Monthly fee and microtransactions?

Looking at the packs it seems to me like the game si intended to have a monthly fee and microtransactions.
Is this true? It feels like double dipping to me.

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Noaani

Odal wrote: »

profk wrote: »

Looking at the packs it seems to me like the game si intended to have a monthly fee and microtransactions.
Is this true? It feels like double dipping to me.

Agree, that's the one thing I dislike with Ashes. Cash-shop. Allready.
You want to pay subscription to avoid having any cash-shops ruining the game. Not to have them both.
I think buying cosmetics is almost as bad as P2w, because Cosmetics is a huge part of an MMORPG, and if you can buy things for real money to look cool. Then what is the point?

I hate that this is the new standard of games. I would normally never play a game with a cash-shop if it's an MMORPG or RPG, but Ashes can be an exception knowing that Steven is very well aware of the problem with Pw2 and all of that, and has a good vision and ideal for the game. But still..

I'm actually quite happy with the payment system, as long as they keep to what they have stated.

It will be the cheapest MMO I have ever played.

Since in most games I tend to change my look about once every two years, even if I stick to that time frame, and even if I go full cash shop, I'll spend a whole lot less than I would in a game with a box cost and yearly paid expansions.

Noaani

Odal wrote: »

The cheapest? I paid 12.99 for WoW and could change my looks in TBC. For Free.

No, you paid $60 for WoW, and then a subscription of $15 a month (or $13 a month if you paid for 6 months at a time). You also bought each and every expansion that WoW has released.

That $15 a month is the same as what Intrepid are asking you to pay for Ashes. There may or may not be a multi-month package in Ashes that may or may not see you paying a total of $13 a month for the game.

HOWEVER, little one, you were paying $15 a month in 2004, inflation alone would make that $21.72 today. Even your $13 a month would work out to be $18.83 today - which is more than Intrepid is asking for at $15 in todays money, not 2004's money.

So, the subscription is the same in basic terms, significantly less in real terms, and Intrepid are not asking for a box cost or for you to pay for expansions.

Take that $60 every 2 years or so you would spend on expansions (adjusted for inflation that would now be $86.98), in addition to the $6.72 per month ($161.28 over two years), and you have $248.26 (adjusted for inflation) every two years that Blizzard required you to pay, that Intrepid does not.

That is a shitload of cosmetics, tbh. If you spend less than that on them, then Ashes will be cheaper for you, too.

daveywavey

Odal wrote: »

248 seems very reasonable to me for two years. Way way better than Cash-shops. Way better.

To be honest, I'd much rather have a cosmetic-only cash shop that I don't ever need to spend in, than have to pay an extra $248 to get rid of it. As long as it stays cosmetic-only, and we don't get any more of those fricking corgi abominations, then I really don't see the problem.

cyanideinsanity

profk wrote: »

Reading a bit fast are you?

"Arenanet has quite successfully demonstrated that you can just live on box price if you predict your back-end expenses well and build them into the box price up front."

As for the rest, all of the other games gave you back your box cost in free sub months.

Thank you for playing.

//plonk

Is this why gw2 went f2p, has cosmetic mtx let you buy gold via gem conversion, and sold unbreakable gathering tools that are character bound? I havent played in years so i dont know exactly how those tools are.

cyanideinsanity

Odal wrote: »

cyanideinsanity wrote: »

profk wrote: »

Reading a bit fast are you?

"Arenanet has quite successfully demonstrated that you can just live on box price if you predict your back-end expenses well and build them into the box price up front."

As for the rest, all of the other games gave you back your box cost in free sub months.

Thank you for playing.

//plonk

Is this why gw2 went f2p, has cosmetic mtx let you buy gold via gem conversion, and sold unbreakable gathering tools that are character bound? I havent played in years so i dont know exactly how those tools are.

It's probably to increase player base more than anything. MMORPG:s playerbase dwindle over time, so while Gw2 was really succesful without this bullshit, it's still in the nature of things that the amount of players dwindle and then they do moves like this.

That's my guess anyway.

Funny thing is gw2 had all but the f2p aspect since launch i believe. Or at least since around when i started playing shortly before living world season one in 2013.

cyanideinsanity

Odal wrote: »

cyanideinsanity wrote: »

Odal wrote: »

cyanideinsanity wrote: »

profk wrote: »

Reading a bit fast are you?

"Arenanet has quite successfully demonstrated that you can just live on box price if you predict your back-end expenses well and build them into the box price up front."

As for the rest, all of the other games gave you back your box cost in free sub months.

Thank you for playing.

//plonk

Is this why gw2 went f2p, has cosmetic mtx let you buy gold via gem conversion, and sold unbreakable gathering tools that are character bound? I havent played in years so i dont know exactly how those tools are.

It's probably to increase player base more than anything. MMORPG:s playerbase dwindle over time, so while Gw2 was really succesful without this bullshit, it's still in the nature of things that the amount of players dwindle and then they do moves like this.

That's my guess anyway.

Funny thing is gw2 had all but the f2p aspect since launch i believe. Or at least since around when i started playing shortly before living world season one in 2013.

When I played Gw2 in the very start, they had nothing of it from what I can remember. I don't know what happend after that. I didn't like Gw2. Played it for like two weeks, maybe a month at most.

Perhaps not all of that was on launch, but at least the seeds were there in march 2012 prelauch. https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/mike-obrien-on-microtransactions-in-guild-wars-2/

Gizban

And don't forget: a sub makes it hurt when a wanker or cheater gets banned.

Gizban

Odal wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Odal wrote: »

248 seems very reasonable to me for two years. Way way better than Cash-shops. Way better.

To be honest, I'd much rather have a cosmetic-only cash shop that I don't ever need to spend in, than have to pay an extra $248 to get rid of it. As long as it stays cosmetic-only, and we don't get any more of those fricking corgi abominations, then I really don't see the problem.

I don't agree. I think cosmetics is a huge part of an MMORPG. I can still remember when I played WoW for the first time and saw a min maxing dude who was allready lvl 60 when I was lvl 30 on a skeletal warhorse. It was so cool.
If you could just buy it in a shop - who cares. ZzzzZzzz... ruins the game.

And buying expansions, releasing expansions makes it so you have something to look forward to. Especially for collectors of boxes and stuff.

What is WoWs end game? Get cool looking gear.
Not what AoC is about.

Noaani

Odal wrote: »

cyanideinsanity wrote: »

Odal wrote: »

cyanideinsanity wrote: »

profk wrote: »

Reading a bit fast are you?

"Arenanet has quite successfully demonstrated that you can just live on box price if you predict your back-end expenses well and build them into the box price up front."

As for the rest, all of the other games gave you back your box cost in free sub months.

Thank you for playing.

//plonk

Is this why gw2 went f2p, has cosmetic mtx let you buy gold via gem conversion, and sold unbreakable gathering tools that are character bound? I havent played in years so i dont know exactly how those tools are.

It's probably to increase player base more than anything. MMORPG:s playerbase dwindle over time, so while Gw2 was really succesful without this bullshit, it's still in the nature of things that the amount of players dwindle and then they do moves like this.

That's my guess anyway.

Funny thing is gw2 had all but the f2p aspect since launch i believe. Or at least since around when i started playing shortly before living world season one in 2013.

When I played Gw2 in the very start, they had nothing of it from what I can remember. I don't know what happend after that. I didn't like Gw2. Played it for like two weeks, maybe a month at most.

GW2 had microtransactions from day 1.

Not just cosmetic ones, either.

The first GW didn't, but they eventually realized they needed them, and added them to that game well before GW2 was released.

The GW series is not an argument against a cash shop.

CROW3

As long as the non-cash shop cosmetics don’t suck v. the paid cosmetics (cough BDO) I’m fine with it. There’s no p2w there.

Noaani

Odal wrote: »

pyreal wrote: »

Odal wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Odal wrote: »

248 seems very reasonable to me for two years. Way way better than Cash-shops. Way better.

To be honest, I'd much rather have a cosmetic-only cash shop that I don't ever need to spend in, than have to pay an extra $248 to get rid of it. As long as it stays cosmetic-only, and we don't get any more of those fricking corgi abominations, then I really don't see the problem.

I don't agree. I think cosmetics is a huge part of an MMORPG. I can still remember when I played WoW for the first time and saw a min maxing dude who was allready lvl 60 when I was lvl 30 on a skeletal warhorse. It was so cool.
If you could just buy it in a shop - who cares. ZzzzZzzz... ruins the game.

And buying expansions, releasing expansions makes it so you have something to look forward to. Especially for collectors of boxes and stuff.

What is WoWs end game? Get cool looking gear.
Not what AoC is about.

I think the "end game" depends on the person. That's the whole point for many in MMORPG:s. I know Steven has spoken about it before.
Some like to craft, for some it's cosmetics, for some it's PvP, etc.

For me cosmetics is important and that's why I don't like Cash-shops. I think it makes the game worse and it's a shitty corp practice.

So, in Ashes, cosmetics from the store are full costume, and unable to be dyed. Cosmetics gained in game are individual slots that can be mixed and matched, and can be dyed.

This means your end game in terms of cosmetics shifts from being about the biggest shoulder accoutrements, and more about finding a unique look by combining multiple in game items and applying dyes to get the exact color you want.

So sure, it's a shift in what the cosmetic end game is, but it is still there.

Noaani

Odal wrote: »

Yeah i've never liked that. I like when you can see who is powerful and not and what set they wear. etc.

Seems to me that it's not so much cash shops you don't like, as it is cosmetic slots or the ability to transmog - as either of these render the ability to see who has powerful gear obsolete.

I can't remember the last game that didn't have something along these lines.

Songcaller

I hope we will be able to pay the sub fee in our local currencies. Every time I buy a skin, a package or a subscription in dollars I get charged between £4.95 and £10 for the conversion fee. A 5 dollar item ends up costing me £10 to £15. I've only recently become aware and I'm making arrangements to divert funds elsewhere so I don't get struck with bank charges for every dollar transaction.

Atama

I know people don't like spending money, and that's all this thread is doing; griping about the fact that you have to spend money to get stuff. But here's the thing... The game is run by people who need to eat and to do that, they need money too. And the way they get their grocery money is that you give them payment for the services they perform to make the game you play, keep it running, fix problems, and add new stuff to it.

The monthly fee goes a long way to pay for the game but it's not enough. That amount of money has never been enough in modern time for a full-blown MMORPG, which is why as others have demonstrated in this thread that they all have to make additional money somehow. Most of the time that is done via microtransactions, because the beauty of microtransactions (IN THEORY) is that they are optional; you don't have to buy them if you don't want to, so you can feel free to play the game for a minimum cost and enjoy what other people are paying for.

The reason I said "in theory" is that many games, especially the "free to play" ones, have a little scam going where they claim that microtransactions are optional when they really aren't. They often put "paywalls" in place, where at some point it's just not feasible to get any further without paying for something. Or they restrict it enough that the game isn't enjoyable without paying; Star Wars: The Old Republic is like that, where the last time I tried to play it without a subscription I didn't even have enough slots to put all my skills into without paying money. And then there is the far-too-common situation where you just can't compete with other players who paid for great gear with real life cash in a PvP situation.

That is all "pay to win" but fortunately Ashes of Creation has none of that. This is a rare gem of a game where the microtransactions are all cosmetic. Not even World of Warcraft does that; while the vast majority of stuff you can buy from their shop are things like mounts and pets which give little-to-no real benefit in the game aside from looks, they do offer things like the ability to advance a character to max level immediately by paying cash for it.

Railing against microtransactions in this game is ridiculous. It's childish. You are asking for something unrealistic because, "I don't wanna!" The only alternative to microtransactions is to raise the subscription fee. You are literally asking to pay more for this game, and I'm sure you don't even realize it.

profk wrote: »

Myself Im willing to pay an initial box price but it should come with the equivalent number of months free, so what Im really doing is pre-paying a few months.

Here's what you do. You get a small box, stick a piece of masking tape on it, and write on the tape "Ashes of Creation". Pretend that's the box you just bought. Take $60 in cash and throw it in the box. Then for the first 4 months that you play this game, you take $15 out of that box, deposit that $15 into your bank account, and then pay the monthly fee. You just got exactly what you wanted.

(Or you can dispense with all of that silliness completely, but if it makes you feel better, go for it.)

Songcaller

I still plan to buy the Collector's Edition Steven said might be a possiblity. I also do buy skins a lot, however, even xsolla (who love to charge VAT on purchases) means I also have to pay bank charges to convert to dollars. I do not see it as unreasonable to request local currency payments - the devs will earn more in the long term rather than the current issue where I would be paying the equivalent of $25 to $35 dollars a time for the sub. I do not see why I should pay almost double the price when the devs still only earn $15. It would be a better choice if they would allow local currency payments so everyone has a fair deal.

tautau

If they accept local cash payments (from many countries) then you are simply shifting the currency conversion cost from you to AOC. What AOC then will have to do is to increase the price you pay slightly to cover the conversion cost....so you end up paying it either way.

Perhaps there is some entity (Paypal, Cashapp, etc.) which will cover the conversion cost for you. I don't know if there is, perhaps someone on these forums can share the info if there is one.

I know that I get credit card offers where there is no foreign currency transaction fee on that card, which might be worth looking in to if your credit is good enough.

Songcaller

I once saw a billboard in Florida which said 'Don't pay for your county, let the tourist pay for your county'. After 7 tours of Florida I never went back after the billboard was seen. I have no issue with higher fees if the company is gaining the higher fees but what I have an issue with is the banking sector taking the fees when neither the company nor myself are profiting. We discussed higher fees in a different thread (couldn't find the different thread which is why I resurrected this thread). The player base will be decreased across the globe if we all have to convert to US Dollars in order to play.

Songcaller

I believe if I use xsolla on cheaper items the vat and charge would be about £5 for a 5 dollar item. If I make larger purchases of over 50 dollars then £4.95 would equate to about £45 for a 50 dollar item so the maths work out in that favour. So, if I'm forced to pay $15 dollars a month sub I would use xsolla, if i can pay for a yearly sub over $50 I would just take the bank charges. It seems I would face bank charges in whatever form I would try to convert my pounds into dollars before the purchase. Some charge more than others. I will just use the bank with the lowest conversion charge. Its not percentage based, just a flat rate.

Edit: it's too bad I can't pay with Crypto Stable Coins. The rates are much preferred.
Double edit: Yes, I can pay in Crypto Stable Coins thanks to my crypto card. Perfection.
Treble edit: 'The purchase was completed successfully.' I love you IS

Taleof2Cities

Atama wrote: »

I know people don't like spending money, and that's all this thread is doing; griping about the fact that you have to spend money to get stuff. But here's the thing... The game is run by people who need to eat and to do that, they need money too. And the way they get their grocery money is that you give them payment for the services they perform to make the game you play, keep it running, fix problems, and add new stuff to it.

Great point, @Atama.

The only problem is the OP has been gone for months now ... and will completely miss the good advice or conveniently ignore it.

Atama

It’s cool. I wrote it for anyone who reads this thread, not just them.

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