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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Oh I was going off of the hard CC being action skill based thing. As in, you need to move and aim quickly and precisely. I should have made that clear I guess. For the tab target mode and skills it's much less twitchy of course
Edit: The tanks Onslaught skill is currently very tab target friendly, and I would consider the rank 3 knockdown to be a hard CC, so that kinda goes against the whole "hard CC is action skill based" thing though.
Currently in Alpha 1, the dodge roll halves damage taken. So that is already there.
I am not going to get in to a technical debate on specific aspects of a game that I have not played for 4 years.
What I will say is - if any developers saw any redeeming qualities in that game, those qualities would have made it to other games by now - regardless of the popularity of the specific game in question.
If you have an issue with that - if you think an industry worth almost $100,000,000,000 is not paying any attention to itself - then hey, let's talk about how you and I can tell them they are doing it wrong!
Honestly, if you go in to a debate on game design citing exactly one 4 year old example of a thing you are talking about, you've already lost your debate.
Ah we are back to 'my definitions are the only correct ones.' Ok mate.
'MMO's attempt to offer a completely different experience to what fighting games offer.'
This may have been true back in tab target pve centric days but not in action combat PvP centric days. Now it is more about 'I want decision making to be the most important thing but want some form of engaging combat and a gear system so I will play an mmo over a fighting game and an action mmo over a tab target one.' It's a spectrum, something you have proven in many threads to have difficulty understanding.
First of all you really seem to not understand the argument at all. Do you think ashes should be tab target?
If not, and action combat is desirable, should we not be looking to lessons about combat from games that perfected it? Action combat has base principles gear or not.
Side bar I really doubt you have touched the Soul character creator given your comments.
Secondly 'the build matters more than the kit in an mmo' while not wrong is 'correctly wrong' relative to fighting games. Just because you don't know how to unlock the 'crazy pressure character' vs the 'tricky zoner character' in the same character doesn't mean it isn't possible. Mmo's just take the easy to understand for casuals method by giving abilities labels. That doesn't mean the two require completely different base knowledge sets to understand how good action combat works.
So back to why this actually comes up:
'The genere that pushes action combat the most decided randomness takes away from agency.'
'Characters in those games with random mechanics are built with positive agency not negative agency'
'We therefore think CC is better off not being random in action combat because it takes away agency in a system unsuited to it.'
Lastly, GW2 has been consistently cited as 'a game where there is no miss chance for cc' and quie frankly your argument just like the Absolver thing resulted in you going 'its shit and didn't count'.
You are the one wanting to make up your own definitions for things, not me. Mate. That depends.
Are you wnting a discussion about MMO's in general, or about Ashes specifically.
If you want to talk about MMO;s in general, have at it, I have no interest in that discussion.
If you want to talk about Ashes specifically, then no, we shouldn't be looking at fighting games. This is because fighting games are incompatible with existing known systems in Ashes. Turning Ashes in to a game that is using fighting games as a basis for combat means making a game that is no longer Ashes, but rather something else.
Ashes has a large focus on build identity. This needs to be maintained.
Ashes will use hybrid combat - tab target is the basis of the game and is the fallback if hybrid doesn't work. These are Stevens own words. That means that this needs to be maintained as well.
Ashes will have combat with potentially 1000 players in it, fighting games generally have 2, or perhaps 4.
These are all things that are essential to Ashes, and that fighting game combat is incompatible with.
That doesn't mean that the devs should adopt mechanics from non-RPGs at the expense of the RPG mechanics of Ashes.
I'm sure soccer players can learn from basketball players. That doesn't mean soccer should change their rules to allow players to travel down the soccer field while holding the ball in their hands.
Removing RNG from an RPG is like removing dice from backgammon. Doesn't matter how good a game chess is.
In Ashes, RNG is going to be dialed down considerably with regard to action combat. It's not going to be removed completely. Because the goal is not to make the best action combat possible for any action combat game.
The goal is to make action combat that is pretty good for an RPG.
its actually around 90-80%
Hrm, maybe it depends on the attack? I've definitely seen roughly half damage on some of the dragon attacks.
I HATE luck espcially on things that can cause you to win or lose a game. Enchanting, weapons and combat should not be RNG. The only RNG aceptable is the drop rate of an item.
Using card games as an example/analogy: RNG plays a large role on every single turn, when you draw a card. But there's still plenty of strategizing and skill and preparing for different situations. Even if you don't get lucky and draw the perfect card, there's still something you can do (usually). Plus, a game usually lasts long enough, and you draw enough cards, that the RNG averages out. Each instance of RNG makes a relatively small impact, such that you still have tough choices to make. And both sides have a decent chance at victory for most of the game.
It can be the same in Ashes. It's okay to have RNG procs that provides some small level of unexpectedness, which promotes adaptability. And that can include short CCs. However, it's NOT okay to have an RNG CC that's so strong it effectively ends the fight by itself. It's also NOT okay if a CC proc is your only way to start a fight (like if all your abilities have a long wind-up time, and you need the CC to land anything).
We don't want combat where the focus is mostly on fishing for RNG. But if there's a little bit of that on one or two skills, that's makes for a more dynamic fight. Or a more interesting series of fights. Because yeah, at some point, someone is going to wreck you thanks to a very lucky string of RNG procs. And it will be super frustrating because there was nothing you could do. But if you fight 1000 fights, it's more interesting when some of them are outliers. As long as the frustrating ones aren't too common.
Also, stun-break abilities should be a thing. So that hard CC can be impactful, and still allow the opponent to respond (sometimes).
Same. RNG should be present but not substantial, mitigable but never to zero.
Indeed.
One thing I have noticed - the more understood a system is, the more accepting an individual is of RNG with that system.
No one complains about RNG in terms of the damage range of a weapon or a spell, because everyone understands it.
This seems to me to be why neither myself nor any of the people I play MMO's with regularly have an issue with RNG. We all tend to be people that pick apart systems to understand them, and when you do that you usually see fairly clearly how small a part RNG actually usually plays, yet how important it is.
I can fully understand people that do not know what's going on having an issue with RNG. To them, RNGmust look like some magical phenomenon that they only pay attention to when it doesnt go their way.
The answer to this iant to remove RNG, it is to provide easier access to information so that more people can understand what's going on.
Oh please. More information isn't going to lower the amount of times I roll ones. You want builds to actually matter, scrap rng entirely and give us direct shortened time. RNG in cc is dumb because it makes the game less dynamic, it's a binary thing.
You want builds to matter, and go 'if you didn't want it to happen this way you would have built better'. No mate I rolled three ones in a row. The game took away my agency because 'you want adaptibility.' There are plenty of better ways to build adaptability. But taking away player agency is not an acceptable one. My gear doesn't matter if I roll bad and that's just facts.
No one wants to regret taking hard cc chance down instead of extra defense. 'This gear is trash' 'you took the wrong gear'. But if it 'worked' its the correct option suddenly. That's a sign of bad game design.
Leave rng to crits. At least thats a positive experience.
First, you will never see what you roll.
Second, even if you did come up with the lowest number possible, that doesn't automatically mean you fail. In many opposed rolls, the RNG element of it makes up maybe 10% of the total, and gear makes up the other 90%. If you "roll a 1" but still have better gear than your opponent, you'd still land your CC even if they rolled the highest value they could.
You complain I am making disingenuous arguments, and then follow that up by a purposeful example of a one dimensional gearing paradigm to back up what you think is your point. That is the definition of disingenuous, as I am quite positive you know that gearing in a game like Ashes won't be as one dimensional as you painted it above.
It is one dimensional because it is binary. If you are arguing for a 'tiered' system of miss hit crit. That's a separate concept. You know why? Because missing in itself is binary. I don't care if 'the effect is lower this percent of time'. Missing out due to RNG is taking away agency when it didn't need to be. I brought up that gear paradigm because thats what tends to get built in systems that focus on RNG. Because it is inherently difficult to balance. Because it is by nature random and rng forces having to build around extremes rather than fine tuneable variables. Something that means a very different thing once hard cc or even soft cc gets involved. Because now its the difference between who gets a turn or who gets to root who.
'If you had better gear than your opponent but rolled a one you would still hit'.That's also a false paradigm. If you have better gear than someone it isn't an equal fight to begin with. Obviously you are going to be advantaged.
Also 'if you had better gear than your opponent but rolled a one you would still hit'. Oh so you ARE in favor of 100% hit so long as 'you earned it.' Great except that's bad game design because now whatever gear lets you hit 100% is now 'the meta'.
But let me guess you actually meant 'I want equal fights to have randomness but I want unequal ones to have less.' Ok but seriously why? I can't think of any good reasons for that. Gear buffs already seperate the combat experience, but if there wasn't rng and just 'flat time resist' you'd have a larger pool of 'fights in pvp that have some decisions and strategy' that matter.
If I can miss an ability usage due to RNG rather than my strategic awareness being flawed, my decision to use it stops mattering. The game can be better than that.
But again I am talking just cc here, the part of the game you repeatedly say 'makes for interesting combat that goes outside boring rotations.' You are specifically advocating 'lets have less ability to plan' on a part of the game that heavily effects strategy 'because I want to parts of the game that force me to adapt'. Why THIS area for the rng? There are plenty of other places to have adaptation like spacing, opponent ability useage, surrounding mobs, crit chance....
You rolled three 1s in a row out of how many on the "dice"?
Disable Defense won't just be on gear.
I dunno how Crits are a positive experience. They aren't positive for the targets on the receiving end of the Crit.
You were in a position to get hit either way.
I know this is off-topic, but I can see the roll in DDO and I love every second of it.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
The one dimensional thing was your example of a gear choice between CC resist gear and defense gear.
WoW and ESO are the only games I can think of with even anything close to that one dimensional style of gearing, and even they aren't close to that. This is another example of you not understanding - well - anything.
Yes, you will be able to get to 100% hit chance in any game with RNG if your gear is good enough and their gear is bad enough. However, that doesn't mean you have 100% hit, because they can always get better gear, which would lower your chance to hit against them.
This is how a contested roll works. It is my result vs your result, and both of us can influence that result via our gear.
This isn't going to result in everyone running around with max CC gear though, as even though gearing decisions are not one dimensional like you painted earlier, they are still choices. Choices have consequences.
What will happen is there will be people that specialize in CC in PvP, and they will maximize their chances to land that CC. It won't be a meta, it will be a specific build that some people will run. You aren't going to make gear decisions just to increase one or two CC's landing, but if you are able to build a class around CC, you will. This is another example of you not following discussions.
I have said RNG in general is essential to keep a game away from rotations, not specifically CC RNG.
A game could keep away from rotations without any CC at all, if it wanted to do so.
You really need to pay attention to how often you are pulled up for not having followed the conversation, after being more than willing to thrown in your opinion on what you think the conversation is. Perhaps even reflect on that some.
It's easy to think someone isn't following the conversation when you aren't listening to what they have to say.
If you opt to join a conversation, join the conversation as it is. Don't just make shit up as you have done here (I literally didn't say what you claimed I did, and then you decided to comment on what you pretended I had said - what the actual fuck?)
Even more than that, when people call you out for not following the conversation and just making shit up, don't then attempt to reverse that by saying they aren't paying attention to what you are saying.
Of course I am not going to pay attention to your response to the thing you made up and claimed I said. Why would you ever think someone would?
But sure let's correct your misunderstanding. I brought up that example (thought you were talking about something else due to your unclear wording,) is because 'in a situation where you die to stun because you geared against stun and you 'fail' the save and die from the combo, you are generally going to have two 'visible' things to emotionally react to. 'The gear didn't do its 'job'.' (This is a psychological bias, but good video games build around those not ignore them.) 'If I had more defense I would have lasted longer.' I'm talking about 'emotional responses.' Your response to that is the gear equivalent of 'git gud' mine is 'ok this situation isn't a necessary experience let's build in a way that lowers the quantity of those situations.'
Do you want yo keep condecending me about how wrong I am or do you want to have an actual debate and answer my earnest questions to you that you ignore entirely
'I made it up.' I got this impression from numerous things you have said in numerous threads. Getting exact quotes would take a lot of time so ok. 'I made it up.' Rather than misunderstood you... You don't perceive cc to be part of the strategic part of the game and the part that keeps things from getting stale....?
It might be that someone who built their character to be highly resistant to Stuns gets Stunned anyway.
There are no guarantees in life. Sometimes shit happens even when you felt you prepared against it.
Sure. Blame everything on the gear.
You could have maxed Defense and still get Stunned because your opponent got in a lucky blow.
Getting gud is not a guarantee that you always win.
We will build in a way that lowers the instances of unwanted outcomes.
RNG means that shit can still happen sometimes. But we build our characters in such a way to make those times as infrequent as possible.
You may want to play chess instead of backgammon, but RPGs are a backgammon game; not a chess game.
Aren't we all sinners?
you say that as if MOBA combat isn't fun? RNG doesn't mean fun combat
Moba combat is fun, not as fun as MMORPG combat in my opinion but certainly fun and their popularity numbers don't lie, but they are completely different type of games with completely different types of concepts, style, tempo and etc.
Yes, RNG doesn't mean fun combat and Non-RNG also doesn't mean fun combat.
But RNG means variability and unpredictability and non-RNG means monotone and repetitiveness.
Aren't we all sinners?
"Backgammon is fun, so chess should have dice."