersion, but also in making combat less committed, especially in PvP where I anticipate engagements in sieges will start to feel very strange compared to what they have been so far.
Lets break down what makes combat feel impactful:
- particle effects to indicate where you hit the enemy
- screen shake (very minor) to indicate the size of attack. (a war hammer should have more shake than a dagger)
- the actual animation of the attack
- hit pause (fighting game term) Basically a small amount of frames where the animation is frozen in place, to convey to the player that the attack hit something.
Lets break down what movement options exist to allow players to feel in control:
- move freely at all time (as shown in the live stream)
- Use root motions to move while fighting (lunge attacks, jump back fade slash, etc)
- dodge rolls to exit root motions animations (ie: allow a player to choose to cancel a windup animation or follow through)
With the above options in mind, what effects do each of these have on AUTO ATTACKS in an MMO?
Screen Shake:
Should be very minor if included, but probably not be needed. Players will want to maximize the up time of auto attacks, and do we really need the screen shaking the whole time?
Particle Effects:
Essential to any satisfying attack. Probably no need to be over the top (as we've already seen them tone these down)
Animation:
Should be pleasant enough to watch for hours, since players will be auto attacking the most. Doesn't need to be very flashy (save those for the skills).
Hit Pause:
I consider this essential to removing that feeling of "floaty-ness". More hit pause for more damaging moves. (this probably only needs to be a few frames at most)
The combination of screen shake and hit pause for a BIG hit feels really good. Now do auto attacks need it? I would say yes - at least for the stronger hits of the attack chain.
Free Movement:
Being able to freely move during combat is great for player control...but it also ADDS to the floaty feeling.
Root Motions:
Having a locked animation for an attack really has potential for adding that meaty feeling to combat. But I think the biggest flaw with the current root motions are that they are too drastic. For one full attack chain, why do I move SO far?
Dodge Roll Canceling:
If root motions exists, then this is essential; it allows for more player control, while not adding to the "floaty-ness".
If free movement stays...what will dodge roll's purpose be? Invincibility frames? If this is the only purpose...I personally don't see the need for it to stay. (just make dodge roll a skill for some classes, that interacts with their kit)
TL;DR
- I think there is probably a compromise somewhere between free movement and root motions. I'm excited to A/B test these styles!
- A form of hit pause should be included somewhere (at the very least some of the bigger hitting attacks).
In general, the normal attacks need to be toned down. Keep the animation design but make the swing effect much less. Make the 'fury' slower. The normal attacks overshadow the abilities right now.
I definitely like the feel of New World combat.
New World AI reactions are nice, too, because they make movement a requirement.
If I were to make any kind of suggestion that would try and merge the two styles together ( I thought about this recently while playing Monster Hunter World and coming to terms that the forced movement was here to stay in AoC) is to have some sort of weight attached to a weapons abilities or final attack in the combo. Free movement up until the final hit in the combo (there may be something special here). You could also add weight to specific abilities where it makes sense. If I want to lob my weapon that will then bounce to two additional targets, that's going to cost me movement. Adding risk to the attack style I am utilizing.
If this is done in a balanced way, the final combo hit can be something that players work on to time dodging for. Just a thought. Either way I am ALL FOR freedom of movement as much as possible. Especially in pvp and to allow for better balancing during all encounters from mob, to boss, to player.
Now let us weave in combat abilities while using the auto attack function so we don't have to have the added step of removing our finger from holding the Q/LMB down. Please : )
"Toggle" is the A/B test, so that we can rapidly compare the two within the same scenario.
As for the free movement, I don't like it at all. Camera control is a skill, but not what I play MMOs for. Also, if there aren't drastic changes to the ability arc, it will cause even more problems, particularly when lag is in play. the mid range, it will just make it a pain to get close to begin with. Movement should be a choice that affects my positioning and both my and my opponent's options, not just a matter of spinning my camera around as my opponent spins around me. The attack cone Ashes uses would just make this not matter. You can't change it either, because then it would just start to fail. I'm simply not interested grinding my camera control skill, just because I choose to use a weapon with a smaller attack cone.
I would argue that camera control is still a required skill with both systems. Pvp everywhere, you must be able to keep your head on a swivel and know who/what is around you at all times. Rogues be creeping in every bush. I honestly don't understand what you mean about lag being an issue. Would it not be an issue regardless of what style combat is implemented? Positioning, again, is important regardless of what combat style is implemented. At least with freedom of movement, you can reposition with your natural reflexes and not when the 1's and 0's allow you to move.
The attack cone is even more pivotal with freedom of movement because now you get to control where the cone is landing. This is good for both new and experienced players. New players don't have to learn where they land on an automated root position and can instead direct their attacks where they wanted them to be in the first place. Also, the current abilities will absolutely be changing. We only have 3 classes. The will be drastic changes to many, many aspects of AoC before release.
I have some thoughts on the new melee combat system. A few other people in the thread have already touched on this, but I feel that there are some advantages to the root motion system which may be lost by switching to a full split body model.
While the forward-lunging attack strings currently in the alpha might not be ideal, I liked the idea of attacks having a deliberate, committed motion. Part of what I like about using heavy weapons in RPGs is needing to account for the period of vulnerability after making an attack, and I worry that the proposed split body combat model could detract from this. I'd feel a bit silly swinging around a Greataxe if I could move around freely mid-swing.
I think that there's probably a mid-point between rigidly-defined attack strings and complete freedom of movement while attacking. It might be possible to achieve the intended fluidity of the split body system without compromising the impactful nature of attacks by lowering movement speed mid-attack, or restricting the range of angles where a player can make a followup attack.
What I'd optimally prefer is a system in which I'm able to change my direction of movement in-between attacks, but remain locked in place while my sword or axe swing is animating. I'd also like being able to access lunging motions which carry my character forward, or lateral slashes that move to the side by hitting a directional key + my attack button, as this could allow for greater control over positioning, while maintaining committed attack animations.
I've been practicing Tai Chi Chuan for about 8 years now, and one of the first things I learned is that all combat stances and all movements - attack or defense - start from your feet. Issues with your footwork will affect the rest of your body, and our brains instinctively know this; "if it makes you feel uncomfortable to be in [this martial arts stance], that's because your feet are in the wrong place" is one of the most important things beginners in Tai Chi need to learn, and combat animations feel floaty at the moment for a similar reason.
When attacking while advancing forward, each step should feel committed; when you attack in real life, with or without a weapon, the power and stability you have are only as good as your footwork - having a rooted stance is very important, otherwise it is super easy to lose your balance and get knocked around by your opponent.
So, quite literally, to fix combat animations, you gotta start from the ground up.
I definitely believe melee combat should include skills that lock you into a path- eg charges/dashes/whirls with significant potential impact, as these should require skill to land and carry a risk element of losing positioning. However for more low impact and short range slashes/ cleaves/ stabs players should not be propelled forward or locked into movement (as a general thesis for fluid combat not a universal rule).
I can say from playing WvW in GW2 that in anywhere from a 10vs10 to 50vs50 fight where two groups have to rapidly and cohesively navigate around aoe damage/ conditions, the opposing groups melee train and any physical structures that movement locking on simple attacks would be a nightmare and make playing very frustrating, this is not to mention other movement impairing effects like stuns, dazes, knockdown, pulls and pushes (not sure how many of those apply to aoc but you get the point). Obviously ashes is looking to do 250vs250 sieges and lots of group pvp so this is a very relevant issue across the game.
There are many ways to make combat feel impactful and weighted without locking movement paths. Certainly the aforementioned slashes and stabs could in some cases slightly slow the players movement as they swing back, or be restricted in angular movement so a player can’t pull a crazy turn or spin as they use the attack, obvs not an exhaustive list but just a demonstration of how mechanics can work to reduce floatiness without restricting player control too much while still adding skill and risk to the ability.
Would like to hear some opposing thoughts and start a discussion!
For activated abilities though, there should probably be some that lock you into an animation and some that don't, and you can use that as a balancing lever. You should also be able to define whether animations can be cancelled and have that vary based on the ability. Same thing in terms of buffering. I would look at a MOBA like league for examples of how that can work, as it can add a lot of depth to combat.
Root animation is the way to go, but Intrepid is making a lot of mistakes to make it feel bad.
First of all, and most importantly, attack direction should be determined by WASD input, not by mouse rotation. Players feel more free when they can attack in 8 directions instead of straight forward. In my opinion, this is a no-brainer.
Secondly, at no time should you be locked into and fully committed to one attack direction. You need to be able to change your attack trajectory between every sword swing. Your first attack should not determine the direction of all your subsequent combo attacks. Depending upon your WASD input, your character should pivot and change rotation between attacks. This allows for much greater freedom of movement.
Lastly, melee attack animations absolutely need to be cancelable. Sprinting/Dashing, rolling, jumping, and casting abilities should all interrupt root motion attacks. You need to be able to make sudden changes in movement to feel like you have control over your character. This is also contingent upon Intrepid setting up better dashing and dodging animation and keybinds, which currently leave much to be desired. Animation canceling is a trade-off between realism, but it's a pivotal choice for combat games in order to make them both feel good and be competitive.
It all comes down to allowing the player more control over their character's trajectory to make sudden changes in movement, and I hope Intrepid realizes this before defaulting to lazy strafing combat where your character is basically just a slow moving turret waving a sword around.
I disagree when it comes to games with pvp as it becomes too easy to move out of player attacks which causes the game to become too defensive. I have felt this in the with the current alpha system where i'm stuck doing one attack, stopping, catching back up to my opponent, and repeat.
What you seem to recommend is them changing how there auto attacks works and add different attacks based off what wasd button they are pressing. I'm not against this but don't think it solves the problem.
I do like root motion and think there should be abilities with it but prefer the current system of it not locking you in.
Before this change, there was also a recommendation of adding root motion to certain attacks in the combo which i also liked. It would be interesting to try a system where the first few attacks aren't constrained but third one uses root motion. This would also fit with how their root motion attacks where working where the first two were usually basic attacks but would lead into a bigger attack, whether it be the greatsword whirlwind or the great axe/club slam.
3D PVP fighting game, but can't say more.
I didn't say anything about adding more attack animations, so I don't know where you got that idea. It's just a matter of changing directionality through rotation of the character. Most 3D platformers with fighting implement this exact system, and it's not very out there. Genshin Impact, despite issues people may have with other things in the game, is a recent title that's been highly praised for its combat by having a good implementation of this system. Every WoW player I've seen on Twitch, even being as averse to Eastern aesthetics as they are, has still praised that game for its combat.
Genshin Impact combat video.
Hitboxes in games with abilities are typically large enough so that you can't just dodge every attack with ease.
My opinion is that combat needs to be as fluid as possible and as responsive as possible, while not becoming an FPS game or a repetitive/tiring button press simulator.
Like I always say, I'd rather have good tab target combat than bad action combat. Last but not least, it might be too early to really describe how the combat feels because AFAIK combat has not been the focus yet, classes don't have too many skills and some classes aren't even in the game yet.
You should be slowed down similar to when using wand while attacking, the movement speed feels to fast that it lacks a bit of realism to it. Currently, the melee is way to mobile that it would be unfair for the casters.
In addition to that, you should be able to animation cancel bilities with a Dodge action. Because nothing is more frustrating than committing an attack in an unfortune time and not bw able to evade enemy attacks. This will definitely increase the feel of freedom while in combat
What do you think about slowing movement speed to 75%-80% of normal speed while still having free movement during the auto attack (for example)? The wand auto attack does feel really good but you are also able to shoot from really far away. Current system allowed for a mage to kite a tank with ease (and it sucked). If the ranged movement is slowed slightly SLOWER than a melee's penalty, this may make balancing much easier while still creating a fluid combat system.
I agree that dodge should cancel everything and let you move any direction.
Eso did a terrible job at this.
They allowed the dmg output by dodge cancelling and block cancelling.
The melee combat with the 2 handed sword does appear to be better at a first impressions with the white ambient blur effect. I'll check out some streams this week-end.
Also wanted to say that the size of that sword is decent. Many melee players are going to want to be able to see their weapon as it is going to showcase their presence on the battlefield.
I;m not suggesting big buster blades or oversized weapons, but they do need to have an appealing size to them based on weapon class. short sword, broad sword, long sword, great sword, etc.
I've said this before on the forums:
If you press an action key, that ability should be performed regardless of a target.
Does the ability require a target? if so, why? it is a tracking ability?
is there a way to have the cross hair have an indicator for lock-ons such as a colour change?
I think the 90's to early 2000's tab targetting examples such as wow where you need to have a target and be in range is an outdated mechanic which many are still quite familiar with and there is nothing wrong with that.
Having the option to hit tab to select a target, should be in the game.
Being able to hit an action and perform it with a target within reason, should be in the game.
If you perform an action and continue to mash the button into a combo and relative animation, that's the players fault for being a button masher imo. We've all done it, lol
The free movement weapons attacks is gonna be so much better than the current system, already can tell i won't be be toggling the rooted attacks on after this gets implemented.
(No more taking 2-5 steps back to press a dmg ability if you play a melee cleric)
Now just add the ability to press abilities again while you hold your left mouse down (used to be able to do this and it played alot better)
Also spells/abilities/projectiles should go in the direction you are aiming and not auto home on target (i'll give a few examples)
Example 1
I have 2 people infront of me, 1 person little bit to the left, 1 little bit to the right
I put my crosshair on the left person and press Castigation (cleric whip) and mid animation i decide i want to switch target to the right person to dmg them so i put my crosshair on them.
Even tho i have my crosshair on the right person before the dmg goes off, my whip hits the left person because i ''targeted'' them when i pressed the ability (currently), the dmg should go to the right person at this point.
Example 2
I have a person infront of me, i press Divine Censure (cleric spear) then i do a 90 or 180 degree turn mid animation because i want to throw the spear somewhere else, the spear auto missiles to the person that was infront of me.
every ability has an animation. Being able to cancel the ability mid motion outside of stuns or cc's just doesn't really make sense in fantasy or realism.
Being able to run and hack and slash in any direction just doesn't really make sense where the torso goes one way but the legs are going another.
In relation to games like dark souls, if you're doing a weapon art or something, there isn't much you can do once the abilities action is commenced and performed because of the fluid motion that animation needs to be performed by doing so.
You can still turn in relative allowance but no broken mechanics that dont make sense and come off as cheesy combat.
Example:
if you're doing a whirl wind, you're animation should not stop half way because you're mashing cleave.
Your character needs to face the relative direction that combat animation is being performed at.
This gives the players control where their attacks goes.