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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Old school MMO vs New school MMO - perspectives
MybroViajero
Member, Alpha Two
Why are old MMOs more loved and remembered than modern MMOs?
Why have the new generations of MMO players dwindled so much?
Why doesn't it feel like you're playing an MMO anymore but a fast food MMO?
You have to be clear about this, in modern times what is prioritized is making money over the creation of quality content.
Great examples have come out in recent years, having very low quality MMOs in their content but exploiting the monetary factor , but that is not the excuse to stop creating or improving content / ideas in MMOs, money there is , what there is not is the passion for wanting to improve something that has been static for years.
For example, those who had the opportunity to play Lineage, Ragnarok, DAOC, RuneScape, WOW, etc. will understand the great differences that these MMOs generate when compared to modern MMOs, although these modern MMOs have more budget, technology and modernity works in their favor , Why does this happen ?.
The answer we are looking for is summarized in one sentence:
"Technology cannot recreate a person's passion, technology is a tool for your passion to overcome new limits"
I don't remember anyone complaining about the lack of "modernity" when Lineage was played, it was fun, it was entertaining and it generated that feeling of wanting to waste your time on a video game , but now with everything and "modernity" there is the opposite, games that only show that technology is their only focus and that the passion for creating an MMO environment is in the past.
There are many examples in video games where technology exceeds passion and this creates an environment where the player does not feel satisfied,and that is just what happens in current MMOs.
To give a clear example of what passion can do with the help of technology.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POdknqszMDY&t=184s
The Lord of the Rings, one of the best (if not the best) triologies of all time, developed, produced, made with pure passion.
-Peter Jackson did magic with the movie budget. Despite grossing millions of dollars at the international box office, the film got off to a rocky start as it had to stick to a limited budget. $ 280,000,000 USD cost the saga of the three films, an average of $ 90,000,000 USD for each, a surprising amount compared to other productions.
-The orcs , to give these sounds more realism, the director used the audience at a rugby match to recreate the battle sounds used in the film.
-The company in charge of special effects built an exclusive arsenal for the film like few others: 48,000 pieces of armor, 10,000 arrows, 500 bows and more than 2,000 prostheses for the extras and actors of "The Lord of the Rings."
-The soundtracks were created exclusively for each occasion, differentiating the characters, events, feelings, environments, etc.
-Natural locations ( not like now that almost everything is created on the green screen)
-Peter Jackson played a lot with colors, to subconsciously affect the audience, although they did not realize it, as well as the interpretation of the music.
-etc
The passion for detail ,for uniqueness, for differentiation, for the environment,for adapting to budget problems for creating something unique, that with the help of technology, makes this masterpiece possible.
As it was done 20 years ago, as video games were made 20 years ago, with more passion than technology since the time did not provide the technology of today but passion created unique things, and now that there is technology in favor of creating better MMOs that should help the passion to improve those MMOs.
If a modern MMO aspires to be more technological than passionate, it will be on the path of the MMOs of the last decade.
Why have the new generations of MMO players dwindled so much?
Why doesn't it feel like you're playing an MMO anymore but a fast food MMO?
You have to be clear about this, in modern times what is prioritized is making money over the creation of quality content.
Great examples have come out in recent years, having very low quality MMOs in their content but exploiting the monetary factor , but that is not the excuse to stop creating or improving content / ideas in MMOs, money there is , what there is not is the passion for wanting to improve something that has been static for years.
For example, those who had the opportunity to play Lineage, Ragnarok, DAOC, RuneScape, WOW, etc. will understand the great differences that these MMOs generate when compared to modern MMOs, although these modern MMOs have more budget, technology and modernity works in their favor , Why does this happen ?.
The answer we are looking for is summarized in one sentence:
"Technology cannot recreate a person's passion, technology is a tool for your passion to overcome new limits"
I don't remember anyone complaining about the lack of "modernity" when Lineage was played, it was fun, it was entertaining and it generated that feeling of wanting to waste your time on a video game , but now with everything and "modernity" there is the opposite, games that only show that technology is their only focus and that the passion for creating an MMO environment is in the past.
There are many examples in video games where technology exceeds passion and this creates an environment where the player does not feel satisfied,and that is just what happens in current MMOs.
To give a clear example of what passion can do with the help of technology.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POdknqszMDY&t=184sThe Lord of the Rings, one of the best (if not the best) triologies of all time, developed, produced, made with pure passion.
-Peter Jackson did magic with the movie budget. Despite grossing millions of dollars at the international box office, the film got off to a rocky start as it had to stick to a limited budget. $ 280,000,000 USD cost the saga of the three films, an average of $ 90,000,000 USD for each, a surprising amount compared to other productions.
-The orcs , to give these sounds more realism, the director used the audience at a rugby match to recreate the battle sounds used in the film.
-The company in charge of special effects built an exclusive arsenal for the film like few others: 48,000 pieces of armor, 10,000 arrows, 500 bows and more than 2,000 prostheses for the extras and actors of "The Lord of the Rings."
-The soundtracks were created exclusively for each occasion, differentiating the characters, events, feelings, environments, etc.
-Natural locations ( not like now that almost everything is created on the green screen)
-Peter Jackson played a lot with colors, to subconsciously affect the audience, although they did not realize it, as well as the interpretation of the music.
-etc
The passion for detail ,for uniqueness, for differentiation, for the environment,for adapting to budget problems for creating something unique, that with the help of technology, makes this masterpiece possible.
As it was done 20 years ago, as video games were made 20 years ago, with more passion than technology since the time did not provide the technology of today but passion created unique things, and now that there is technology in favor of creating better MMOs that should help the passion to improve those MMOs.
If a modern MMO aspires to be more technological than passionate, it will be on the path of the MMOs of the last decade.
4
Comments
This is pretty ubiquitous in product land. It's entirely contextual.
New iterations of an old idea become more sophisticated, but lack the novelty of the original game. This isn't necessarily because the original was objectively great, but because it was so new and different at the time. That differential triggers people's nostalgia the same way someone's first car does - even though their current car can WAY outperform that first car in almost any category.
In your analogy, the Hobbit didn't get the same HOLY F*CK WOW that LOTR did, because LOTR was that big differential. The same reason that the combined 3 Star Wars 'sequels' that shall not be named (about 7-8 hours of film) can't hold a candle to the last 3 minutes of Mando Season 2.
Ok - that last one might be a stretch, but somethings just gotta be said.
allow addons
add instanced content
pve only servers
rp servers
voice acting
more solo storylines/systems
controller support (thus ruining the potential that the keyboard has for mapping, allowing for more skills to be accessible)
go to xbox, ps
If AoC aims was just to make money, they wouldn't make a video game. From the owner to the employees, the goal is to make a good video game. A good mmorpg. Some people make video games, others build commercial spaceships and others flip burgers.
Because player quality was better back then. It was before the time of meme lords and toxic trolling. (Don't get me wrong I'm entertained by some decent trolling.) The internet itself was a lot more new back then.
There was also a certain magic to games back then. No one knew each other. Every launch was a natural experience of actually being in a new world having to fend for yourself and make friends. There weren't 50 different guides for every individual thing on youtube because youtube itself was barely a thing yet. You actually had to play and learn. Wild times. I don't think that magic will ever be recaptured.
I would have liked to have been there when Alexander entered the gates of Babylon. Or when Hannibal crossed the Alps. Or when the Winged Hussars charged the Turks at the Siege of Vienna and saved Europe. But I was there for the golden age of mmos.
Get off my lawn.
Your point about the overload of info on EVERYTHING is dead on.
We made the best out of what we had at the time.
To say no one was complaining about a lack of modernity back then is just false.
I still remember all the issues I had getting friends to try L2 back in its day.
Problems like:
The movement is ass.
I hate grinding.
When can we go do something cool?
Why did this guy with a red name kill me?
I hate the fucking movement in this god-damn game, again!!!
I loved L2 personally, but getting other MMORPG friends to play it was like pulling teeth. Most people did not make it past the first job change quest before going to another game.
People just did not want to put up with the jank of l2.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
MMOs by their design are a niche game. Most people don't want to devote all that time to a virtual world. Solution? WoW popularises the soft-core themepark MMO style that has become dominant. Anyone and everyone can play. More players = more money = success(?). Maybe financially a success, but objectively an awful game today, with game loops and treadmills designed more to exploit people out of their time and money than to actually entertain them.
Sandbox PvP MMOs grant a player more agency and freedom, which even includes killing others and conflicts. Something most people will eventually be turned off by, and that's fine. Not every game should be for everyone.
When I was younger I imagined how amazing Everquest and other MMOs could be in the future as technology advances, but the gaming world changed and instead of MMOs getting more immersive and granting more player agency, they went the opposite direction and essentially became lobby games.
Look now, to WoW where you can play the entire game from start to finish without moving, simply queue dungeons, sign up for raid finder groups, be summoned, be teleported back. No need to form community when every person you play with is just some random you will never see again thanks to cross-realm, and no one on your realm has any means of disadvantaging you so you can be as toxic as you want. The game itself might have a lot of players, but it's essentially dead because ... where is the game? Where is the world? They broke it. It isn't nostalgia or rose tinted glasses, because when I boot up a pre-PoP Everquest, or old school Ultima Online, suddenly the magic is back.
I see WoW as the prime example of the downfall of MMOs. Its success was so great all others attempted to follow down the path, away from sandbox, away from player agency, and away from immersion, into a place where all that matters is getting as many players as possible. Profit over art.
To me that is the divide between old school and new school MMOs. Player agency and intent. Is it a game world built for the player to live inside of? Or is it a prison made of treadmills to just keep as many people as possible playing paying?
AoC is clearly going in the right direction, making design decisions that, honestly, some people won't like. People will get killed and quit the game. People will have to travel and quit the game. This or that will happen and certain people will realise 'this game isn't for me'.. and that's fine, because it's for us. Not every game has to cater to the lowest denominator.
One of the biggest reasons is rose colored glasses. We forgot all the crap we also had to deal with, partly because we didn't have a choice or a better option. It's that whole cliché "back in the old days" thing.
Dark Age of Camelot still is my favourite MMO to reminisce about because I had great moments in RvR and socially in general. But taking an honest look at the game through modern glasses, the PvE and crafting systems were really shitty. Even the RvR had some real BS stuff, like the whole Stungard thing, where midgard could AOE stun large groups over and over, essentially permastunning entire raids.
Sure, there are many other reasons too, especially the more aggressive monetization we see now, but the rose colored glasses is right up there among the top reasons.
When I first played EQ, I thought the graphics were amazing - cutting edge.
Form a 2014 perspective, it pretty much looked like DOOM. Ha, not much better than MineCraft.
We put up with a lot of crap just because it was so cool to be able to play an RPG with a bunch of other people 24/7 whenever we wanted.
But, devs can't keep up with the speed with which we play through the content.
I do not agree with the argument of rose colored glasses, rather appreciate that you gave me that argument since thanks to it can object in the following way.
If a game makes you nostalgic it is because it was good or had good things that cause that nostalgia, of the last 10 years of MMOs the only game that can awaken me nostalgia is BDO is its beginnings, after that there is no other MMO.
Whether the MMO belongs to the golden age or this age, if the MMO is good at several of its characteristics then it will be remembered, not for the rose colored glasses.
That is why my argument that in these times where you feel that you play MMOs without spirit, without personality, without unique characteristics does not make sense since if in the past where there was not so much technology and modernity, a better work was done in the environment, the feeling, the quality, the sociability, etc.
There is no lack of money, there is no lack of technology, there is no lack of innovation, so why if we remember MMOs that are "in general" of lower graphic quality, modern, technological than the MMOs of today?
Well well I may exaggerate a bit , but the argument is still there, it is not that L2 was better than current MMOs, rather if you technically compare current MMOs with those of the golden age it is noted that current MMOs are better in "general" terms within modernity and technology BUT old MMOs with all their flaws left a better memory of what modern MMOs are doing.
If in this age there are more profits, better technology, more modernity, better tools then the MMO community should expect to have MMOs that feel like MMOs not the shit that has been in recent years.
hey ! Star Wars 'sequels' was good It was so good that I fell asleep in the 1 and 2 movie
You understood the analogy well, in the past things were done more with passion and thanks to them incredible things were created, of course NOT EVERYTHING was good, when there is no passion then good things do not come out (daredevil cof cof), for that very reason my complaint that at this time seems to be that there are development studies that focus more on technology than on passion
Totally agree, although I am in favor of adding a certain type of ADDONS, those that do not affect the gameplay or make everything easier but rather those that help you analyze certain things in the game such as your damage, your profits that you had, etc
Strongly agree, although I still think that although the times and the mentality of the game change the passion should always be present, whether the MMO is designed to milk money or not, if you make a good game people will continue playing it and for as a result, money will continue to be milked, but apparently companies take the examples of fast food companies.
You know what has changed a lot through all of the years? You have. And you are probably no less susceptible to nostalgia bias than the rest of the human race. Studies have been conducted on this topic, and the conclusion is pretty clear. We tend to forget the bad stuff in the past and mostly remember the good, where-as the more recent good stuff is tempered by the bad stuff. In other words, current games that are still fresh in our minds are perceived to be less good overall, because we don't filter out all the bad stuff like we do with older games. You cannot trust your mind or memories to be objective about this. All you can do is realize and accept your nostalgia bias (aka rose colored glasses) and try to mitigate it as much as possible that way.
Then we have the whole novelty of the genre then vs. the much more jaded view you probably have now. I can still recall the absolutely magical feeling Asheron's Call gave me when I played the closed beta back in '99. I have never had that same feeling since, and AC was not a better game than more recent titles. But it was new and novel to me at the time. I could actually play with other people across the world in a 3D fantasy world? Mind blown!! WoW actually got me close to recapturing that feeling at release in 2004. It was really polished and well done compared to other games at the time. But it still never quite got me to the level of AC.
You know the concept "chasing the dragon"? There is an element of that too. The dopamine rush of that first high, the first love, the first jackpot, the first MMORPG etc. We are never getting that feeling back, and chasing it will not lead to satisfaction or happiness. It really goes for most things we enjoy. We need more and more for less and less reward.
The ideas have been repeated in the last 8 years of MMOs, it's time to look for another
Modern MMOs are different, and I don't like them. Old school MMOs are still enjoyable to me, when I can play them in a state that's pre-ruined, which is increasingly difficult to do.
I think it can be frustrating for someone to discredit all your valid points and opinions by saying you're just wrong and seeing things through rose tinted glasses, so I want you to know I totally agree with the points you made and I know a lot of others do too.
It isn't imaginary or bias, and to suggest it is is insulting and annoying. There's an obvious different in game design between pre-WoW MMOs and post-WoW MMOs, and it's very well documented, studied and even intentional.
-MMORPGs used to be about the doing content in the world but now WoW and FFXIV are just solo queue for this instance. They are essentially lobby games. The games can be completed on a casual level pretty much on a completely solo basis rather than putting any effort to communicating with others, it's an MMORPG, that's the whole point! Runescape does a much better job of this which is probably still why it's popular even though it's an extremely grindy game.
Yes. Another thing to keep in mind is just the sheer number of MMOs in the genre today v. the late 90s/early 2000s. When I think 'old school' MMOs there are 4 major players: DAoC, Runescape, EQ1, & UO. Nostalgia is one thing, but when a new game genre is being created all changes are major and groundbreaking. 20 years later, with the genre saturated novelty is gone, and "big changes" are more nuance than groundbreaking.
This is the basic reason.
Back then, if 75% of people hated waiting, looking for groups, building up specific alliances, or grinding hard... they probably still pushed through it because the popular games required it, so they had to (this is just after the 'age' that CROW3 references here)
They most likely complained the whole time. Or gravitated toward the game that had the least of that... I think most of us would name the same game, there.
The rest is easy to guess at. If your population is leaving to go play another game because yours doesn't have 'Fast Travel Lossless Themepark Attraction Lobby Ride Mode', you add what little bits of it you can to stem the bleeding because people follow their friends and in a friend group, chances are the majority were complaining.
Eventually your game is 'ruined' for the player who dislikes all of that, even if it takes a long time. Or you add nothing and you keep the playerbase that likes this, but no new MMORPGs can hope for the success of the sponge one on a numbers scale. Which limits them because again... people follow their friend groups.
It doesn't matter that much how you deal with it. If 75% of players want Fast Travel to the point where they won't keep playing your game if you don't add it, then your playerbase is 10-20% of MMO players max, since you lose 5-15% to 'people who move to other games when their friends do'.
Or they move to the hardcore destructible-environment economy-optional full loot pvp gathering-and-crafting-centric Action Combat game...
Do not worry, I do not measure myself by the criticisms that make me or intimidate me, rather I take advantage of those criticisms to improve myself.
Thank you very much for your support .. bro
Or just because companies have found what they need to make to maximize their profit.
Old school mmo's were like an experiment for many because they didn't rly know what people wanted that's why there were many more hardcore ones. It's good that ashes follows the path that many old school mmo's did and still it seems to have a pretty solid fanbase.
In the old days, you didn't make games for money - gaming was shunned by society. This meant it was mainly people with passion for gaming who made things.
Nowadays the value of the industry has attracted people who are in it for the money, usually without inspiration, imagination and/or vision.
*sideways glance at Amazon*
Games became business, not so much passion projects.
I think that going a little deeper into this topic not only applies to the development of old vs modern MMORPGS but nowadays it applies to many different genres.
The point is that with the "modernity" is gradually losing that sense of detail to do things well, because unlike before there are many tools that facilitate the work therefore there is the possibility of losing many perspectives for the ease of it.
As I said before, modernity and the facilities that exist now are only tools to enhance the work, the real key to success is in the worker, the company and the team, if they want to do things well they will do it even if they have a lot or little technology, the one who seeks to do things well will do it.