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If 56 'classes' are just animation skins combined with buffs to the same ol'stuff, it will be tragic

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Comments

  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Ok, there's that and this

    For example: If your summon had a sweeping attack with a claw, or had the ability to bite an opponent, or rush an opponent; and you took teleportation, you could rush them similar to how I've given an example with the tank: Teleporting to a target instead. Or, its claws could combust on impact on a target dealing some burn damage that persists. Or... let's say your summon traditionally was some type of bear or bear cat, you could apply an elemental augment and now it could be a transparent flaming bioluminescent cat; and its damage would be fire based. So, that's how we want to influence the active skills with how augments apply; and that's how it would apply with Summoners.[14] – Steven Sharif

    Now is there any other example besides mage secondary augments?

    Legit, if you can find something I would be ecstatic because I haven't seen anything else besides mage augments anywhere.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited September 2021
    The last link/quote on Page 2 describes Cleric augments.

    Also:
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Healing#Cleric_augments
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Classes with Cleric as a secondary archetype are able to choose between life or death augments.[28][29]

    Choosing life augments will provide self-healing benefits as well as limited life-giving benefits to other players.[30][28]
    Some cleric augments applied to certain skills will indirectly provide the ability to heal others. These will not replace the need for a cleric archetype.[31]
    Cleric augments will radically change the type of summons available from the summoner primary archetype.[32]
    Skeletons, zombies and other undead summons will be possible with death based augments.[32][33]
    Any class that's going to choose Cleric as a secondary class will have the ability to pick from those augments to influence their skills to affect the life of others around you.[28] – Steven Sharif


    Ok
    Life & death.
    Life:heal others or self heal
    Death:summoner can now do dead things

    Still no juicy details though
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    https://youtu.be/KtVUiS7yAHE?t=6191

    The way that Summoning works is:
    Players have Active Skills as a Summoner to Summon a particular type of Summon.
    And those types of Summons you can Summon will be adherent to the Trinity class system.
    So, you will have a more Tank oriented type Summon available to you, as well as a more Support oriented type Summon and a DPS type Summon. So you're going to want to choose which one you want to use at any given encounter, based on the necessity of the encounter.
    As you apply the Cleric Secondary class and have available to your Summon class Active Skills the augments of Life or Death, you're going to radically change the type of Summon that you can have for each of those roles. And that's going to take on, obviously, the subtype, Undead. So.. Skeletons, Zombies, and a different Horror type undead.
    That's to give more information on the Necromancer side.

    ---Steven

    That's really not informational. I am very aware of that clip. It is only informative if you are looking at the most basic of definitions.

    It tells you:
    1. Summoner will, have summons (shocking!/s) and they will have access to all holy trinity roles.
    2. If you have a support subclass it will bias your summons towards that support class and effects the appearance and aesthetic (something eadily found on the summoner page.)

    What it didn't tell you:

    1. Can my summons use abilities from other classes ?
    2. Does whether or not they can depend on my subclass?
    3. Will they get AoE spells? Do I need an augment for this? How about AoE DoT noxious clouds?
    4. Will I be able to heal with my summon?
    5. What sort of augments will the necromancer even grant that distinguishes it from other class options.
    6. Does the necromancer now have the ability to heal themselves while attacking things?
    7. What about self healing summons
    8. Will the necromancer get buffs/debuffs separate from the summons activation abilities
    9. Can they reraise fallen summons (we STILL don't know if summons die permanently or even if they can be unsummoned and switched out.)
    10. AoE party buffs?
    11. Can I absorb my zombies hp in a pinch?

    I could keep going but the point is how augmenting works relative to class mechanics is very much up in the air.

    Node coffers: Single Payer Capitalism in action
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited September 2021
    JustVine wrote: »
    That's really not informational. I am very aware of that clip. It is only informative if you are looking at the most basic of definitions.
    Which is fine since I wasn't talking to you.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Life & death.
    Life:heal others or self heal
    Death:summoner can now do dead things

    Still no juicy details though
    We're not going to get "juicy" details because Steven wants there to be some mystery rather than knowing everything months and years before release.
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    JustVine wrote: »
    That's really not informational. I am very aware of that clip. It is only informative if you are looking at the most basic of definitions.
    Which is fine since I wasn't talking to you.

    If you want a conversation to not be interacted with by others stick to pm.
    Node coffers: Single Payer Capitalism in action
  • TalentsTalents Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Raidri wrote: »
    Talents wrote: »
    Sure, here's your crystal ball
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Classes

    That sufficiently explains what Intrepid are going for with the class system.

    I don't see there videos about gameplay and visual effects to all class combinations.
    There are not a single informations about the differences. Your answer is inferior.

    Where did I say it showed spells/visuals/whatever? I said we know what they're going for with the classes. Just because we don't see gameplay doesn't mean they haven't said multiple times what their plan is.
    nI17Ea4.png
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    JustVine wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    JustVine wrote: »
    That's really not informational. I am very aware of that clip. It is only informative if you are looking at the most basic of definitions.
    Which is fine since I wasn't talking to you.

    If you want a conversation to not be interacted with by others stick to pm.
    I didn't say don't interact. I said I don't care about your reply and what you wanted to know because I wasn't talking to you.
    Interact all you want. It's a free forums.
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    JustVine wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    JustVine wrote: »
    That's really not informational. I am very aware of that clip. It is only informative if you are looking at the most basic of definitions.
    Which is fine since I wasn't talking to you.

    If you want a conversation to not be interacted with by others stick to pm.
    I didn't say don't interact. I said I don't care about your reply and what you wanted to know because I wasn't talking to you.
    Interact all you want. It's a free forums.

    Ah mk. I post those things for other people, not you. You don't ever need to clarify to me you don't care. It is always apparent. It is up to you if you interact with things I post for other people.
    Node coffers: Single Payer Capitalism in action
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited September 2021
    Well, you posted, "I am very aware of that clip".
    And my response is I don't care if you are because I did not post that clip for you.
    I don't know why you let other people know that you are aware of that clip, but it doesn't matter - because I also don't care.
    Nothing you wrote in that post has anything to do with what I've been saying in this thread - nor is it related to why I posted the clip.

    The key part of what I quoted is that augments radically change the core components of Active Skills. It's not "just animation skins combined with buffs to the same ol' stuff".
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    JustVine wrote: »
    That's really not informational. I am very aware of that clip. It is only informative if you are looking at the most basic of definitions.
    Which is fine since I wasn't talking to you.

    If you are posting something for a specific person, quote or @ that person.

    Basic forum decency.
  • daveywavey wrote: »
    Wasn't being rude

    Then you lack understanding of the english language because calling someone ''pissy'' is an insult.

    If you don't believe me, google ''pissy dictionary''. It is marked as ''vulgar slang''
    daveywavey wrote: »
    And, you'll find that you're the one who called me a rat earlier on

    I said no such thing and, again, if thats what you understood, then the problem is your understanding of the english language.

    I explicitly said that your avatar matches your personality because of the pirate eye-patch.
    What do you think the ''Yarr'' was about?

    Do rats make ''yarr'' noises?
    Do they also plunder and pillage?

    No dude, you were being totally toxic.
    daveywavey wrote: »
    not that your opinion bothers me even in the slightest.

    No, seriously, if you have no game/feed-back related points to made, why are you taking so much topic space, clogging up the feedback forum?
    daveywavey wrote: »
    You type out a huge stream of text about something that's already planned for the game, and then you make vague and sinister "predictions" about what may/might/possibly/maybe happen if some random occurrence happens. Just chill out, and let them make the game!

    1. I said nothing vague
    2. I made no predictions (prediction = a scenario which one believes will happen in the future =/= a scenario which one hopes won't happen in the future).
    3. Whats already planned for the game? Because based on the vague explanations of the devs so far it could be anything from very underwhelming to very overwhelming design. This is an early alpha forum and if you consider I'm doing something bad by pointing out we would rather have the better possibility in terms of development, then the problem is with you.
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Cos, that's what the Ashes fans want. See what I did there?!

    Being a pvp-er (pirate) in a pvp focused game is not toxic.
    Throwing insults and clogging up a feedback forum with non-game/non-feedback related writing is.
  • IronhopeIronhope Member
    edited September 2021
    JustVine wrote: »
    If you want a conversation to not be interacted with by others stick to pm.

    Yeah I mean I have no idea who he is talking to either.
    I'd be surprised if it was me since I actually gave some of the examples he brought from that stream as examples, but then, he mostly replies to my posts without reading them so there's that.

    Either way if he was trying to talk to me, thanks for answering him because you did a great job.


  • ShadonSolShadonSol Moderator, Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Reminder to stay on topic and be constructive.
    volunteer_moderator.gif
  • Looking on what the Aoc wiki has:
    A player may choose a secondary archetype when they reach level 25.[3] The combination of primary and secondary archetypes is referred to as a class.[3][1][4]
    The secondary archetype does not provide additional skills.[10]
    Secondary archetypes may be changed, but not "on-the-fly".[8][11]
    The player can then augment their primary skills with effects from their secondary archetype.[3][7]
    Each skill in the primary tree will have several augment options from the secondary tree. This is an example of horizontal progression.[7]
    Augments to primary skills can fundamentally change the way the ability works - adapting what the ability once did to incorporate the identity of the secondary archetype/class.[12]

    It says you don't get additional skills from the secondary type but can augment their primary skills with effects.
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Wyborn wrote: »
    It says you don't get additional skills from the secondary type but can augment their primary skills with effects.

    And we don't know to what scale those secondary augments will be able to change the primary skills, so we don't really know how a lot of it is going to work yet
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    With three threads talking about the same thing started by the same guy.
    We need more information from Intrepid on this stuff to have a good idea on how stuff will work out.
    We could converse "what we think will happen" till launch but it is all perception and theory crafting.

    I would start with the other 5 archetypes first before introducing the augments but I am a lil crazy some times.

    Up side is I like seeing all the different view points especially the ones I disagree with to get a better idea how the community thinks.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • With three threads talking about the same thing started by the same guy.

    None of the threads talk about the same thing.

    I made a topic warnding the devs that a notable amount of people will only play one class.

    I made one warning them of a basic mmo-rpg developer mistake when it comes to hybrid classes (having them underperform in all areas even when they've chosen to specialize in one).

    And I made one warning that expressed a valid concern that the 56 sub-classes might not be distinct enough , based on the very vague explanations gives by the devs, and that they're on the edge of false advertising based on how they sold their ''64 classes'' on social media.

    Either you have a personal, very forced definition of ''same thing'' or you didn't give my posts a serious read.\
    We need more information from Intrepid on this stuff to have a good idea on how stuff will work out.
    We could converse "what we think will happen" till launch but it is all perception and theory crafting.

    We should give as much feedback early on as possible because later on after things are actually developed for us to see, they're going to be hard to undo.

    The earlier we give feedback on what we expect/want things to look, the better.
    Up side is I like seeing all the different view points especially the ones I disagree with to get a better idea how the community thinks.

    That was one of the main things I had in mind when I made those posts.

  • Swifty00Swifty00 Member
    edited September 2021
    Sounds like you want 64 archetypes and there just are not 64 different class defining mechanics, but there are 64 class defining combinations. Right now we have (a wild guess) primary - secondary:
    tank- taunting/aggro - less squishyness.
    Cleric - healing - healing from abilities
    Mage - magic ranged dps - mana regen from abilities
    Ranger - physical ranged dps - snares
    Bard - buffs/debuffs - debuffs from abilities
    fighter - physical melee dps - increased damage
    rogue - stealth - mobility
    Summoner - tank pets - dps pets

    Now there are possibly a couple more archetypes possible, but I think they chose 8, so that it matched their basic group size. So the basic mechanics of a necromancer are pets, zombies etc., and healing triggered by dps. If there is something in the game that then puts a look and feel on abilities, based on the combination of archetype and augment, particularly if you add a visual and story based on an evil religious augment, then you are getting the essence of a necromancer. And you get the ability to make a "Good" necromancer raising Nicholas Cages to fight evil, with presumably an avenging angel aesthetic.

    So you not only get a unique ability from your primary archetype, you also get a unique ability from your secondary archetype. So only a summoner can have a tank/healer pet, but only someone with a secondary cleric can have healing from dps. Your zombies may do small dps as tanks, but also heal you when they dps. They will essentially be unique healer/dps pets. No other class combination will have them and ALL your pets will have it.

    Personally, I think you will be getting exactly what you want with this system; you just don't realize it.

    I think the thing that is confusing people is that the Alpha didn't have augments so some of the classes had abilities that they will only get if they go mage-mage or cleric-cleric.
  • Swifty00 wrote: »
    Sounds like you want 64 archetypes and there just are not 64 different class defining mechanics. Right now we have

    I don't. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

    I do expect and demand that they be distinct enough and that their theme fit their gameplay. Dev explanations so far are vague enough to raise concerns and I'd rather voice my concerns now, while the ''metal'' is still ''hot'' and easy to mold, rather than later when its colder and its already quite hard to change.

    Either way, each class being unique wouldn't make sense.

    Necromancers are by definition summoners.
    Shamans are by definition a cleric caste.
    Knights are by definition tanks.
    A predator is by definition a rogue.

    So yeah, it wouldn't make sense for them to be unique. Thats not what I asked.

    Swifty00 wrote: »
    Now there are possibly a couple more archetypes possible, but I think they chose 8, so that it matched their basic group size. So the basic mechanics of a necromancer are pets, zombies etc., and healing triggered by dps. If there is something in the game that then puts a look and feel on abilities, based on the combination of archetype and augment, particularly if you add a visual and story based on an evil religious augment, then you are getting the essence of a necromancer. And you get the ability to make a "Good" necromancer raising Nicholas Cages to fight evil, with presumably an avenging angel aesthetic.

    What I really hope is that that character customization (talents, gear, tattoos, node affiliation, organization/religious affiliation, etc) will be more relevant and hybrids will be viable.

    I really would dislike if my templar would be another wow classic retribution paladin (hybrids in wow were only fixed in TBC when hybrids were allowed to actually be good at what they specialized in, before that most weren't played at all almost and were, with very few exceptions, just memes).

  • What I really hope is that that character customization (talents, gear, tattoos, node affiliation, organization/religious affiliation, etc) will be more relevant and hybrids will be viable.

    I really would dislike if my templar would be another wow classic retribution paladin (hybrids in wow were only fixed in TBC when hybrids were allowed to actually be good at what they specialized in, before that most weren't played at all almost and were, with very few exceptions, just memes).

    I don't think, at this stage, hybrids exist in the sense you are using the term. You need to be a tank to tank, and a cleric to heal, but you need proportionally the right number of them. For raiding you will probably need at least one tank-tank.

    I just don't see why anyone would want a hybrid, or that there will be any demand for hybrids.


  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Swifty00 wrote: »
    I just don't see why anyone would want a hybrid, or that there will be any demand for hybrids.

    It might be better for soloing and/or PvP, both of which will be huge.

    As long as you're not a liability to a group you should be able to contribute and be welcome. I'm hoping that any class is viable even if it's not optimal.
     
    Hhak63P.png
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited September 2021
    Any Tank/X will be viable in raids and dungeons, etc.
    "Hybrids" like Tank/Rogue work just fine because it allows the Tank to stack damage types, like Bleeds, with the Rogue/x and any x/Rogue in the group.
    Same for a Tank/Mage who wants to stack Elemental damage with the Mage/x and any x/Mage in the group.

    (Gear does not determine combat role)
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited September 2021
    Ironhope wrote: »
    With three threads talking about the same thing started by the same guy.

    None of the threads talk about the same thing.

    I made a topic warnding the devs that a notable amount of people will only play one class.

    I made one warning them of a basic mmo-rpg developer mistake when it comes to hybrid classes (having them underperform in all areas even when they've chosen to specialize in one).

    And I made one warning that expressed a valid concern that the 56 sub-classes might not be distinct enough , based on the very vague explanations gives by the devs, and that they're on the edge of false advertising based on how they sold their ''64 classes'' on social media.

    Either you have a personal, very forced definition of ''same thing'' or you didn't give my posts a serious read.\
    We need more information from Intrepid on this stuff to have a good idea on how stuff will work out.
    We could converse "what we think will happen" till launch but it is all perception and theory crafting.

    We should give as much feedback early on as possible because later on after things are actually developed for us to see, they're going to be hard to undo.

    The earlier we give feedback on what we expect/want things to look, the better.

    Give feedback on what? There is almost nothing there. Just them stating this is our intent. Tough to give feedback on intent. Need to see follow through so we can give feedback. Everything else is perception and theory crafting.
    Up side is I like seeing all the different view points especially the ones I disagree with to get a better idea how the community thinks.

    That was one of the main things I had in mind when I made those posts.

    Go read all three threads. They are mostly the same people talking about the same thing.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two

    Go read all three threads. They are mostly the same people talking about the same thing.

    Lol
    You're not wrong
    But I think it's because the conversation gets caught on the same snag. Tanks and healers.

    If you want to blend a mage and rogue that's cool. Hunter and mage, sounds good. Rogue and hunter, I like it.

    But when you bring in tank it gets weird... And you want to ask "how much tank are you trying to bring over here?" Just a lil bit of tank? Or a lot of tank? Enough to where he can 'tank tank' or just enough to make solo'ing easier? Enough to use in dungeons? Or should I just double down on being a mage since i hide in the back behind the tank anyways? Will it be mandatory for PvP so I don't get wrecked too fast?

    So much grey area...
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Not really. It's pretty simple.
    Don't expect an x/Tank to main Tank.
    After that, sure, you have a lot of variance regarding how many augments you wish to use that generate Threat and provide Damage Mitigation... along with any augments you like from the other 2 Tank Schools.

    How roguey do you want your Mage to be?
    How magey do you want your Fighter to be?
    How bardy do you want your Cleric to be?
    All depends on how you like to play.

    It's no more strange for Tank than it is for the Archetypes.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two

    Go read all three threads. They are mostly the same people talking about the same thing.

    Lol
    You're not wrong
    But I think it's because the conversation gets caught on the same snag. Tanks and healers.

    If you want to blend a mage and rogue that's cool. Hunter and mage, sounds good. Rogue and hunter, I like it.

    But when you bring in tank it gets weird... And you want to ask "how much tank are you trying to bring over here?" Just a lil bit of tank? Or a lot of tank? Enough to where he can 'tank tank' or just enough to make solo'ing easier? Enough to use in dungeons? Or should I just double down on being a mage since i hide in the back behind the tank anyways? Will it be mandatory for PvP so I don't get wrecked too fast?

    So much grey area...

    Everyone is talking about classes , augments and how grouping will work. Some people want Ashes to devolve into a GW2 clone and some of is want what was promised in the early days of getting back to what made MMO's great in the old days and adding newer stuff like the nodes.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • Go read all three threads. They are mostly the same people talking about the same thing.

    You said ''the threads are talking about the same things'' (you accused me of being repetitive).

    This is far from the ''people in those threads are talking mostly about the same things''.

    I can't be held accountable for what others talk about in the topics I made, I can only be reasonably held accountale for what I wrote (including and especially the topics thesmelves).

    So please don't formulate claims to sound like accusations if you don't intend to throw an accusation.
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