An ideal solution for me would obviously be all archetypes be unique, I bet anyone wants that, but it's obvious it might be too much of an unrealistic thing to try and do.
So instead as it was suggested they do enough change that while the skills are "the same", there is enough difference that it plays and feels different. I think it was @Ironhope that suggested it...? Yeah it was. A good idea.
It was also suggested that we get to pick what changes we get on our archetype, that I would be up for as well. I'm certainly curious what I could cook up with a dual wielding fighter fighter or maybe fighter rogue (will have to check what I will go for in the beta). Maybe a high proc swordsman who relies on getting basic attacks to proc and hit as many times as possible? Or rely on abilities to deal powerful Blows? I also want to be able to be clad in full plate without it penalising me for not being a tank. I know its usually depicted as tank gear, but I would prefer the class deciding how tanky you are. I would gladly sacrifice some small damage for more armour and maybe CC resistance... i dunno +1%?
Tbh, I also wish we could level our weapon skills so that we had more talent trees to pick abilities from. To some might be too much, but I think it would bring more uniqueness to the character we are building. Hell, even better, also add fighting style talent trees. Sword and shield, two handed, duelist and dual wield (and unarmed if you feel ballsy). Let us pick from those talent trees as well.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@JustVine I mean he's just referring to all the videos that are quoted all over on that page as well as linked for reference at the bottom of that page... But somehow still don't say what he wants...
Go do your own research if you are concerned.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It was suggested they do enough change that while the skills are "the same", there is enough difference that it plays and feels different. I think it was @Ironhope that suggested it...? Yeah it was. A good idea.
It wasn't Ironhope who suggested it - that is already in the game design.
Again, all that Ironhope is saying is, "I hope the devs understand that if the game isn't fun, people won't play it."
Again, all that Ironhope is saying is, "I hope the devs understand that if the game isn't fun, people won't play it."
Maybe that's what you understood (case in which your power of understanding is the problem, not me) not what I said.
I said that the devs can't simply count on ''eh, 48 of the classes work, 28 are even viable! It's enough for now'' because a notable number of people will only play one thing (one particular fantasy class) in mmo-rpgs and one thing alone.
On top of that, people won't know what classes are viable or even decent at start, so they will just level stuff randomly in this very-long-to-level-game. If after all that time and investment they will find out their class is being pointed out and laughed at by people, they will quit.
So yeah, I'm arguing, as explained so far, for a moba-style balance style where everyone has at least a couple of amazing tools and does a decent (at least) job at the path they've chosen.
So yeah stop blaming me for what you didn't understand.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited September 2021
They can't count on that because they don't count on that.
That, again, is your paranoid delusion.
Which would make complaining about that before the game releases pointless.
I strongly feel like your goal on this forum is not to provide valuable feedback to the devs so they make a better game but to disagree with people as to cause fights.
Devs of good-faith are not that rare and feedback really helps them make a better game.
Feedback from us --> better chanes for a good game
Sure, not always, but in this case I think yes.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited September 2021
Feedback should be based on what is actually in the design and what has been viewed or tested.
"Feedback" based on ignorance and paranoia is not helpful.
Feedback should be based on what is actually in the design and what has been viewed or tested.
"Feedback" based on ignorance and paranoia is not helpful.
Actually it is. You're like a blizzard dev right now. People have been worried about their systems for 5 years. They give their feedback to blizz, and guess what? EVERY FUCKING TIME THE PLAYERS' FEARS ARE RIGHT. Player fears are just as valuable feedback as any. What's not viable feedback is insulting people like a little kid because you disagree with feedback. It's not up to you to tell ppl whether the feedback is right or wrong. So stop making those stupid comments of yours and post something that ACTUALLY IS valuable, cuz you very rarely do.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited September 2021
Blizz has had their game out for more than 5 years. Ashes does not have a game out.
If the gamer fears are right, there's no point in posting them because they will still be right when the game launches - because, according to you, devs don't keep their promises.
Trying to tell the devs to make a fun game is absurd and pointless. As if the devs have no interest in that already.
Your threads all have the same kind of flow to them. You type out a huge stream of text about something that's already planned for the game, and then you make vague and sinister "predictions" about what may/might/possibly/maybe happen if some random occurrence happens. Just chill out, and let them make the game!
If the gamer fears are right, there's no point in posting them because they will still be right when the game launches - because, according to you, devs don't keep their promises.
Trying to tell the devs to make a fun game is absurd and pointless. As if the devs have no interest in that already.
Ok at least I get where you're coming from now. @Ironhope is trying to say "please don't skimp out one this area of the game, I feel it's important." (Constructive feedback)
Where as you would rather just let the devs do their thing, and then just complain later if it's not what you like. (Not exactly helpful)
You're calling it a fear, when that is perfectly understandable as MANY game developers overhype and under deliver. I think that his concern would be warranted.
You're just suggesting everyone wait and then give reactive feedback later? Rather than proactive feedback now, to help shape the game while it's being made?
You know his two cents worth is the same as your fear of P2W. It's just the two of you have different priorities.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The devs are not planning to skimp - so that is not constructive feedback.
It's just saying, "I don't trust you to properly do your job. I'm afraid you won't. Now, I'm going to tell you what I think you need to do to get it right. Because if I don't, you probably won't do it."
Are you saying you've never seen a developer, especially for an MMO just scrap a system before launch? C'mon...
And by that logic why should anyone say anything? they know people want a good game so they'll just do that make a good game... And it will be good because no other developers have set out to make good games before. All those other companies set out to make "ok", "average", and "just fine" games...
But now we are making a good same so it will be good.............
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If they are going to scrap a system, nothing you say now will stop them from doing so.
By your logic, we might as well make a whole bunch of posts about how the game will fail if it goes P2W or if the Nodes system is scrapped.
If they are going to scrap a system, nothing you say now will stop them from doing so.
By your logic, we might as well make a whole bunch of posts about how the game will fail if it goes P2W or if the Nodes system is scrapped.
If user feedback prevents bad design it is less likely to need to be scraped later. Things get scraped when devs ignore the players when they are told overwhelmingly their design is bad and then launch the content and start losing money as a result of that same user feedback.
If Intrepid wants people to have more faith in their game at this stage they could just be more clear about their design. They decided to be opaque about basic systems and made it clear they will stay opaque by omission and stating there won't be news for quite awhile. People are fair to complain about the opacity and lack of specificity 5 years in development.
Faith is earned and loseable. Not specifying things gradually erodes that.
Feedback should be based on what is actually in the design and what has been viewed or tested.
"Feedback" based on ignorance and paranoia is not helpful.
If you think the idea that most of the 64 classes won't be optimal is paranoia or ignorant, then you have a serious lack of experience and understanding when it comes to mmo-rpg development.
People like @Conrad , @JustVine and @SirChancelot11 have already made very good points as to why this is and I won't bother poluting this topic with more non-game related debates focusing on your own personal toxicity and opinions.
This isn't a dating forum.
Talk about game development or please just leave.
I don't understand why everyone here is throwing good ideas in regarding to class development left and right and then you come and clog up the whole thing with tons of non-game-related writing.
I think games like Wow intentionally make different classes more potent then switch them after a while. This grabs the people that want to be the op fotm class and forces them to sink their time into leveling and gearing a new toon.
Comments
So instead as it was suggested they do enough change that while the skills are "the same", there is enough difference that it plays and feels different. I think it was @Ironhope that suggested it...? Yeah it was. A good idea.
It was also suggested that we get to pick what changes we get on our archetype, that I would be up for as well. I'm certainly curious what I could cook up with a dual wielding fighter fighter or maybe fighter rogue (will have to check what I will go for in the beta). Maybe a high proc swordsman who relies on getting basic attacks to proc and hit as many times as possible? Or rely on abilities to deal powerful Blows? I also want to be able to be clad in full plate without it penalising me for not being a tank. I know its usually depicted as tank gear, but I would prefer the class deciding how tanky you are. I would gladly sacrifice some small damage for more armour and maybe CC resistance... i dunno +1%?
Tbh, I also wish we could level our weapon skills so that we had more talent trees to pick abilities from. To some might be too much, but I think it would bring more uniqueness to the character we are building. Hell, even better, also add fighting style talent trees. Sword and shield, two handed, duelist and dual wield (and unarmed if you feel ballsy). Let us pick from those talent trees as well.
Again, all that Ironhope is saying is, "I hope the devs understand that if the game isn't fun, people won't play it."
I have, hence the concern. All I'm getting now is that you got nothing...
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/44271/dev-discussion-18-class-demarcation/p1
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/48283/dev-discussion-27-ideal-class/p1
It isn't.
What we have is beyond vague.
its very vague.
Could do anything with it or could do nothing with it (by ''it'' I mean the explanations given so far by the devs)
Maybe that's what you understood (case in which your power of understanding is the problem, not me) not what I said.
I said that the devs can't simply count on ''eh, 48 of the classes work, 28 are even viable! It's enough for now'' because a notable number of people will only play one thing (one particular fantasy class) in mmo-rpgs and one thing alone.
On top of that, people won't know what classes are viable or even decent at start, so they will just level stuff randomly in this very-long-to-level-game. If after all that time and investment they will find out their class is being pointed out and laughed at by people, they will quit.
So yeah, I'm arguing, as explained so far, for a moba-style balance style where everyone has at least a couple of amazing tools and does a decent (at least) job at the path they've chosen.
So yeah stop blaming me for what you didn't understand.
That, again, is your paranoid delusion.
mmo-rpg devs make promisses and end up not keeping to them all day long.
its always good to remind those planning to be a success and showing potential that there are pitfals left and right and to point them out
I pointed out a big, particular one that people rarely consider
Lacks arguments --> throws insults.
cool dude
peace
I strongly feel like your goal on this forum is not to provide valuable feedback to the devs so they make a better game but to disagree with people as to cause fights.
Devs of good-faith are not that rare and feedback really helps them make a better game.
Feedback from us --> better chanes for a good game
Sure, not always, but in this case I think yes.
"Feedback" based on ignorance and paranoia is not helpful.
Actually it is. You're like a blizzard dev right now. People have been worried about their systems for 5 years. They give their feedback to blizz, and guess what? EVERY FUCKING TIME THE PLAYERS' FEARS ARE RIGHT. Player fears are just as valuable feedback as any. What's not viable feedback is insulting people like a little kid because you disagree with feedback. It's not up to you to tell ppl whether the feedback is right or wrong. So stop making those stupid comments of yours and post something that ACTUALLY IS valuable, cuz you very rarely do.
If the gamer fears are right, there's no point in posting them because they will still be right when the game launches - because, according to you, devs don't keep their promises.
Trying to tell the devs to make a fun game is absurd and pointless. As if the devs have no interest in that already.
Ok at least I get where you're coming from now. @Ironhope is trying to say "please don't skimp out one this area of the game, I feel it's important." (Constructive feedback)
Where as you would rather just let the devs do their thing, and then just complain later if it's not what you like. (Not exactly helpful)
You're calling it a fear, when that is perfectly understandable as MANY game developers overhype and under deliver. I think that his concern would be warranted.
You're just suggesting everyone wait and then give reactive feedback later? Rather than proactive feedback now, to help shape the game while it's being made?
You know his two cents worth is the same as your fear of P2W. It's just the two of you have different priorities.
It's just saying, "I don't trust you to properly do your job. I'm afraid you won't. Now, I'm going to tell you what I think you need to do to get it right. Because if I don't, you probably won't do it."
And by that logic why should anyone say anything? they know people want a good game so they'll just do that make a good game... And it will be good because no other developers have set out to make good games before. All those other companies set out to make "ok", "average", and "just fine" games...
But now we are making a good same so it will be good.............
By your logic, we might as well make a whole bunch of posts about how the game will fail if it goes P2W or if the Nodes system is scrapped.
If user feedback prevents bad design it is less likely to need to be scraped later. Things get scraped when devs ignore the players when they are told overwhelmingly their design is bad and then launch the content and start losing money as a result of that same user feedback.
If Intrepid wants people to have more faith in their game at this stage they could just be more clear about their design. They decided to be opaque about basic systems and made it clear they will stay opaque by omission and stating there won't be news for quite awhile. People are fair to complain about the opacity and lack of specificity 5 years in development.
Faith is earned and loseable. Not specifying things gradually erodes that.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
If you think the idea that most of the 64 classes won't be optimal is paranoia or ignorant, then you have a serious lack of experience and understanding when it comes to mmo-rpg development.
People like @Conrad , @JustVine and @SirChancelot11 have already made very good points as to why this is and I won't bother poluting this topic with more non-game related debates focusing on your own personal toxicity and opinions.
This isn't a dating forum.
Talk about game development or please just leave.
I don't understand why everyone here is throwing good ideas in regarding to class development left and right and then you come and clog up the whole thing with tons of non-game-related writing.