Okay, while I'm not in Alpha 1 (I will be in Alpha 2 though), I have been watching a lot of content and paying attention. Honestly, Intrepid just needs to drop the action combat junk altogether and go back to Tab targeting. Face it, it wasn't the combat system that killed WOW, it was the years of shit content. Something like AA of GW2 would be fine, especially with all of the other revolutionary systems that are in the design and need work to get right. The more I see, lately anyway, the more I'm afraid that AoC is going to be less the "MMORPG we have been waiting for" that I've been following for the last 4 tears with great anticipation, and more the "game that tried to be everything to everyone and failed at all of it". With all of the truly great new systems, like Nodes, etc. in the works, there is no need to reinvent the wheel on an aspect of MMORPGs that basically works just fine. And if the "new and improved" isn't perfect could sink an otherwise excellent game.
I just played with it too Khronus. 1000 times better. Does it need polish? yeah. Could some things be done to make it more likeable to the root movement folks? I hope so. But it feels so much better. Lightyears.
Finally had a chance to play the game with the split body combat (I've been out of town). This game feels LIGHT YEARS better with free movement. I don't care how fat the swing feels compared to how fun free movement will be in the end product. I'm a simple dude. Let me move, hit people and mitigate damage for my raid. People out here talking about intricate combo systems, heavy movements, "immersion through combat" in an mmo........come on. All aboard the freedom train.
Free movement during combat, the "hybrid" combat can include left click to attack, right click to block (or possibly a secondary style of attack based on classes/weapons?), and a dodge while attacks deal damage based on an arc or some sort of pattern (again, based on classes and weapons). This right here would keep me in game for years.
But why is it fun? I absolutely believe that you are having more fun. I don't want you to lose that fun. But your current words make it sound like all you want is to be able to move.
Not 'make sure an enemy can't hit you with dynamic attacks'. Not 'make decisions based on range'. Again, this is only from what you've said. If you're content just 'being able to move at all', then I actually think you are who @Ugoogee was trying to appeal to by just leaving both systems in (which is possible IF all you want is to be able to move around).
I hope and expect that Bow, Wand, and Spellbook would stay as Split Body no matter what happens, and it probably doesn't matter if 1H Sword and Mace just keep the 'can toggle this'. You're, by your own admission, simpler and less likely to get bored.
@Okeydoke - It's easy to keep saying 'most' MMO players want X or Y, but according to Cypher, even the polls from Intrepid themselves sometimes indicate it's not that simple.
It's been repeatedly said that the game will have 'a reasonable' number of Abilities. I expect 20 tops, and even 20 would be a lot. I expect more than 10, but some would be Weapon Skills that are close range.
As for your link, I don't know how up to date that is. Intrepid would have to clarify if they still intend to use the 'Focus' system, which leads to a different style of play altogether (yay Skillchains plz?)
Given that most mmo's have ability focused combat I assume that's what most mmo players want. I could be wrong. We all want different things, and we also want innovation and new spins, so it's an ever evolving thing. But that is my assumption currently.
The focus system sounds like exactly the system ESO used to build up your ultimate.
Given that most mmo's have ability focused combat I assume that's what most mmo players want. I could be wrong. We all want different things, and we also want innovation and new spins, so it's an ever evolving thing. But that is my assumption currently.
The focus system sounds like exactly the system ESO used to build up your ultimate.
In my experience MMOs are relatively evenly split between 'lots of abilities' and 'specific lines on which you can occasionally activate abilties'.
One important thing is that if the weapon Focus system is still in, it means that Weapon Skills are likely to be tied to it, which will make it more like FFXI, which will be good, but also mean that the number of abilities one has available to just use 'on demand' will be even smaller.
As an FFXI fan, I obviously wouldn't complain to see Weapon Skills come back into a game, I have already stated that I consider them literally the best MMORPG mechanic of all time.
But their appearance in Ashes would have a massive number of implications, and I feel that if they were going to have them, we might have seen some sign of it by now.
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
“Combat is the most tactile system in the game. It's the thing you will experience most often; and outside of the systems and mechanics that are going to be present for the overarching core gameplay loop, combat needs to feel responsive. It needs to not feel floaty. It needs to feel mobile. It needs to be fluid. It needs to give a feeling of satisfaction. The audio components, the effects components, the animations themselves, the types of skills and those types of things: All of those are really our objective in fine-tuning the approach for our combat in Ashes of Creation.” – Steven Sharif
Pulled from the wiki while looking for something else. The part in bold seems pretty relevant in this thread.
1
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The plan is to keep Active abilities on the hotbar fairly small. Probably between 10 and 20.
Weapon Skills will most probably combo.
Whether Focus is still planned is up in the air. It was in the PAX 2017 design, but that's changed enough we can't be sure.
Finally had a chance to play the game with the split body combat (I've been out of town). This game feels LIGHT YEARS better with free movement. I don't care how fat the swing feels compared to how fun free movement will be in the end product. I'm a simple dude. Let me move, hit people and mitigate damage for my raid. People out here talking about intricate combo systems, heavy movements, "immersion through combat" in an mmo........come on. All aboard the freedom train.
Free movement during combat, the "hybrid" combat can include left click to attack, right click to block (or possibly a secondary style of attack based on classes/weapons?), and a dodge while attacks deal damage based on an arc or some sort of pattern (again, based on classes and weapons). This right here would keep me in game for years.
But why is it fun? I absolutely believe that you are having more fun. I don't want you to lose that fun. But your current words make it sound like all you want is to be able to move.
Not 'make sure an enemy can't hit you with dynamic attacks'. Not 'make decisions based on range'. Again, this is only from what you've said. If you're content just 'being able to move at all', then I actually think you are who @Ugoogee was trying to appeal to by just leaving both systems in (which is possible IF all you want is to be able to move around).
I hope and expect that Bow, Wand, and Spellbook would stay as Split Body no matter what happens, and it probably doesn't matter if 1H Sword and Mace just keep the 'can toggle this'. You're, by your own admission, simpler and less likely to get bored.
@Okeydoke - It's easy to keep saying 'most' MMO players want X or Y, but according to Cypher, even the polls from Intrepid themselves sometimes indicate it's not that simple.
It's been repeatedly said that the game will have 'a reasonable' number of Abilities. I expect 20 tops, and even 20 would be a lot. I expect more than 10, but some would be Weapon Skills that are close range.
As for your link, I don't know how up to date that is. Intrepid would have to clarify if they still intend to use the 'Focus' system, which leads to a different style of play altogether (yay Skillchains plz?)
Toss dynamic attacks into the trash can. free motion combat is as dynamic as it needs to be. Players have a problem with using proper rotations or positioning for some reason. Give us a block and a dodge and this is already an evolved version of wow's combat system that I feel is strong enough to be consider the best version of what wow could never offer.
I don't only want to be able to move but I damn well expect it. Free movement for melee should be an expectation of all players. This is not dark souls. This is not monster hunter world. Why do we need to bind ourselves to this shit idea for slow weighted attacks? Action is action. I want to move around and slash away and weave in my abilities when the time is right.
I paid $500 for alpha 1 and honestly didn't log in much because the melee combat was garbage and I grew tired of it after the first week. Is that on me? Absolutely, but I didn't feel in control of my own character. At the end of the day, this is the single biggest problem for Intrepid to overcome. Zerging is a close second but combat needs to be laid out on the table and dissected until they figure out what is what.
Also, bow, wand and spellbook staying split body while everything else having root motion is the most cancer idea I have seen. Going to be real fun when tanks start running around with wands because they get endlessly kited.
Finally had a chance to play the game with the split body combat (I've been out of town). This game feels LIGHT YEARS better with free movement. I don't care how fat the swing feels compared to how fun free movement will be in the end product. I'm a simple dude. Let me move, hit people and mitigate damage for my raid. People out here talking about intricate combo systems, heavy movements, "immersion through combat" in an mmo........come on. All aboard the freedom train.
Free movement during combat, the "hybrid" combat can include left click to attack, right click to block (or possibly a secondary style of attack based on classes/weapons?), and a dodge while attacks deal damage based on an arc or some sort of pattern (again, based on classes and weapons). This right here would keep me in game for years.
But why is it fun? I absolutely believe that you are having more fun. I don't want you to lose that fun. But your current words make it sound like all you want is to be able to move.
Not 'make sure an enemy can't hit you with dynamic attacks'. Not 'make decisions based on range'. Again, this is only from what you've said. If you're content just 'being able to move at all', then I actually think you are who @Ugoogee was trying to appeal to by just leaving both systems in (which is possible IF all you want is to be able to move around).
I hope and expect that Bow, Wand, and Spellbook would stay as Split Body no matter what happens, and it probably doesn't matter if 1H Sword and Mace just keep the 'can toggle this'. You're, by your own admission, simpler and less likely to get bored.
@Okeydoke - It's easy to keep saying 'most' MMO players want X or Y, but according to Cypher, even the polls from Intrepid themselves sometimes indicate it's not that simple.
It's been repeatedly said that the game will have 'a reasonable' number of Abilities. I expect 20 tops, and even 20 would be a lot. I expect more than 10, but some would be Weapon Skills that are close range.
As for your link, I don't know how up to date that is. Intrepid would have to clarify if they still intend to use the 'Focus' system, which leads to a different style of play altogether (yay Skillchains plz?)
Toss dynamic attacks into the trash can. free motion combat is as dynamic as it needs to be. Players have a problem with using proper rotations or positioning for some reason. Give us a block and a dodge and this is already an evolved version of wow's combat system that I feel is strong enough to be consider the best version of what wow could never offer.
I don't only want to be able to move but I damn well expect it. Free movement for melee should be an expectation of all players. This is not dark souls. This is not monster hunter world. Why do we need to bind ourselves to this shit idea for slow weighted attacks? Action is action. I want to move around and slash away and weave in my abilities when the time is right.
I paid $500 for alpha 1 and honestly didn't log in much because the melee combat was garbage and I grew tired of it after the first week. Is that on me? Absolutely, but I didn't feel in control of my own character. At the end of the day, this is the single biggest problem for Intrepid to overcome. Zerging is a close second but combat needs to be laid out on the table and dissected until they figure out what is what.
Also, bow, wand and spellbook staying split body while everything else having root motion is the most cancer idea I have seen. Going to be real fun when tanks start running around with wands because they get endlessly kited.
I just didn't want to assume that it wasn't possible to meet you halfway or something. As I've said many times, I'm naturally toxic so I've learned not to assume other people's opinions are 'no, I don't care about what you want, your idea of fun is trash' until they explicitly say that.
No sarc, no negativity when I ask, can I assume that your response is actually saying that? It doesn't make much sense to engage on nuance or specifics if so, and I'm sure you don't want to waste your time either.
I feel like the thing that's making people lean more towards the Free Motion Melee Combat is because people have been stuck playing a clunkier unpolished version of Root Motion Melee Combat that is seen and done well in other games and are now finally able to play a combat mode that feels familiar to what's expected in this type of game.
It's like playing a Devil May Cry game but the player is forced to move and fight with Skyrim melee combat. Sure it can work but something is going to feel off and maybe even lackluster. But if you toggled a switch to allow the player to fight like how Dante normally would then of course you're going to have a better experience.
This is the kind of situation that we're trying to discuss and improve. Based on my metaphor the questions Intrepid Studios are asking are: People that enjoy Skyrim melee combat, how can we improve it if it was permanently implemented into a Devil May Cry game? People that enjoy playing like Dante, why do you like it and what else would you like to see improved if it was permanently implemented into a Devil May Cry game?
My question to those questions would be, why not have a polished version of both?
It sucks that so many things divide us in the mmo community. Action vs tab, pve vs pvp, and now root movement vs free movement. Probably other things. Each new game becomes a battlefield of competing ideas because you don't know what decade the next ones coming out.
A lot of people like both rooted movement and free movement. Khronus I think was just expressing how much better free feels. And it does, to us. Hell me and Khronus were arguing about some other stuff in some other thread the other day, I don't even remember what. He wanted like in game childcare or something.
But Intrepid hasn't made a decision either way. Both systems are still being tested. Anything could happen. Hopefully some kind of compromise that works for both sides.
It sucks that so many things divide us in the mmo community. Action vs tab, pve vs pvp, and now root movement vs free movement. Probably other things. Each new game becomes a battlefield of competing ideas because you don't know what decade the next ones coming out.
A lot of people like both rooted movement and free movement. Khronus I think was just expressing how much better free feels. And it does, to us. Hell me and Khronus were arguing about some other stuff in some other thread the other day, I don't even remember what. He wanted like in game childcare or something.
But Intrepid hasn't made a decision either way. Both systems are still being tested. Anything could happen. Hopefully some kind of compromise that works for both sides.
Well, I will once again vehemently disagree with this on behalf of many other posters that have said what I'm about to say.
Both systems are not still being tested, because the system that the 'people who don't want Free Motion' want, isn't the system in Ashes now, so we're not testing against that.
There are a lot of little bits that matter here, that aren't being tested, because the root motion combat isn't tuned to the correct settings. Technically the free motion combat isn't tuned to the correct settings either. The bigger question is 'why'?
If there's no time, or it's scheduled for Alpha-2, then it's fine, but there isn't likely to be a compromise when one group says 'this feels terrible', then the other group agrees but has to go 'that's not how it's supposed to feel though...'
This comes up a lot in conversations, even you and I have the same sort of interaction a few times. Our experiences don't match, so it's hard to understand why I want something. Our expectations don't match, so it's hard for me to understand why you want something.
Unfortunately I think this might be the one part of the decision where there is no compromise. The free motion character doesn't move even 1.5 T-Poses in the slash animation time when strafing, and I can't imagine people accepting less than 90 degree attack cones.
It's a rough life. Hang in there, Intrepid Combat Design Person. Hang in there.
Ok I see what you mean, there are better versions of both systems that could be being tested but they're not. Yeah I know that. They're both in a half baked state currently. I'd expect more iterations on both and more testing on both. Intrepid might pick out ideas from the community to use for those future iterations if they like them, probably what this thread is for. So the ideas and opinions should flow from both sides.
I understand your position that if some of the ideas you have were implemented into the root motion system, then people like me wouldn't dislike it as much. And I'd be down to try them out if Intrepid wants to test them.
Also I want to emphasize to everyone that this thread is named Melee Combat Feedback Post 7/30 Livestream.
Feedback about ranged weapons or abilities such as wands, bows, spells etc. are appreciated but should be framed under the context of "How does my experience with a ranged playstyle against a melee playstyle feel (vice versa) and what can we do to make it better for both parties in combat?"
@Azherae Yeah I am naturally pretty toxic as well. It's easy for those of us who have been here since the beginning of the internet haha. In my last post I was just being an ass and expressing how much I love free motion and how much I don't care about your need for rooted combat. lol. I guess pretty toxic > <. I need to vent sometimes and why not while discussing what seems to be the most critical aspect of the game.
Both styles are needing work. I am not *totally* against rooted combat but yes, my opinion is based on the lump of coal we were given with Alpha 1 combat. Mind you, I fully realize that combat was NOT a focus up to now for Intrepid. Server stability and everything else that has been worked on the last 2 months are far more important than any other topic currently being discussed on the forums.
I will always side with what the majority of the player base wants. For me, the longevity of this game is paramount above any and all of my opinions.
@Okeydoke I actually love the diversity of this community. There really aren't many "bad seeds" and all the feedback Intrepid is getting is beneficial. I don't agree with everyone but even those I disagree with are bringing valid arguments to the table to support their side. In game childcare I don't remember though hahaha. Imagine getting married in game, having kids and needing to find a babysitter before raid night. "Sorry guys, I couldn't find a babysitter for my son Tulnarstomper69, I can't make the raid". Yikes.
@Azherae Yeah I am naturally pretty toxic as well. It's easy for those of us who have been here since the beginning of the internet haha. In my last post I was just being an ass and expressing how much I love free motion and how much I don't care about your need for rooted combat. lol. I guess pretty toxic > <. I need to vent sometimes and why not while discussing what seems to be the most critical aspect of the game.
Both styles are needing work. I am not *totally* against rooted combat but yes, my opinion is based on the lump of coal we were given with Alpha 1 combat. Mind you, I fully realize that combat was NOT a focus up to now for Intrepid. Server stability and everything else that has been worked on the last 2 months are far more important than any other topic currently being discussed on the forums.
I will always side with what the majority of the player base wants. For me, the longevity of this game is paramount above any and all of my opinions.
@Okeydoke I actually love the diversity of this community. There really aren't many "bad seeds" and all the feedback Intrepid is getting is beneficial. I don't agree with everyone but even those I disagree with are bringing valid arguments to the table to support their side. In game childcare I don't remember though hahaha. Imagine getting married in game, having kids and needing to find a babysitter before raid night. "Sorry guys, I couldn't find a babysitter for my son Tulnarstomper69, I can't make the raid". Yikes.
No problems here. I honestly deal much better with anyone who is toxic while listening, it's only the 'not listening' part that bothers me, and I know from both this thread and other discussions on forums that you're almost always listening, taking all the ideas in, and then deciding 'nah, don't care, that's not what I want, period'.
Maybe one day I'll get to do it more too. But please continue to be toxic at least to me, you can assume I have the understanding of it, even if I sometimes complain at you if I think you're not listening (which, again, never seems to be the case).
@Azherae I've never had someone tell me to continue being toxic to them. Now I just want to take you out to lunch, your choice. Hopefully we can meet up in game some day and kill some nerds for their loot together.
@Azherae I've never had someone tell me to continue being toxic to them. Now I just want to take you out to lunch, your choice. Hopefully we can meet up in game some day and kill some nerds for their loot together.
As you've probably noticed, I'm the nerd in that situation. But you can feel free to kill me for my loot instead. We can have a whole 'healthy rivalry' thing.
Meet once every few 'ingame years' to fight about whose combat style makes more sense.
@Khronus hahaha. I don't remember what it was, I could look in post history and figure it out. But I'd rather just forever remember you as the guy who was asking for in game childcare lol
@Azherae I've never had someone tell me to continue being toxic to them. Now I just want to take you out to lunch, your choice. Hopefully we can meet up in game some day and kill some nerds for their loot together.
Hehe. @Azherae, I think you stunned Khronus by how deeply you just enabled him. Now I'm super interested to watch the fireworks show!
Well, now I have additional actual feedback from my testing of something. The 1H mace 'combo' currently in the game, when you switch to Free Motion attacking, is inconsistent, and I 'don't know why'.
I can't call this a 'bug', because it's not clear if it is supposed to be slightly random or not, but so far, I seem to experience a change where the first hit plays twice, if I use it after using an ability, but once if I just attack. This happens whether or not I am in combat with an actual target, and with or without directions pressed, and much more concerningly, it doesn't seem to care 'how long ago I pressed the ability, as long as I didn't leave the combat state', and sometimes even if I leave it.
Aside from the problem this causes with my timings, which I can adapt to, it indicates something about the way the attack handler is implemented that I don't like, but I don't know how to explain in 'layman's terms' enough to have a conversation about it, so instead I'll just ask others what other weapons they are seeing this with, while I go test others. Is this just a Cleric thing? I really hope so...
I want good Root Motion Melee Action Combat, but something I want to add to the discussion that is subtle but a huge factor when designing 3D action games.
Melee attack animation DOES NOT ALWAYS EQUAL source of damage. What does that mean?
Tab Target MMOs will generally output damage by using AOE zones With the character model.
2D Fighting games will generally output damage that comes From the character model (this part is incredibly important for us to remember).
This is why whenever anyone interested in frame data in fighting games they will come across different colored rectangles or ovals around the character model. Generally these are called Hit Boxes. They represent areas that do damage, where a character can get hurt, where a character is invincible etc... The sizes of these shapes can change but will always be attached to the character, exceptions being projectiles.
The reason why some of us in the community and I have felt uncomfortable about the Split Body melee combat is because of this: The character is a Shotgun Disguised as a Swordsman.
Let me explain...
Anyone that swings a stick in person would know that anything that is in the way of the stick will get hit. Let's say you swing a 2 foot long stick straight from top to bottom. Anything too far left, right, forward and behind you should not get hit by the stick. In this case, you are a 2D fighting game character.
The issue is when the area that can be hit doesn't match the size and positions of the stick being swung. You swing the same stick the same way as before, but now anything within an invisible 6ft x 6ft AOE cone in front of you gets hit. This is what it looks and feels like to be a Shotgun Disguised as a Swordsmen.
Tab Target MMOs tend to design their melee weapon combat as the Shotgun Swordsman (which sounds like a badass multi class ngl). This design philosophy however, does not fit the feel of the Root Motion Melee Action Combat design that some of us and I have been so desperately been trying to explain.
For the design and feel of what we envision to work properly, it first requires both the player and enemy NPC's hit boxes to be programmed similar to 2D fighting game characters, or Soul Calibur to fit the theme. Then everything else we've discussed should fall into place if done well.
No I do not want AoC to play like Soul Calibur or Tekken, I want the Hit Boxes on character and enemy NPC models to behave like those games.
I also understand that AoC is still early in development and some systems are just place holders or yet to be improved, but I still think my post can help people understand why certain things work and how this can help others to formulate better ideas for discussion.
Thank you for listening to my TED Talk
EDIT: Another member in the forums reminded me that the hit boxes are attached to the player's weapons during melee combat. Although I'm still unsure if this is true for enemy NPCs weapon's and attacks...
Well, now I have additional actual feedback from my testing of something. The 1H mace 'combo' currently in the game, when you switch to Free Motion attacking, is inconsistent, and I 'don't know why'.
I can't call this a 'bug', because it's not clear if it is supposed to be slightly random or not, but so far, I seem to experience a change where the first hit plays twice, if I use it after using an ability, but once if I just attack. This happens whether or not I am in combat with an actual target, and with or without directions pressed, and much more concerningly, it doesn't seem to care 'how long ago I pressed the ability, as long as I didn't leave the combat state', and sometimes even if I leave it.
Aside from the problem this causes with my timings, which I can adapt to, it indicates something about the way the attack handler is implemented that I don't like, but I don't know how to explain in 'layman's terms' enough to have a conversation about it, so instead I'll just ask others what other weapons they are seeing this with, while I go test others. Is this just a Cleric thing? I really hope so...
Unfortunately I have confirmed with my group that this is not just 'A Cleric thing'. I have also confirmed a lot of other things. Out of respect for Intrepid's developers I will not be going into what it means, or rather, what I speculate it means, but I also probably won't express any further opinions on this test.
Here's my take on melee combat as it currently stands.
The short version is, the free movement split-body style is clearly superior to the root motion combat. As the two are presented now, it's not even a close contest. I've tested on tank and cleric.
In root motion combat we experience a dichotomy between the rooted filler attacks (Q/LMB) and the more free movement we actually get when firing off our skills. In root motion combat, I can still circle-strafe while using Castigate or Lacerate for example, but as soon as i hit Q/LMB movement just stops, except the forward movement part. It feels clunky and bad with two competing styles. They don't complement each other at all. I would also hate to see all the skills start using the same root motion as the filler attacks.
So, free movement is clearly the way to go I think. There are still tweaks I'd like to see, but I hesitate on suggesting specifics when it comes to stuff like animations, effects and sounds, because I simply don't know enough about that topic on a developmental level. I hope it's possible to give filler melee attacks more of an oomph through those three things, but it should never compromise the current free movement.
A tangential thing I have noticed is the melee range/hit boxes when fighting against bigger monsters, like bosses, seem off. Having to pretty much get up under the big dragons butts to hit them in melee feels wrong to me from a gameplay stance. It also messes with the camera view, making it hard to see what the dragon is currently doing. Perhaps increasing the hit box on the bigger monsters is enough? Maybe melee range has to be tweaked a little as well.
Another tangential thing is, I would like to see pressing the skill buttons take precedence over holding the Q/LMB buttons down. So if I press 1 while holding down Q/LMB, it should stop the filler attack and fire off that skill. I would need to let go of Q/LMB and press it again to continue the filler attacks after the active skill has fired. I think it would improve how smooth the combat feels. I would like to test it at least, if possible.
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Nerror I haven’t had the pleasure of fighting a large dragon yet, but are you saying it’s not possible to do damage by hitting the front legs, back legs, or tail? You have to be practically underneath the thing hitting an imaginary hit point? If that’s the case that’s something absolutely must change. Big bosses must be able to be damaged anywhere you can physically touch them.
@Nerror I haven’t had the pleasure of fighting a large dragon yet, but are you saying it’s not possible to do damage by hitting the front legs, back legs, or tail? You have to be practically underneath the thing hitting an imaginary hit point? If that’s the case that’s something absolutely must change. Big bosses must be able to be damaged anywhere you can physically touch them.
I am actually not sure which parts are supposed to be hit, due to the boss moving, bad camera and sometimes the mob placement on screen was different to where it was on the server. I just know it was frustrating as melee not to be sure to hit due to a sudden shift in position or angle, so most times I would play my cleric and use a wand or tome.
Perhaps some of the more dedicated tanks figured it out to a better degree than me.
Comments
But why is it fun? I absolutely believe that you are having more fun. I don't want you to lose that fun. But your current words make it sound like all you want is to be able to move.
Not 'make sure an enemy can't hit you with dynamic attacks'. Not 'make decisions based on range'. Again, this is only from what you've said. If you're content just 'being able to move at all', then I actually think you are who @Ugoogee was trying to appeal to by just leaving both systems in (which is possible IF all you want is to be able to move around).
I hope and expect that Bow, Wand, and Spellbook would stay as Split Body no matter what happens, and it probably doesn't matter if 1H Sword and Mace just keep the 'can toggle this'. You're, by your own admission, simpler and less likely to get bored.
@Okeydoke - It's easy to keep saying 'most' MMO players want X or Y, but according to Cypher, even the polls from Intrepid themselves sometimes indicate it's not that simple.
It's been repeatedly said that the game will have 'a reasonable' number of Abilities. I expect 20 tops, and even 20 would be a lot. I expect more than 10, but some would be Weapon Skills that are close range.
As for your link, I don't know how up to date that is. Intrepid would have to clarify if they still intend to use the 'Focus' system, which leads to a different style of play altogether (yay Skillchains plz?)
The focus system sounds like exactly the system ESO used to build up your ultimate.
In my experience MMOs are relatively evenly split between 'lots of abilities' and 'specific lines on which you can occasionally activate abilties'.
One important thing is that if the weapon Focus system is still in, it means that Weapon Skills are likely to be tied to it, which will make it more like FFXI, which will be good, but also mean that the number of abilities one has available to just use 'on demand' will be even smaller.
As an FFXI fan, I obviously wouldn't complain to see Weapon Skills come back into a game, I have already stated that I consider them literally the best MMORPG mechanic of all time.
But their appearance in Ashes would have a massive number of implications, and I feel that if they were going to have them, we might have seen some sign of it by now.
Pulled from the wiki while looking for something else. The part in bold seems pretty relevant in this thread.
Weapon Skills will most probably combo.
Whether Focus is still planned is up in the air. It was in the PAX 2017 design, but that's changed enough we can't be sure.
Toss dynamic attacks into the trash can. free motion combat is as dynamic as it needs to be. Players have a problem with using proper rotations or positioning for some reason. Give us a block and a dodge and this is already an evolved version of wow's combat system that I feel is strong enough to be consider the best version of what wow could never offer.
I don't only want to be able to move but I damn well expect it. Free movement for melee should be an expectation of all players. This is not dark souls. This is not monster hunter world. Why do we need to bind ourselves to this shit idea for slow weighted attacks? Action is action. I want to move around and slash away and weave in my abilities when the time is right.
I paid $500 for alpha 1 and honestly didn't log in much because the melee combat was garbage and I grew tired of it after the first week. Is that on me? Absolutely, but I didn't feel in control of my own character. At the end of the day, this is the single biggest problem for Intrepid to overcome. Zerging is a close second but combat needs to be laid out on the table and dissected until they figure out what is what.
Also, bow, wand and spellbook staying split body while everything else having root motion is the most cancer idea I have seen. Going to be real fun when tanks start running around with wands because they get endlessly kited.
I just didn't want to assume that it wasn't possible to meet you halfway or something. As I've said many times, I'm naturally toxic so I've learned not to assume other people's opinions are 'no, I don't care about what you want, your idea of fun is trash' until they explicitly say that.
No sarc, no negativity when I ask, can I assume that your response is actually saying that? It doesn't make much sense to engage on nuance or specifics if so, and I'm sure you don't want to waste your time either.
It's like playing a Devil May Cry game but the player is forced to move and fight with Skyrim melee combat. Sure it can work but something is going to feel off and maybe even lackluster. But if you toggled a switch to allow the player to fight like how Dante normally would then of course you're going to have a better experience.
This is the kind of situation that we're trying to discuss and improve. Based on my metaphor the questions Intrepid Studios are asking are: People that enjoy Skyrim melee combat, how can we improve it if it was permanently implemented into a Devil May Cry game? People that enjoy playing like Dante, why do you like it and what else would you like to see improved if it was permanently implemented into a Devil May Cry game?
My question to those questions would be, why not have a polished version of both?
A lot of people like both rooted movement and free movement. Khronus I think was just expressing how much better free feels. And it does, to us. Hell me and Khronus were arguing about some other stuff in some other thread the other day, I don't even remember what. He wanted like in game childcare or something.
But Intrepid hasn't made a decision either way. Both systems are still being tested. Anything could happen. Hopefully some kind of compromise that works for both sides.
Well, I will once again vehemently disagree with this on behalf of many other posters that have said what I'm about to say.
Both systems are not still being tested, because the system that the 'people who don't want Free Motion' want, isn't the system in Ashes now, so we're not testing against that.
There are a lot of little bits that matter here, that aren't being tested, because the root motion combat isn't tuned to the correct settings. Technically the free motion combat isn't tuned to the correct settings either. The bigger question is 'why'?
If there's no time, or it's scheduled for Alpha-2, then it's fine, but there isn't likely to be a compromise when one group says 'this feels terrible', then the other group agrees but has to go 'that's not how it's supposed to feel though...'
This comes up a lot in conversations, even you and I have the same sort of interaction a few times. Our experiences don't match, so it's hard to understand why I want something. Our expectations don't match, so it's hard for me to understand why you want something.
Unfortunately I think this might be the one part of the decision where there is no compromise. The free motion character doesn't move even 1.5 T-Poses in the slash animation time when strafing, and I can't imagine people accepting less than 90 degree attack cones.
It's a rough life. Hang in there, Intrepid Combat Design Person. Hang in there.
I understand your position that if some of the ideas you have were implemented into the root motion system, then people like me wouldn't dislike it as much. And I'd be down to try them out if Intrepid wants to test them.
Feedback about ranged weapons or abilities such as wands, bows, spells etc. are appreciated but should be framed under the context of "How does my experience with a ranged playstyle against a melee playstyle feel (vice versa) and what can we do to make it better for both parties in combat?"
Both styles are needing work. I am not *totally* against rooted combat but yes, my opinion is based on the lump of coal we were given with Alpha 1 combat. Mind you, I fully realize that combat was NOT a focus up to now for Intrepid. Server stability and everything else that has been worked on the last 2 months are far more important than any other topic currently being discussed on the forums.
I will always side with what the majority of the player base wants. For me, the longevity of this game is paramount above any and all of my opinions.
@Okeydoke I actually love the diversity of this community. There really aren't many "bad seeds" and all the feedback Intrepid is getting is beneficial. I don't agree with everyone but even those I disagree with are bringing valid arguments to the table to support their side. In game childcare I don't remember though hahaha. Imagine getting married in game, having kids and needing to find a babysitter before raid night. "Sorry guys, I couldn't find a babysitter for my son Tulnarstomper69, I can't make the raid". Yikes.
No problems here. I honestly deal much better with anyone who is toxic while listening, it's only the 'not listening' part that bothers me, and I know from both this thread and other discussions on forums that you're almost always listening, taking all the ideas in, and then deciding 'nah, don't care, that's not what I want, period'.
Maybe one day I'll get to do it more too. But please continue to be toxic at least to me, you can assume I have the understanding of it, even if I sometimes complain at you if I think you're not listening (which, again, never seems to be the case).
As you've probably noticed, I'm the nerd in that situation. But you can feel free to kill me for my loot instead. We can have a whole 'healthy rivalry' thing.
Meet once every few 'ingame years' to fight about whose combat style makes more sense.
Hehe. @Azherae, I think you stunned Khronus by how deeply you just enabled him.
I can't call this a 'bug', because it's not clear if it is supposed to be slightly random or not, but so far, I seem to experience a change where the first hit plays twice, if I use it after using an ability, but once if I just attack. This happens whether or not I am in combat with an actual target, and with or without directions pressed, and much more concerningly, it doesn't seem to care 'how long ago I pressed the ability, as long as I didn't leave the combat state', and sometimes even if I leave it.
Aside from the problem this causes with my timings, which I can adapt to, it indicates something about the way the attack handler is implemented that I don't like, but I don't know how to explain in 'layman's terms' enough to have a conversation about it, so instead I'll just ask others what other weapons they are seeing this with, while I go test others. Is this just a Cleric thing? I really hope so...
Melee attack animation DOES NOT ALWAYS EQUAL source of damage. What does that mean?
Tab Target MMOs will generally output damage by using AOE zones With the character model.
2D Fighting games will generally output damage that comes From the character model (this part is incredibly important for us to remember).
This is why whenever anyone interested in frame data in fighting games they will come across different colored rectangles or ovals around the character model. Generally these are called Hit Boxes. They represent areas that do damage, where a character can get hurt, where a character is invincible etc... The sizes of these shapes can change but will always be attached to the character, exceptions being projectiles.
The reason why some of us in the community and I have felt uncomfortable about the Split Body melee combat is because of this: The character is a Shotgun Disguised as a Swordsman.
Let me explain...
Anyone that swings a stick in person would know that anything that is in the way of the stick will get hit. Let's say you swing a 2 foot long stick straight from top to bottom. Anything too far left, right, forward and behind you should not get hit by the stick. In this case, you are a 2D fighting game character.
The issue is when the area that can be hit doesn't match the size and positions of the stick being swung. You swing the same stick the same way as before, but now anything within an invisible 6ft x 6ft AOE cone in front of you gets hit. This is what it looks and feels like to be a Shotgun Disguised as a Swordsmen.
Tab Target MMOs tend to design their melee weapon combat as the Shotgun Swordsman (which sounds like a badass multi class ngl). This design philosophy however, does not fit the feel of the Root Motion Melee Action Combat design that some of us and I have been so desperately been trying to explain.
For the design and feel of what we envision to work properly, it first requires both the player and enemy NPC's hit boxes to be programmed similar to 2D fighting game characters, or Soul Calibur to fit the theme. Then everything else we've discussed should fall into place if done well.
No I do not want AoC to play like Soul Calibur or Tekken, I want the Hit Boxes on character and enemy NPC models to behave like those games.
I also understand that AoC is still early in development and some systems are just place holders or yet to be improved, but I still think my post can help people understand why certain things work and how this can help others to formulate better ideas for discussion.
Thank you for listening to my TED Talk
EDIT: Another member in the forums reminded me that the hit boxes are attached to the player's weapons during melee combat. Although I'm still unsure if this is true for enemy NPCs weapon's and attacks...
Unfortunately I have confirmed with my group that this is not just 'A Cleric thing'. I have also confirmed a lot of other things. Out of respect for Intrepid's developers I will not be going into what it means, or rather, what I speculate it means, but I also probably won't express any further opinions on this test.
The short version is, the free movement split-body style is clearly superior to the root motion combat. As the two are presented now, it's not even a close contest. I've tested on tank and cleric.
In root motion combat we experience a dichotomy between the rooted filler attacks (Q/LMB) and the more free movement we actually get when firing off our skills. In root motion combat, I can still circle-strafe while using Castigate or Lacerate for example, but as soon as i hit Q/LMB movement just stops, except the forward movement part. It feels clunky and bad with two competing styles. They don't complement each other at all. I would also hate to see all the skills start using the same root motion as the filler attacks.
So, free movement is clearly the way to go I think. There are still tweaks I'd like to see, but I hesitate on suggesting specifics when it comes to stuff like animations, effects and sounds, because I simply don't know enough about that topic on a developmental level. I hope it's possible to give filler melee attacks more of an oomph through those three things, but it should never compromise the current free movement.
A tangential thing I have noticed is the melee range/hit boxes when fighting against bigger monsters, like bosses, seem off. Having to pretty much get up under the big dragons butts to hit them in melee feels wrong to me from a gameplay stance. It also messes with the camera view, making it hard to see what the dragon is currently doing. Perhaps increasing the hit box on the bigger monsters is enough? Maybe melee range has to be tweaked a little as well.
Another tangential thing is, I would like to see pressing the skill buttons take precedence over holding the Q/LMB buttons down. So if I press 1 while holding down Q/LMB, it should stop the filler attack and fire off that skill. I would need to let go of Q/LMB and press it again to continue the filler attacks after the active skill has fired. I think it would improve how smooth the combat feels. I would like to test it at least, if possible.
I am actually not sure which parts are supposed to be hit, due to the boss moving, bad camera and sometimes the mob placement on screen was different to where it was on the server. I just know it was frustrating as melee not to be sure to hit due to a sudden shift in position or angle, so most times I would play my cleric and use a wand or tome.
Perhaps some of the more dedicated tanks figured it out to a better degree than me.