Opinions about Racial Armour

I think this is an important topic to discuss.

Currently, Intrepid plans to make all ingame armour race specific in their appearance. I personally think that's a bad idea. 2 reasons:
1. The armour is always of racial design. This takes out the incentive of using your opponent's armour as a trophy as no one will recognise the armour of the person you killed because it will turn to your own racial design. No one will buy your bullshit flex 🤣

2. Stuck with your Racial armour might feel shit if you don't like it's design. Better to just pillage a different race and get their armour instead xP

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HazardNumberSeven

Good point. I forget that I'm old now.

JustVine

After talking with my friend who does some 3-d modeling to confirm my understanding relative to this I am now more confident that my original assessment was correct but I can now be more specific. So here is my understanding of why implementation of this would involve some trade offs:

While @Vhaeyne is correct about technology having been improved relative to this there are some indirect trade offs we as a community need to consider.

1. In order to achieve this you need similar body shapes that are scalable to each other's models. In other words that means a beefy T shaped torso Dunir would have to be less T shaped and in line with other models proportions to make it less difficult to scale up for a tubular scrawny elf. Therefore less distinct racial silhouettes.

2. You need to approach the rigging for character models ahead of time to create different areas for rescaling. More simply that means that you need to build all models with the 'bones' of the characters relative to their armor models in mind first. This apparently doesn't cost too many resources to do BUT

3. The more 'bones' and the more difference in shape/size (orc vs dunir) the more likely clipping on all armor models is likely to be, not just different racial ones (so more dev time for this in all armor sets is required.)

Therefore I see three tradeoffs we need to consider if we want to make this work.

A.. If you want to do this you need less distinct racial silhouettes. However ashes current models are in line with this at the moment according to my friend. So not a lot of work would need to be done on that front.

B. If you want to do this but with more distinct silhouettes you need to accept that more clipping will occur in armor sets as a generality and more extreme with these 'borrowed' sets (presumably the clipping on same race armor is going to be worked on regardless, but this adds more variables making it harder to catch in development.)

C. If you don't want clipping to occur and you want distinct racial silhouettes you can probably make specialised models for fewer top end core sets. Given the specified goal here is 'trophy' by op this might be acceptable when combined with the death stamp tag already mentioned.

D. None of the above are acceptable, do not implement the system given these trade offs.

E. The same as D but also specifically limit differences in visuals for armor sets.

Given the lack of infinite resources for Intrepid, which choice do you preffer. Given 2 it sounds like it is better to come to a consensus on this before Alpha 2.

Conrad

JustVine wrote: »

After talking with my friend who does some 3-d modeling to confirm my understanding relative to this I am now more confident that my original assessment was correct but I can now be more specific. So here is my understanding of why implementation of this would involve some trade offs:

While @Vhaeyne is correct about technology having been improved relative to this there are some indirect trade offs we as a community need to consider.

1. In order to achieve this you need similar body shapes that are scalable to each other's models. In other words that means a beefy T shaped torso Dunir would have to be less T shaped and in line with other models proportions to make it less difficult to scale up for a tubular scrawny elf. Therefore less distinct racial silhouettes.

2. You need to approach the rigging for character models ahead of time to create different areas for rescaling. More simply that means that you need to build all models with the 'bones' of the characters relative to their armor models in mind first. This apparently doesn't cost too many resources to do BUT

3. The more 'bones' and the more difference in shape/size (orc vs dunir) the more likely clipping on all armor models is likely to be, not just different racial ones (so more dev time for this in all armor sets is required.)

Therefore I see three tradeoffs we need to consider if we want to make this work.

A.. If you want to do this you need less distinct racial silhouettes. However ashes current models are in line with this at the moment according to my friend. So not a lot of work would need to be done on that front.

B. If you want to do this but with more distinct silhouettes you need to accept that more clipping will occur in armor sets as a generality and more extreme with these 'borrowed' sets (presumably the clipping on same race armor is going to be worked on regardless, but this adds more variables making it harder to catch in development.)

C. If you don't want clipping to occur and you want distinct racial silhouettes you can probably make specialised models for fewer top end core sets. Given the specified goal here is 'trophy' by op this might be acceptable when combined with the death stamp tag already mentioned.

D. None of the above are acceptable, do not implement the system given these trade offs.

E. The same as D but also specifically limit differences in visuals for armor sets.

Given the lack of infinite resources for Intrepid, which choice do you preffer. Given 2 it sounds like it is better to come to a consensus on this before Alpha 2.

It's not that simple. It varies first how Intrepid is handling armours rn. Some games rescale just 1 armour, some make 2 or 3 versions (varying by amount of races or bodies they have). Also varies by tools what you can and can't do etc. Looking at Tulnar, they probably will have 2 versions of each armour, 1 for tulnar 1 for the rest. Why? Because tulnar and their customization. There is more but that is as far as I am willing to go without going back to my notes and writing a huge essay about it xP

I would probably use 3 versions just in case for better flexibility over all. Especially if new races could be added

JustVine

It's 'not that simple' BUT unless your claiming I got things incorrect, it's still the relevant trade offs.

Conrad

JustVine wrote: »

It's 'not that simple' BUT unless your claiming I got things incorrect, it's still the relevant trade offs.

You're only right if they are going forninly 1 version of the armour, which tbh I doubt considering tulnar, but even then its hard to say until I see what racial armour is for the game

JustVine

Could you explain to me what 'more versions of the armor' does relative to the possible trade offs?

bloodprophet

As Justvine stated it is a lot of extra work:

1. In order to achieve this you need similar body shapes that are scalable to each other's models. In other words that means a beefy T shaped torso Dunir would have to be less T shaped and in line with other models proportions to make it less difficult to scale up for a tubular scrawny elf. Therefore less distinct racial silhouettes.

2. You need to approach the rigging for character models ahead of time to create different areas for rescaling. More simply that means that you need to build all models with the 'bones' of the characters relative to their armor models in mind first. This apparently doesn't cost too many resources to do BUT

3. The more 'bones' and the more difference in shape/size (orc vs dunir) the more likely clipping on all armor models is likely to be, not just different racial ones (so more dev time for this in all armor sets is required.)

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Armor

Racial appearance of gear sets is tied to the character model of that race.[45]

When you say, what if I'm an Orc but want to look like an Elf and I want my Eagle set to be the Elf representation? Well the issue becomes there that you know Orcs have a different organic model. You know, their body is different than that of the Elf. So, from a scope-creep standpoint, it's one thing to add different influences that represent the cultures that are donning the armor; it's another thing to adapt each influence as a matrix that can be worn pretty much by everything. From a scope perspective, that's a very difficult task for the character artists to kind of tackle. So instead what we've done is, in order to facilitate a variety of cultural representation between the races but allow for the sharing of assets like different armor sets, we give different representations of those armor sets to each race.[45] – Steven Sharif

In one of the streams in the "covid" times they touch on this during a Q&A. Was looking for the link and got bored(go watch the streams).

Therefore less distinct racial silhouettes.
This statement I think is the biggest concern. Trying to stretch or shrink armors to fit from "bone structure to bone structure" Leads to either homogenization of the races so everyone looks the same or you end up with clipping. The other side is can it be done? Sure. But at what cost? They don't have access to a thousand artists to adapt the various gears to every potential body type. People seem to think they design this stuff and make in game assets in a afternoon. Truth is it takes days of dev time to make each one and then having to go back and remake it again for each bone structure type just adds to the scope creep.

At some point you have to draw a line in the sand and make a choice. Is this worth the cost of time and resources or no?

Vhaeyne

If literally every other current MMO on the market can handle having armors scale to characters model's bodies without it being an issue. I think Ashes can handle it as well.

Racial armor the way Lineage 2 did it and the way Steven wants to do it with Ashes is an ancient way of doing things. The method of doing things this way is less scalable in the long run. You did not see many new armors being put into Lineage 2 over its life because for them to do so they had to make a new one for every race and gender. For Ashes this would mean that a single new armor set is 18 armor models to be made. This means for us as players, we will see a lot less armor verity outside of... Cosmetics.

This makes Ashes a much more cosmetics focused game. Which is not something people are fond of when cosmetics will mainly come from the cash shop. Add to that the problem where cash shop cosmetics are already confirmed to not be dyed or mixed and matched. Contrast this to a game like FFXIV where the cosmetics are already cheaper and mostly able to be died and mixed and matched. In addition, FFXIV puts out a lot of new armors with each content update that are obtainable in game. A lot more than I could ever expect for Ashes since they are using the lineage 2 method of doing things.

With proper scaling and rigging, a single armor is a single armor. Maybe two if there is a gender difference for some reason. To me, the writing is on the wall. Ashes will never be able to keep up with last generation MMORPGs cosmetics systems by using cosmetics systems from generations before that. Ashes wants to be a next-generation MMORPG, but it is already planning on being obsolete in an area that many players care a lot about.

Again, it just seems tone-deaf for them to want to go down this old route. Modern MMORPG players want to play dress up endlessly. This is not something I, personally, care about, but I am aware of its importance to the larger MMORPG community. If more people understood how bad racial armors will be for playing dress up. There would be a lot more outrage.

JustVine

Vhaeyne wrote: »

If literally every other current MMO on the market can handle having armors scale to characters model's bodies without it being an issue. I think Ashes can handle it as well.

Racial armor the way Lineage 2 did it and the way Steven wants to do it with Ashes is an ancient way of doing things. The method of doing things this way is less scalable in the long run. You did not see many new armors being put into Lineage 2 over its life because for them to do so they had to make a new one for every race and gender. For Ashes this would mean that a single new armor set is 18 armor models to be made. This means for us as players, we will see a lot less armor verity outside of... Cosmetics.

This makes Ashes a much more cosmetics focused game. Which is not something people are fond of when cosmetics will mainly come from the cash shop. Add to that the problem where cash shop cosmetics are already confirmed to not be dyed or mixed and matched. Contrast this to a game like FFXIV where the cosmetics are already cheaper and mostly able to be died and mixed and matched. In addition, FFXIV puts out a lot of new armors with each content update that are obtainable in game. A lot more than I could ever expect for Ashes since they are using the lineage 2 method of doing things.

With proper scaling and rigging, a single armor is a single armor. Maybe two if there is a gender difference for some reason. To me, the writing is on the wall. Ashes will never be able to keep up with last generation MMORPGs cosmetics systems by using cosmetics systems from generations before that. Ashes wants to be a next-generation MMORPG, but it is already planning on being obsolete in an area that many players care a lot about.

Again, it just seems tone-deaf for them to want to go down this old route. Modern MMORPG players want to play dress up endlessly. This is not something I, personally, care about, but I am aware of its importance to the larger MMORPG community. If more people understood how bad racial armors will be for playing dress up. There would be a lot more outrage.

Could you name more games that do better?

You named ESO earlier but ESO definitely chooses option A on the survey. They rely a lot more on superficial racial traits like skin and facial structure and less on varying body structures. A valid answer but not one I think everyone would agree on given the responses in various 'make my race more distinct' threads (the dwarf one definitely comes to mind.)

You mention FFXIV but to my knowledge they get away with this due to having 1. Their own in house engine (well not quite as in house now but still on very good terms. Really big deal when it comes to making models and getting around certain design paradigms.) 2. Waaaaaaaaaay more resources. Neither of which are really applicable to Ashes situation.

Edit: double checked and ESO also has their own graphics engine. Made from scratch specifically for them.

George_Black

Ok.

1) An armor set, usually named, is pieces of the same gear that if combined provide stats in addition to physical defence. For example, Helmet of Doom, Plate armor of Doom, Gloves of Doom, Boots of Doom.
2) Armor weight, is heavy, leather, robe. Doom Plate Armor, Leather armor of Doom, Robes of Doom.
3) Racial armor styles, as Steven wants it, means that each race will look SLIGHTLY different, when wearing Doom armor. (I have provided pictures earlier on this thread to see the slight differences.

Now let's get a few things out of the way. The picture examples I posted where from NcSofts Line][Age, a game that came out in 2003. It might look sexist and if you have noticed there are only white characters.
So let's all agree that some models in females look bad (the one where a female character wears underpants and just the top part of the armor looks bad. Or another of a dark elf where she wears pantyhoes for the lower part of the armor. Again, it was back in 2003, asian mmo. Still the best mmo that has ever been.

But I insist that racial features are a great thing.

George_Black

Here is why I dont freak out about racial looks on armors and I like that Steven wants to implement it.

L2 has a lot less armor sets than let's say ESO. It also has a lot of less appearance designs, which in turn look slightly different on each race.
But here is the thing about the armor sets of L2. Not the appearance, the sets. I'll get to the appearance later. It is after all the main topic. Bear with me.
L2 has maybe 60 sets or 80 if you want to include low level. 90% of these sets has great market value in that game and that is because all of these sets are extremely useful to wear, during each lv tier (20-40, 40-52, 52-61, 61-76, 76+)
In eso there are hundreds of armor sets, that you can wear at any lv. and 90% of them are useless. maybe 20 of them fill all the roles that that game has to offer. Every 3 months more OP armors come out and more of them become rubbish.

So when it comes to armor sets (off topic a bit...) I prefer L2, system in which armor sets are valuable, hard to obtain, useful to wear and profitable to craft and sell (or raid and loot).
Yearly or so expansions should add new areas, new lv caps, a few new abilities and new ARMOR SETS.
Now let's go back to appearance.

Vhaeyne

JustVine wrote: »

Could you name more games that do better?

You named ESO earlier but ESO definitely chooses option A on the survey. They rely a lot more on superficial racial traits like skin and facial structure and less on varying body structures. A valid answer but not one I think everyone would agree on given the responses in various 'make my race more distinct' threads (the dwarf one definitely comes to mind.)

You mention FFXIV but to my knowledge they get away with this due to having 1. Their own in house engine (well not quite as in house now but still on very good terms. Really big deal when it comes to making models and getting around certain design paradigms.) 2. Waaaaaaaaaay more resources. Neither of which are really applicable to Ashes situation.

Edit: double checked and ESO also has their own graphics engine. Made from scratch specifically for them.

I don't think having an in house engine has a lot to do with it. I understand that is both a blessing and a curse.

That said,

FFXIV, WOW, ESO, PSO2, AION, FFXI, Wildstar.

Off the top of my head, all have it so that armor parts are not racial and can be mixed and matched. PSO2 being the game that currently has the most impressive implementation of this. A game by SEGA which is not a company know for having a ton of cash these days.

George_Black

Regarding armor appearance.
It's 2021 and nobody wants to be looked into a certain look while playing the damn game. People want choices. That's why we have transmords, costumes, cosmetics etc etc etc etc etc etc.......

Here is Brigadine armor, a mid low gear set looking different on my human and my friends D.elf (also note how cool drops looked in that game. Those swords and shield can be looted, equiped and dropped. So cool).

I wanted to get that vampic look for myself but alas being a human I couldn't look so cool because of Racial Armor styles.

ESO gives the option to create any race you want and with a tiny bit effort you can equip armors that look like another race. Not only that but it has endless armor style looks, which is basically the end game over there. Fashion.

But you know what? In every game that I have played I managed, easily, to look awesome in my armor. But only in L2, I took the time to look around and admire other players and how they looked. Why? Because since it's 2021 now, and for years games have allowed for people to create their own look, nothing stands out any more. You have the typical people (me included) that go for the dark look, or the paladin look, barbarian, rogue priest sorcerer what have you, or for the completely ugly neon looking colors and silly combination of clothing choices that scream for attention. But you don't have the sense that you are part of a world.

And that is why I am not opposed to racial appearances once you put on an armor set. Perhaps a compromise could be made, racial locked appearances for low to mid lvs and then from mid-high that goes away.
Our characters, after all, have risen above the masses and their gear is somewhat higher quality. So by that point we are more than races, we are a new group that battles threatening forces.

In other words if I can sum up why I am not opposed to racial locked appearances (at least for low-mid tiers), it is because it builds a better world environment. And don't forget that we will have countless opportunities to create our look. So what if you can have ONE LOOK out of the thousands? Isn't that small sacrifice worth it for a better product? That's how I see it. And after years have pasted since I wanted my human to be able to equip the more dark appearances of the dark elves, I still say to myself. Well. You didn't want a dark elf so you can have the look. And that's just fine.

Vhaeyne

@George Black

I get it man, I was a L2 player myself. I remember only wanting to play Dark Elf because of how the armor looked. I think it worked really well back then because we did not any better.

Yes, you gain a sense of immersion that is baked into races with racial armor sets.

Still. I just don't think the racial armors are going to offer the maximum amount of customization players expect.

In the end, I don't think me pointing out how bad this system is for players will change Intrepid mind. The current way they are doing things will just sell more cosmetics from the cash shop. So expect cash shop cosmetics to be the norm for Ashes.

Dolyem

Honestly I liked how GW2 did it with specific racial sets instead of all armors across the board race locked

JustVine

Vhaeyne wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Could you name more games that do better?

You named ESO earlier but ESO definitely chooses option A on the survey. They rely a lot more on superficial racial traits like skin and facial structure and less on varying body structures. A valid answer but not one I think everyone would agree on given the responses in various 'make my race more distinct' threads (the dwarf one definitely comes to mind.)

You mention FFXIV but to my knowledge they get away with this due to having 1. Their own in house engine (well not quite as in house now but still on very good terms. Really big deal when it comes to making models and getting around certain design paradigms.) 2. Waaaaaaaaaay more resources. Neither of which are really applicable to Ashes situation.

Edit: double checked and ESO also has their own graphics engine. Made from scratch specifically for them.

I don't think having an in house engine has a lot to do with it. I understand that is both a blessing and a curse.

That said,

FFXIV, WOW, ESO, PSO2, AION, FFXI, Wildstar.

Off the top of my head, all have it so that armor parts are not racial and can be mixed and matched. PSO2 being the game that currently has the most impressive implementation of this. A game by SEGA which is not a company know for having a ton of cash these days.

Sorry if this sounds like I am picking apart your examples. I am but, I am doing so because I am not sure seeing what you are seeing and hope you can direct me towards where I may be misperceiving your perspective.

First of all, I am very confused by some of the games you listed. Both ff online games have what I would describe as racially variant armor appearances. Many sets 'mute' these differences (in FFXI more so than XIV). But the models themselves are still different, they just have similar looking skins. If what they do falls under your perception of what 'should happen in Ashes' it is certainly achievable, but swapping another players armor in this scenario is likely to be indistinguishable from your own races armor. The armor 'skin'/appearances arent different enough to matter and the bone structures of those races are vastly different. I would say this would be considered option D or E depending on how you look at it.

PSO2 has only 4 races with proportions relatively in line with each other on a spectrum. I would say it also is within option A but that each races head models and body type push things to the edge enough that I personally think itd be closer to what Intrepid could go for. However the art style tricks used to give that impression are currently not at work in Ashes current art style. I think this would be a difficult thing to replicate in Ashes but again still possible. It is still option A.

AION only has two races unless I am misunderstanding something? I feel like that might not be a good example of what we are talking about if that's the case.

ESO was already explained.

I tried looking into WoW but uhm.... Yeah. Their mobile wiki isn't really user friendly so feel free to explain it to me if you don't mind but don't feel obligated to.

Your my expert on Wildstar so I am not going to bother explaining it to you and instead ask you which trade off options Wildstar uses in your perception? I would guess it chooses option B by sheer nature of the racial appendages but all the vids of wild star I have seen look pretty minimalist and have less things /to/ clip. So maybe thats a pseudo work around? B modified? My perception may be completely off here so you and Cypher would probably have to straighten out my understanding.

Unless WoW or wildstar are particularly earthshatteringly different in their approach the other examples feel pretty clear to me that there are trade offs being made to achieve the effect you seem to like, but they also seem at odds with op's proposed system in some cases or other players desire for more visually distinct racial silhouettes in other threads. I am not choosing sides here for the sake of impartiality because I do care about cosmetics a lot and want to help us as a community get to some kind of consensus before Alpha 2. But thats my current understanding of your data atm.

JustVine

Dolyem wrote: »

Honestly I liked how GW2 did it with specific racial sets instead of all armors across the board race locked

Do you mind if I consider this as option C for my survey?

Vhaeyne

@JustVine

PSO2 races proportions are insane.

Pretty sure, she can wear any armor in PSO2NGS now....

JustVine

Vhaeyne wrote: »

@JustVine

PSO2 races proportions are insane.

Pretty sure, she can wear any armor in PSO2NGS now....

I don't know if to be fascinated or confused as to 'how this would apply to ashes'. Probably both. Believe it or not that example still probably falls within option A. As you have said previously there are some technical improvements in technology that have been made. This is an area where said improvements have been made. 'Expanding' something like that doesn't typically change the proportions much relative to the bones of the model involved due to improvements in rigging. Additionally I am not sure how much clipping occurs when she wears other gear; this armor set definitely does not pose problems relative to clipping so it's difficult to tell from this screen shot what exactly is going on here (and there could be option B without me really knowing.) Admittedly I am less sure on this point and would have to have another talk with my friend to confirm my understanding is correct, but I am confident enough to share my immediate reaction now given our previous one.

Edit: clarification the other reason I feel it falls within option A is because I doubt getting that proportion type is exclusive to the race in question. This means that their rigs would have taken this into account across the board and wouldn't be that difficult to achieve given the similarity of the races to begin with. Correct me if I am wrong about these proportions nit being racially exclusive though.

Vhaeyne

@JustVine

Yes, that is a character I made. We can get that out of the way.

What it illustrates is that even in some older games like PSO2.

You could have character models that scale to all sorts of wacky proportions, and the DEVs only had to make one armor to make that happen. They put in some gender armors out of choice, but even with old tech, racial armors were not needed.

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