I guess the difference between the seconary classes with the same primary class is smaller than Fire Mage and Frost Mage in WoW.
WoW has 10 different speel caster just as DPS. Gameplay and visual effects are different. I Don't think a game with 64 different classes and action combat can have that diversity.
Okay so I'm going to write one clarification comment for several people because I was clearly misunderstood by the people who ironically claim I misunderstood
I didn't misunderstand anything.
First of all, as @maouw and @Atama correctly understood and noticed, the devs are advertising their game as having 64 classes on social media. I didn't misunderstand anything. This is the result the devs wanted. People going and they got it. But what was the cost? The cost is a massive future disappointment if the job is done lazily.
Then it's their fault for not doing research if they end up disappointed. It's not like the information on the classes is top secret stuff, we already know what they're going for and a quick Google search will show that.
Then it's their fault for not doing research if they end up disappointed. It's not like the information on the classes is top secret stuff, we already know what they're going for and a quick Google search will show that.
so you know the differences about all class combinations of all archetypes in gameplay and visual effects?
I really need your glass sphere.
Then it's their fault for not doing research if they end up disappointed. It's not like the information on the classes is top secret stuff, we already know what they're going for and a quick Google search will show that.
so you know the differences about all class combinations of all archetypes in gameplay and visual effects?
I really need your glass sphere.
Then it's their fault for not doing research if they end up disappointed. It's not like the information on the classes is top secret stuff, we already know what they're going for and a quick Google search will show that.
so you know the differences about all class combinations of all archetypes in gameplay and visual effects?
I really need your glass sphere.
What's promised and what is delivered could be entirely different things. I think that is what they are worried about.
Reading the OP makes it sound like he's crying about what Intrepid has always been going for. I've never read a quote in the 4+ years I've followed this game that said all the classes were some 100% unique thing, yet OP is saying "they promised this, they promised that" as if Intrepid promised that Necromancer and Templar and Scion and all these classes were unique and match their class names 100%.
Then it's their fault for not doing research if they end up disappointed. It's not like the information on the classes is top secret stuff, we already know what they're going for and a quick Google search will show that.
I get what your saying, but that would still make it advertising through clickbait. They're basically advertising something banking on people's preconceived ideas of what the word class means, and then saying that class means something different for us. Think of it like this. You have a preconceived idea of what a dungeon is: bunch of mobs, three to five bosses, maybe a puzzle or two. And they advertised a tagline of "we have over 100 dungeons." But then each of these dungeons was like a shrine from BotW. Maybe a couple minion waves, or maybe a puzzle or two, or just a single boss. People would be upset.
I think that is where their sentiment is coming from... But I get what you're saying, it's not a secret, Google explains it.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited September 2021
They aren't advertising yet, as far as I know.
The devs do use terms differently than is common for RPGs/MMORPGs - battlegrounds, for another example.
Classes are easy enough to Google/wiki.
1
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Been signed up to the forum for less than a fortnight, and you already "know" what the fans who've been here three years or more want, eh? Why don't you speak for yourself, and not for everybody else...
That sufficiently explains what Intrepid are going for with the class system.
I don't see there videos about gameplay and visual effects to all class combinations.
There are not a single informations about the differences. Your answer is inferior.
It's not like the information on the classes is top secret stuff, we already know what they're going for and a quick Google search will show that.
We already know nothing.
We've seen some very early alpha gameplay from just 3 classes (which they themselves were different compared to the wiki), without any real customization. On everything else we have very limited information.
Not to mention that its very very likely that these classes will look very different if not completely different at launch. Look at WoW vanilla. We had classes suffer massive changes between the pre-release beta and the release version.
So yeah what information? 98% of the data is unknown at this point.
Been signed up to the forum for less than a fortnight, and you already "know" what the fans who've been here three years or more want, eh? Why don't you speak for yourself, and not for everybody else...
So fans want an inferior product (redundant classes with cool names but nothing to back them up)?
Been signed up to the forum for less than a fortnight, and you already "know" what the fans who've been here three years or more want, eh? Why don't you speak for yourself, and not for everybody else...
So fans want an inferior product (redundant classes with cool names but nothing to back them up)?
You got me man.
Got to give you credit tho.
Your avatar (YaRrr) mathes your personality!
It's not inferior. Just cos you yourself think it is, doesn't make it so. There are plenty of us that are happily waiting for it.
That sufficiently explains what Intrepid are going for with the class system.
I don't see there videos about gameplay and visual effects to all class combinations.
There are not a single informations about the differences. Your answer is inferior.
Here you go, from the first section:
"A player may choose a secondary archetype when they reach level 25.[3] The combination of primary and secondary archetypes is referred to as a class.[3][1][4]
The secondary archetype does not provide additional skills.[10]
Secondary archetypes may be changed, but not "on-the-fly".[8][11]
The player can then augment their primary skills with effects from their secondary archetype.[3][7]
Each skill in the primary tree will have several augment options from the secondary tree. This is an example of horizontal progression.[7]
Augments to primary skills can fundamentally change the way the ability works - adapting what the ability once did to incorporate the identity of the secondary archetype/class.[12]"
"A player may choose a secondary archetype when they reach level 25.[3] The combination of primary and secondary archetypes is referred to as a class.[3][1][4]
The secondary archetype does not provide additional skills.[10]
Secondary archetypes may be changed, but not "on-the-fly".[8][11]
The player can then augment their primary skills with effects from their secondary archetype.[3][7]
Each skill in the primary tree will have several augment options from the secondary tree. This is an example of horizontal progression.[7]
Augments to primary skills can fundamentally change the way the ability works - adapting what the ability once did to incorporate the identity of the secondary archetype/class.[12]"
Which esentially says nothing.
You could do or not do anything based on this description.
It's not inferior. Just cos you yourself think it is, doesn't make it so. There are plenty of us that are happily waiting for it.
If you want to sell yourself the idea that classes/sub-classes not being distinct and not being deserving of their name (gameplay not fitting theme) is not bad, then do it, I won't lose sleep over it.
But don't try to sell it to me, its insulting. Its one of the main complaints regarding what was until recently the nr1 mmo-rpg (and was for like 16 years the top mmo-rpg), retail World of Warcraft, that classes/sub-classes (specs) are redundant, not distinct enough. Now imagine them being underwhelming too (which would be the case with subclasses if the gameplay changes wouldn't be notable enough and wouldn't fit the theme enough).
So sure, if you want an inferior product despite dev promisses implicitly saying the product will be great, fine.
But don't act like there's something wrong with me because I want a good quality product / like I didn't understand what the devs promissed.
"A player may choose a secondary archetype when they reach level 25.[3] The combination of primary and secondary archetypes is referred to as a class.[3][1][4]
The secondary archetype does not provide additional skills.[10]
Secondary archetypes may be changed, but not "on-the-fly".[8][11]
The player can then augment their primary skills with effects from their secondary archetype.[3][7]
Each skill in the primary tree will have several augment options from the secondary tree. This is an example of horizontal progression.[7]
Augments to primary skills can fundamentally change the way the ability works - adapting what the ability once did to incorporate the identity of the secondary archetype/class.[12]"
Which esentially says nothing.
You could do or not do anything based on this description.
You're getting all pissy about not being able to play a necromancer (a little unbelievable, given that the Summoner hasn't even been released to us, yet, but hey ho), and it's there in black and white (and yellow) that the secondary archetype is going to alter the primary's skills with their own effects, to "incorporate the identity" of the class.
They've got it in hand. We haven't even seen all the classes, yet. Give it time, and give them chance.
This implicitly means there will have to be distinct enough.
I do think your expectations of distinct might be higher than what they've been saying. Sure, 64 completely unique classes would be awesome but we're not getting that and you shouldn't expect that... Now the 8 primary archtypes are all going to feel different just by their base design, so you have that.
The 8 classes underneath each archetype are going to share a lot of abilities and flavor. I hope there is enough of a difference that I can at least tell them apart. As I said in another thread the best case scenario the different classes feel like different specs in WoW.
pretend the shaman is the primary archetype, but ele, enh, resto are the classes. They all use elemental shocks, totems, chain lightning because they're all the same primary archetype, but they play different from each other.
I think that's probably the most you should hope for in terms of uniqueness...
not being able to play a necromancer (a little unbelievable, given that the Summoner hasn't even been released to us, yet, but hey ho),
1. I don't want to play a necromancer. I will play a templar or some other cleric combination.
2. I explained how the game could take a very bad turn by being lazy when it comes to class development (a realistic concern considering it's very ambitious goal and the way it already sold itself to the public).
3. We're here to give our feedback, our opinion, on the present and future design, so I don't understand what your problem here is really.
and it's there in black and white (and yellow) that the secondary archetype is going to alter the primary's skills with their own effects, to "incorporate the identity" of the class.
They've got it in hand. We haven't even seen all the classes, yet. Give it time, and give them chance.
I give them all the chance, its the first mmo-rpg with serious potential I've seen in the last 15 years, long after the point where I found it clear the mmo-rpg industry is in clear decline.
Its why I'm here giving advices.
And making it clear that people will take class design very seriously and that they won't accept a spraypaint and some small buffs you would espect anyway while leveling as a ''class/sub-class'' is a very serious point.
At this point, based on the devs's very vague explanations and the very limited gameplay we've seen ,it could go one way or another.
Same can be said about everything pretty much, nodes, ships, affiliations, etc
I do think your expectations of distinct might be higher than what they've been saying. Sure, 64 completely unique classes would be awesome but we're not getting that and you shouldn't expect that...
Maybe I was at fault for being not clear enough.
I don't expect ''unique'' classes.
I expect disctinct classes.
I don't even see how they could be unique when a templar is by definition a cleric and a necromancer a summoner and a battle-mage a... mage.
I must admit I've lowered my expectations with the augments approach to the basic "pick wizard as a secondary archetype to get +2 fire dmg to your main skills" level of low. Hard to get lower expectations than that; I should easily be surprised with something better.
I wish they went with the secondary archetypes giving a new branch to your specialization tree, with new skills and passives you could invest points into as you preferred. All those picking the same secondary would get the same options, no matter what their primary was.
Or better still: the Star Wars Galaxies way with no fixed classes, no level, XP per skill gained as they are used.
But we'll have augments, whatever they actually bring to your character.
Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You're getting all pissy about not being able to play a necromancer (a little unbelievable, given that the Summoner hasn't even been released to us, yet, but hey ho), and it's there in black and white (and yellow) that the secondary archetype is going to alter the primary's skills with their own effects, to "incorporate the identity" of the class.
They've got it in hand. We haven't even seen all the classes, yet. Give it time, and give them chance.
They don't want to do the research - they just want to share their fears.
I totally agree, too many classes with minimal substance and skills borrowed off other classes with a different name will wreck this game. Better instead to have much fewer classes in that case. Although Pathfinder:Path of the Righteous comparisons are apples to oranges its still worth noting that they have a million classes but many of them are just borrowing skills from others with a new name and thats it. Recipe for disaster.
If you want to start a fight don't bother looking for it here, I'll just stop replying if you continue being rude.
Wasn't being rude, it's simply how you come across. And, you'll find that you're the one who called me a rat earlier on, not that your opinion bothers me even in the slightest. Your threads all have the same kind of flow to them. You type out a huge stream of text about something that's already planned for the game, and then you make vague and sinister "predictions" about what may/might/possibly/maybe happen if some random occurrence happens. Just chill out, and let them make the game!
And please, oh please, stop replying without me having to be rude. Cos, that's what the Ashes fans want. See what I did there?!
Stop talking as if you speak for everybody. You aren't the center of the world/what people strive to be (no sure how else to explain this). It's just arrogant.
It has been said for some years now, that secondary class augments abilites
I'd just like to explicitly exclude myself from this 'we' business.
It's so weird when people start using collective nouns to try and prove their point. I only speak for myself, and people should start doing the same, in life in general.
🎶Galo é Galo o resto é bosta🎶
6
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Let's take the Fighter as an example:
The Fighter has a Rush Active Skill that allows them to charge x distance over time, upon reaching the opponent deals x damage and some condition modifier. If you apply a Teleport augment to the Fighter's Rush skill, instead of charging x distance over time, you immediately teleport to the target and you deal the x damage and the condition modifier.
To clarify...this question says it changes the "flavor"... That's not entirely accurate.
So, the design behind augments is to not just change the flavor so that it reflects the Secondary Archetype...but it also fundamentally changes the core components of a skill.
So... When you're charging towards a target, there's a lot of things that can happen during that time. You can be interrupted through a CC effect, there can be a battlefield wall that's deployed, the target can go Invisible, the target can Teleport away, you could be charging them for a period of time as he runs away from you, leading you into other opponents... That's a very susceptible state to be in in a Rush situation.
Now, if you apply the Teleport, it's not just flavor. You have completely removed all of those potential effects from occurring during the charge. And you instantly teleport to the target. That's a significant vertical power increase on the skill. So, the idea behind the secondary archetype augment system is to provide that ability to move the dial between what your classic Archetype's role is in the Trinity system. And it does so by radically changing the core components of an ability.
---Steven
https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/aomez2/february_8_2019_questions_and_answers/ Q:In regards to secondary classes - will there just be visual changes to main abilities, or will they fundamentally change the way the ability works? STEVEN: They will fundamentally change the way the ability works - adapting what the ability once did to incorporate the identity of the secondary class.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The way that Summoning works is:
Players have Active Skills as a Summoner to Summon a particular type of Summon.
And those types of Summons you can Summon will be adherent to the Trinity class system.
So, you will have a more Tank oriented type Summon available to you, as well as a more Support oriented type Summon and a DPS type Summon. So you're going to want to choose which one you want to use at any given encounter, based on the necessity of the encounter.
As you apply the Cleric Secondary class and have available to your Summon class Active Skills the augments of Life or Death, you're going to radically change the type of Summon that you can have for each of those roles. And that's going to take on, obviously, the subtype, Undead. So.. Skeletons, Zombies, and a different Horror type undead.
That's to give more information on the Necromancer side.
---Steven
Comments
WoW has 10 different speel caster just as DPS. Gameplay and visual effects are different. I Don't think a game with 64 different classes and action combat can have that diversity.
Then it's their fault for not doing research if they end up disappointed. It's not like the information on the classes is top secret stuff, we already know what they're going for and a quick Google search will show that.
I really need your glass sphere.
Sure, here's your crystal ball
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Classes
That sufficiently explains what Intrepid are going for with the class system.
What's promised and what is delivered could be entirely different things. I think that is what they are worried about.
Reading the OP makes it sound like he's crying about what Intrepid has always been going for. I've never read a quote in the 4+ years I've followed this game that said all the classes were some 100% unique thing, yet OP is saying "they promised this, they promised that" as if Intrepid promised that Necromancer and Templar and Scion and all these classes were unique and match their class names 100%.
I get what your saying, but that would still make it advertising through clickbait. They're basically advertising something banking on people's preconceived ideas of what the word class means, and then saying that class means something different for us. Think of it like this. You have a preconceived idea of what a dungeon is: bunch of mobs, three to five bosses, maybe a puzzle or two. And they advertised a tagline of "we have over 100 dungeons." But then each of these dungeons was like a shrine from BotW. Maybe a couple minion waves, or maybe a puzzle or two, or just a single boss. People would be upset.
I think that is where their sentiment is coming from... But I get what you're saying, it's not a secret, Google explains it.
The devs do use terms differently than is common for RPGs/MMORPGs - battlegrounds, for another example.
Classes are easy enough to Google/wiki.
Been signed up to the forum for less than a fortnight, and you already "know" what the fans who've been here three years or more want, eh? Why don't you speak for yourself, and not for everybody else...
I don't see there videos about gameplay and visual effects to all class combinations.
There are not a single informations about the differences. Your answer is inferior.
The developers are selling 64 classes.
This implicitly means there will have to be distinct enough.
If the devs fail to make this happen, it's on them, not the fans.
We already know nothing.
We've seen some very early alpha gameplay from just 3 classes (which they themselves were different compared to the wiki), without any real customization. On everything else we have very limited information.
Not to mention that its very very likely that these classes will look very different if not completely different at launch. Look at WoW vanilla. We had classes suffer massive changes between the pre-release beta and the release version.
So yeah what information? 98% of the data is unknown at this point.
So fans want an inferior product (redundant classes with cool names but nothing to back them up)?
You got me man.
Got to give you credit tho.
Your avatar (YaRrr) mathes your personality!
It's not inferior. Just cos you yourself think it is, doesn't make it so. There are plenty of us that are happily waiting for it.
Here you go, from the first section:
"A player may choose a secondary archetype when they reach level 25.[3] The combination of primary and secondary archetypes is referred to as a class.[3][1][4]
The secondary archetype does not provide additional skills.[10]
Secondary archetypes may be changed, but not "on-the-fly".[8][11]
The player can then augment their primary skills with effects from their secondary archetype.[3][7]
Each skill in the primary tree will have several augment options from the secondary tree. This is an example of horizontal progression.[7]
Augments to primary skills can fundamentally change the way the ability works - adapting what the ability once did to incorporate the identity of the secondary archetype/class.[12]"
Which esentially says nothing.
You could do or not do anything based on this description.
If you want to sell yourself the idea that classes/sub-classes not being distinct and not being deserving of their name (gameplay not fitting theme) is not bad, then do it, I won't lose sleep over it.
But don't try to sell it to me, its insulting. Its one of the main complaints regarding what was until recently the nr1 mmo-rpg (and was for like 16 years the top mmo-rpg), retail World of Warcraft, that classes/sub-classes (specs) are redundant, not distinct enough. Now imagine them being underwhelming too (which would be the case with subclasses if the gameplay changes wouldn't be notable enough and wouldn't fit the theme enough).
So sure, if you want an inferior product despite dev promisses implicitly saying the product will be great, fine.
But don't act like there's something wrong with me because I want a good quality product / like I didn't understand what the devs promissed.
You're getting all pissy about not being able to play a necromancer (a little unbelievable, given that the Summoner hasn't even been released to us, yet, but hey ho), and it's there in black and white (and yellow) that the secondary archetype is going to alter the primary's skills with their own effects, to "incorporate the identity" of the class.
They've got it in hand. We haven't even seen all the classes, yet. Give it time, and give them chance.
I do think your expectations of distinct might be higher than what they've been saying. Sure, 64 completely unique classes would be awesome but we're not getting that and you shouldn't expect that... Now the 8 primary archtypes are all going to feel different just by their base design, so you have that.
The 8 classes underneath each archetype are going to share a lot of abilities and flavor. I hope there is enough of a difference that I can at least tell them apart. As I said in another thread the best case scenario the different classes feel like different specs in WoW.
pretend the shaman is the primary archetype, but ele, enh, resto are the classes. They all use elemental shocks, totems, chain lightning because they're all the same primary archetype, but they play different from each other.
I think that's probably the most you should hope for in terms of uniqueness...
If you want to start a fight don't bother looking for it here, I'll just stop replying if you continue being rude.
1. I don't want to play a necromancer. I will play a templar or some other cleric combination.
2. I explained how the game could take a very bad turn by being lazy when it comes to class development (a realistic concern considering it's very ambitious goal and the way it already sold itself to the public).
3. We're here to give our feedback, our opinion, on the present and future design, so I don't understand what your problem here is really.
I'm not sure what you mean here.
I give them all the chance, its the first mmo-rpg with serious potential I've seen in the last 15 years, long after the point where I found it clear the mmo-rpg industry is in clear decline.
Its why I'm here giving advices.
And making it clear that people will take class design very seriously and that they won't accept a spraypaint and some small buffs you would espect anyway while leveling as a ''class/sub-class'' is a very serious point.
At this point, based on the devs's very vague explanations and the very limited gameplay we've seen ,it could go one way or another.
Same can be said about everything pretty much, nodes, ships, affiliations, etc
Maybe I was at fault for being not clear enough.
I don't expect ''unique'' classes.
I expect disctinct classes.
I don't even see how they could be unique when a templar is by definition a cleric and a necromancer a summoner and a battle-mage a... mage.
So yeah.
That would be a pretty good outcome, at least if we're talking classic.
I wish they went with the secondary archetypes giving a new branch to your specialization tree, with new skills and passives you could invest points into as you preferred. All those picking the same secondary would get the same options, no matter what their primary was.
Or better still: the Star Wars Galaxies way with no fixed classes, no level, XP per skill gained as they are used.
But we'll have augments, whatever they actually bring to your character.
Wasn't being rude, it's simply how you come across. And, you'll find that you're the one who called me a rat earlier on, not that your opinion bothers me even in the slightest. Your threads all have the same kind of flow to them. You type out a huge stream of text about something that's already planned for the game, and then you make vague and sinister "predictions" about what may/might/possibly/maybe happen if some random occurrence happens. Just chill out, and let them make the game!
And please, oh please, stop replying without me having to be rude. Cos, that's what the Ashes fans want. See what I did there?!
It has been said for some years now, that secondary class augments abilites
It's so weird when people start using collective nouns to try and prove their point. I only speak for myself, and people should start doing the same, in life in general.
Since I stumbled across one of these videos:
Let's take the Fighter as an example:
The Fighter has a Rush Active Skill that allows them to charge x distance over time, upon reaching the opponent deals x damage and some condition modifier. If you apply a Teleport augment to the Fighter's Rush skill, instead of charging x distance over time, you immediately teleport to the target and you deal the x damage and the condition modifier.
To clarify...this question says it changes the "flavor"... That's not entirely accurate.
So, the design behind augments is to not just change the flavor so that it reflects the Secondary Archetype...but it also fundamentally changes the core components of a skill.
So... When you're charging towards a target, there's a lot of things that can happen during that time. You can be interrupted through a CC effect, there can be a battlefield wall that's deployed, the target can go Invisible, the target can Teleport away, you could be charging them for a period of time as he runs away from you, leading you into other opponents... That's a very susceptible state to be in in a Rush situation.
Now, if you apply the Teleport, it's not just flavor. You have completely removed all of those potential effects from occurring during the charge. And you instantly teleport to the target. That's a significant vertical power increase on the skill. So, the idea behind the secondary archetype augment system is to provide that ability to move the dial between what your classic Archetype's role is in the Trinity system. And it does so by radically changing the core components of an ability.
---Steven
https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/aomez2/february_8_2019_questions_and_answers/
Q: In regards to secondary classes - will there just be visual changes to main abilities, or will they fundamentally change the way the ability works?
STEVEN: They will fundamentally change the way the ability works - adapting what the ability once did to incorporate the identity of the secondary class.
The way that Summoning works is:
Players have Active Skills as a Summoner to Summon a particular type of Summon.
And those types of Summons you can Summon will be adherent to the Trinity class system.
So, you will have a more Tank oriented type Summon available to you, as well as a more Support oriented type Summon and a DPS type Summon. So you're going to want to choose which one you want to use at any given encounter, based on the necessity of the encounter.
As you apply the Cleric Secondary class and have available to your Summon class Active Skills the augments of Life or Death, you're going to radically change the type of Summon that you can have for each of those roles. And that's going to take on, obviously, the subtype, Undead. So.. Skeletons, Zombies, and a different Horror type undead.
That's to give more information on the Necromancer side.
---Steven