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Skills pane, quests pane, prestige mode and jumping puzzles

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Comments

  • KhronusKhronus Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Ryu wrote: »
    Khronus wrote: »
    I do agree with your statement. He should have simply said, an mmo that doesn't help guide players towards social interactions is complete shit.

    How would a system like this deminish the help given towards social interaction?

    I think the real question for you to explore is "how would a system like this HELP towards social interaction?". When you realize it wouldn't, your idea becomes less likely to become a reality.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    It's not the same outcome for the guild if the guild has space for 30 people. A player and their Alt is 2 slots, not 1, in Ashes' system.
    Exactly as it should be because the characters are two different people.
    Ashes is an RPG.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    It's not the same outcome for the guild if the guild has space for 30 people. A player and their Alt is 2 slots, not 1, in Ashes' system.
    A number of games determine guild limits based on accounts, not characters.

    If this was something Intrepid saw as an issue, they have an easy method for getting past it.
  • RyuRyu Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2021
    Noaani wrote: »
    Ryu wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    In Ashes, it's not possible to have everything done.
    Also, again, Secondary Archetypes, Social Orgs and Religions already provide sufficient prestige.
    We don't need a cure for a non-existent illness.
    So, again...
    No.
    The suggestion doesn't allow you to get more done. You can just get the same done on 1 character as opposed to 8 characters.
    So whats wrong with 1 more system that provides more prestige?
    This system is not a solution to a problem, but an additional progression that reshapes the horizon of the game.

    You'll have to excuse Dygz, he's... unique.

    That said, I am also against this idea.

    While it may be true that it doesn't allow you to do anything that you couldn't do with a number of alts, it would become expected after a while that every player has at least 4 or 5 primary classes leveled up, so that any player can perform any role in a group or raid on their character.

    This expectation doesnt happen if it is in relation to alts, but many players would not look at their character as being "finished" until they have leveled all that they can level.

    One of the things many players forget in relation to ideas for game systems (and so do many developers) is the effect a change would have on player behavior (WoW's LFG system being the most obvious example of this - no one thought it would have the impact on player behavior that it did).

    While your suggestion may seem simple on the surface, it alters the way players will look at characters and progression in Ashes.
    Thanks for explaining. This makes sense, I’m just wondering to what extent it ( While it may be true that it doesn't allow you to do anything that you couldn't do with a number of alts, it would become expected after a while that every player has at least 4 or 5 primary classes leveled up, so that any player can perform any role in a group or raid on their character.) holds true. Yes they will have those available, but so will everyone else. Everyone will just play what they LIKE, never what they “have to”, because everyone else can also play whatever they like and why would you force anyone to play something against their will? I think you cannot strengthen this point.
    Khronus wrote: »
    Ryu wrote: »
    Khronus wrote: »
    I do agree with your statement. He should have simply said, an mmo that doesn't help guide players towards social interactions is complete shit.

    How would a system like this deminish the help given towards social interaction?

    I think the real question for you to explore is "how would a system like this HELP towards social interaction?". When you realize it wouldn't, your idea becomes less likely to become a reality.
    1) Since you can do any profession, you will have more competition over resources
    2) This competition is twofold, both in trade (higher demand for ore, because everyone can be a blacksmith) as well as gathering (bigger crowds wanting to gather herbs from the same bush)
    3) Overal the web of interactions becomes much larger if everyone CAN be anything, but only 1 thing at a time.
  • RyuRyu Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    It's not the same outcome for the guild if the guild has space for 30 people. A player and their Alt is 2 slots, not 1, in Ashes' system.
    Exactly as it should be because the characters are two different people.
    Ashes is an RPG.
    This is just not accurate. How can you convince yourself that these are 2 “different” people? Its delusional.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Ryu wrote: »
    Yes they will have those available, but so will everyone else.
    This is proving my point.

    Your suggestion is already changing the way you look at classes, roles, characters and players. As such, at the very least, it need to be VERY carefully considered, and weighed against what Intrepid want from their class system.

    Now, one of the key things in the example I gave of WoW's LFG system that was completely unforeseen, yet had a major negative impact on the game (on the genre, tbh), is the way that system allowed players to treat each other as disposable. If someone wasn't up to the task, just boot them (or vote them out) and a replacement can be instantly ported in for you.

    What this suggestion of yours will do is mean that any single player in the game can replace any other single player in the game. While it is not as drastic as WoW's in that the player still needs to get to you, it is adding to the disposable-ness players will feel towards each other.

    However, in conjunction with the family summons that Intrepid want to do, this could well see players treat each other as even more disposable in Ashes as they do in WoW - as that family summons will allow you to bring that player straight to you, under specific circumstances.
  • RyuRyu Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2021
    Hm. You are all delusional. This system doesn’t do what you say it will. It will only work like that if you progress into all those classes, just like you would if you created an alt with that class.

    The system really doesn’t achieve anything g except add content you can do on 1 character and removes the need to relog if you want to play something else. I’m done arguing about it in this way, because every negative effect you say will happen is already possible just by relogging to an alt.

    Either all you guys take the stance: 1 class and no alts OR my system. You just can’t argue with all your points, if the same is possible just by creating an alt.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Ryu wrote: »
    This system doesn’t do what you say it will. It will only work like that if you progress into all those classes, just like you would if you created an alt with that class.
    Yes, it would only work that way if you progressed in most (not all) of the classes. However, most players would do this, as that would very quickly become what is expected and normal.

    No one wants to be that one person in the group that can only do one thing.

    You are looking at your idea as being a replacement for alts.

    It is not.

    What it is, whether you like/accept it or not, is an extension on the progression of individual characters. That is how most players will look at it - not as some optional thing they could do if they felt like it.
    Either all you guys take the stance: 1 class and no alts OR my system. You just can’t argue with all your points, if the same is possible just by creating an alt.
    This isn't the case at all.

    There are many valid points being presented, you are just coming up with nonsensical means to discount them.

    However, *IF* it did come down to this, I would vote for no alts.

    Player decisions having meaning is a core aspect of Ashes, and the first decision players make that has meaning is their primary class. Make it so this decision doesn't matter, and you set the tone for the whole game, giving people reason to assume other decisions they make will also not matter as Intrepid will just give them an easy path out.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Ryu wrote: »
    Hm. You are all delusional. This system doesn’t do what you say it will. It will only work like that if you progress into all those classes, just like you would if you created an alt with that class.

    The system really doesn’t achieve anything g except add content you can do on 1 character and removes the need to relog if you want to play something else. I’m done arguing about it in this way, because every negative effect you say will happen is already possible just by relogging to an alt.

    Either all you guys take the stance: 1 class and no alts OR my system. You just can’t argue with all your points, if the same is possible just by creating an alt.

    I'm curious, have you not actually played many MMORPGs before?

    It could also be that you are very blessed in terms of what you've experienced in those games.

    I can definitely see how, with a specific set of experiences, you could come to the conclusion that we are delusional and the result won't be as described, and I'm happy for you.

    But since this is a trivial matter to avoid doing, and not everyone is as fortunate as you have been, allow Intrepid to protect those who have not had your experiences.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • RyuRyu Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Indeed, an extension of progression. You can only have 1 archetype active. Currently you can swap between 8. Tell me in what way it is somehow Obligatory to go through a prestige system like the one I describe, where it is harder than creating an alt, but the net result being that you can in both cases choose between up to 64 archetypes to play instead of 8. Games get better by having as many paths of progression as possible, without forcing you to do any of them.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Ryu wrote: »
    Tell me in what way it is somehow Obligatory to go through a prestige system like the one I describe, where it is harder than creating an alt
    Because most people develop an "attachment" to one character, and want to play that one character as often as they can.

    People expect anyone playing their main to max out that characters progression, no one outright expects players to have alts.

    Now, this doesn't stop a person from maxing out many alts if they wish, but as I said, it is about player behavior towards each other.
  • RyuRyu Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Ryu wrote: »
    Tell me in what way it is somehow Obligatory to go through a prestige system like the one I describe, where it is harder than creating an alt
    Because most people develop an "attachment" to one character, and want to play that one character as often as they can.

    People expect anyone playing their main to max out that characters progression, no one outright expects players to have alts.

    Now, this doesn't stop a person from maxing out many alts if they wish, but as I said, it is about player behavior towards each other.

    What if there is a threshold? For example double the experience needed to reach 50 for every prestige.
    Something to make clear it is a hardcore mode.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Ryu wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Ryu wrote: »
    Tell me in what way it is somehow Obligatory to go through a prestige system like the one I describe, where it is harder than creating an alt
    Because most people develop an "attachment" to one character, and want to play that one character as often as they can.

    People expect anyone playing their main to max out that characters progression, no one outright expects players to have alts.

    Now, this doesn't stop a person from maxing out many alts if they wish, but as I said, it is about player behavior towards each other.

    What if there is a threshold? For example double the experience needed to reach 50 for every prestige.
    Something to make clear it is a hardcore mode.

    All that does is stretch out the progression a little further.

    It would force some people to think about which class to take as their second and third (most people would have a DPS, tank and healer or bard), but it wouldn't put a stop to the general behavior.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    "You are all delusional! I am the only sane one!"
    bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2021
    Ryu wrote: »
    Indeed, an extension of progression. You can only have 1 archetype active. Currently you can swap between 8. Tell me in what way it is somehow Obligatory to go through a prestige system like the one I describe, where it is harder than creating an alt, but the net result being that you can in both cases choose between up to 64 archetypes to play instead of 8. Games get better by having as many paths of progression as possible, without forcing you to do any of them.
    What?
    Currently you can swap between 8? 8 what?
    We can have two archetypes "active".
    There are not 64 archetypes. There are 64 classes.
    Currently we can swap between 8 Secondary Archetypes.

    RPGs do not necessarily get "better" with as many progression paths as possible.
    This is like asking to be able to run down the field holding the ball in your hands while playing soccer because it would better than being restricted to not using your hands. Games are "better" when able to make a goal in as many ways as possible - including throwing the ball in the goal with your hands.
    Which works great for American football and for basketball, but not for soccer.

    Games have rules and restrictions.
    Different games have rules that are more restrictive than others.
    Original tag is objectively "better" than freeze tag or TV tag?
    Simon Says is "better" when we can progress to the front of the line without having to freeze when "Simon" looks at the group?
    :/
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    Ryu wrote: »
    Hm. You are all delusional ... Either all you guys take the stance: 1 class and no alts OR my system. You just can’t argue with all your points, if the same is possible just by creating an alt.

    Heh. Well, considering your prestige system doesn't exist in any major MMOs, and those MMOs have been successful for decades, that evidence speaks for itself. Maybe it would bear more fruit by asking more questions and learning more instead of getting defensive about "your system" (which really isn't yours since prestige classes have been around since 3rd Edition DnD).

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • RyuRyu Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2021
    Dygz wrote: »
    "You are all delusional! I am the only sane one!"
    bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
    Besides Noaani, none of you formulated sensible arguments.

    Current system:
    Create 8 alts, level each to max level, and have immediate access to 8 classes by relogging (primary archetype free swap, only relog required) and access to 64 by relogging and swapping process


    My suggestion:
    Create 1 character, level to max, prestige 8 times (which is more work than levelling 8 alts, which you can still do if you prefer that) have access to all 64 classes without logging out, but having to go through a process to swap including primary archetype


    Everything you guys have said regarding “negative consequences” (again, besides Noaani) is already holding true in the current system.
    So I cannot see why none of you can see the upsides, when they are clear.
  • KhronusKhronus Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    @Ryu
    "1) Since you can do any profession, you will have more competition over resources
    2) This competition is twofold, both in trade (higher demand for ore, because everyone can be a blacksmith) as well as gathering (bigger crowds wanting to gather herbs from the same bush)
    3) Overal the web of interactions becomes much larger if everyone CAN be anything, but only 1 thing at a time."

    Let me rephrase a bit. What I mean by social interaction, I mean working together to work as a community. Leaning on one another to make friends, create trades, engage with other players more than just the typical mmorpg allows us to do.

    Your idea of competition over resources divides us. The competition is great but division of community is trash and I would argue that the competition will be the exact same with both styles.
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