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Combat target audience
Kr0_Val
Member
I love everything you guys are doing. I respect your latitude in developing these systems, and I implore you to design a competative/ extremely high quality/ vivid action combat system. (I'm not discluding tab targeting when I speak about this, just sharing some sentiment regarding action combat)
As a 22y/o who's played a variety of games from the age of 6, I lean towards competative FPS (Cod, Valorant)(with experience in mmos too e.g. Wizard101, pure tab targetting)
I think your combat system should appeal to the younger generation. I think it would be the most engaging form of combat, in terms of retention, vivid engagement, and innovation for this industry. People want to live this game; to live out fantasies that they can only see in animes (sword art online) or other fantasy/action movies, etc.
The last 10 years of gaming has denied us that for the most part, even with all the technological advancements, due to greed/misplaced priorities and lack of passion/innovation.
Take Valorant and Fornite for example(Even though Fortnite is run by a board of suits) Valorant has 16m active monthly users and growing. Fortnite had 80m monthly active users in 2020 (Most users 20 and younger) During covid, Valorant and Fortnite (Exluding Call of Duty*) was about the only oasis/ lake in this desert of a gaming market. With Valorant, whats being fed is high quality competative gameplay with innovation and passion behind the development that millions are enjoying, and have a strong taste for.. incomparable to the LOW quality other FPS/games that are hardly/never innovating, since their end goal is money.
* I didn't mention COD because it's casual, I also put 5000 hours in it as a kid. Plus, they HARDLY innovate. COD is like the fast food of gaming too. I digress.
I hope you design your combat system well. And consider a target audience of gamers that have been raised off of competative, high mechanical skill cielings of FPS (A LARGE percentage of young kids/ teens)The HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of gamers coming from Fortnite and Valorant, and COD. If you design a combat system built with competition, innovation, vivid engagement, and even ESPORTS in mind, you can see the same results as Fortnite, Valorant and Call of Duty in terms of retention and engagement!
Thanks for your consideration and ALL your HARD WORK!!
As a 22y/o who's played a variety of games from the age of 6, I lean towards competative FPS (Cod, Valorant)(with experience in mmos too e.g. Wizard101, pure tab targetting)
I think your combat system should appeal to the younger generation. I think it would be the most engaging form of combat, in terms of retention, vivid engagement, and innovation for this industry. People want to live this game; to live out fantasies that they can only see in animes (sword art online) or other fantasy/action movies, etc.
The last 10 years of gaming has denied us that for the most part, even with all the technological advancements, due to greed/misplaced priorities and lack of passion/innovation.
Take Valorant and Fornite for example(Even though Fortnite is run by a board of suits) Valorant has 16m active monthly users and growing. Fortnite had 80m monthly active users in 2020 (Most users 20 and younger) During covid, Valorant and Fortnite (Exluding Call of Duty*) was about the only oasis/ lake in this desert of a gaming market. With Valorant, whats being fed is high quality competative gameplay with innovation and passion behind the development that millions are enjoying, and have a strong taste for.. incomparable to the LOW quality other FPS/games that are hardly/never innovating, since their end goal is money.
* I didn't mention COD because it's casual, I also put 5000 hours in it as a kid. Plus, they HARDLY innovate. COD is like the fast food of gaming too. I digress.
I hope you design your combat system well. And consider a target audience of gamers that have been raised off of competative, high mechanical skill cielings of FPS (A LARGE percentage of young kids/ teens)The HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of gamers coming from Fortnite and Valorant, and COD. If you design a combat system built with competition, innovation, vivid engagement, and even ESPORTS in mind, you can see the same results as Fortnite, Valorant and Call of Duty in terms of retention and engagement!
Thanks for your consideration and ALL your HARD WORK!!
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Comments
Do you think it's possible that it can be made interesting enough for your generation?
The more you water down such an important aspect of a game, the less engaging IMO. But, my frame of reference is limited to so much, so.. I think the balance they're trying to achieve should be good. I just hope it leans toward action combat, since tab targeting seems to be the result of inferior/ older technology. And not as innovative as what you can accomplish with today's technology.
*Redacted/removed text due to updated understanding*
" I think Ashes considers an AOE to be tab targeting. Even without having a specific target selected so.. "
Your perspective about aoe is interesting to me. I got the very strong impression from Steven that the aoe attacks were one of the few things he considered action elements and will point to them as 'look at how hybrd we are omgz'. Which is.... An 'interesting' conception of what hybrid means, but that's a separate conversation.
So yeah, genuinely curious what leads you to think/feel it is part of the tab system or what about it feels tab like. Also what sorts of systems would you like to see relative to the 'dance' you were describing (the fgc calls its footsies if you want a singular word.)
You don't have to feel defensive towards Maow and I or think we are judging you. We were having a discussion awhile back on what your generation of gamer (both of us are half a gen older) would find appealing and unappealing about tab targeting vs action combat. So we are extremely intellectually curious lol. Sorry if that comes off strong but hey I figured you'd rather appreciate being included in on the subtext.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
Further on action combat.. I just want responsive, LOW PING <40 (128 tick servers) where your input is near instant, or as fast as possible. I'm a competative person. I want the combat system/ pvp to be developed for ESPORTS potential, even if it doesn't reach that. Just needs to feel fluid and have a high skill ceiling. If you watch fortnite, you'll see how its the current pinnacle of mechanical ability game wise. Obviously AOC have to reach a large audience, I understand that.(Yes I'm talking about you boomers
Honestly I'll probably be fine with whatever system they have. It's just, I know the human brain is a powerhouse, and theres always so much potential that usually is killed by lack of passion/ money as motivation with other companies. I'm not a game designer, so this is off the wall, but a combat system desiring to fulfil standards of "Next Gen" should take at LEAST 6 months to develop by Sr. Devs. Thats just the baseline IMO. Maybe I'm just too optimistic. But humans are capable of more than they know. I say, expand your frame of reference, stretch the "limits" of what's considered possible. If this is done right, longevity is at hand
I feel like this happens a lot in newer games. people come up with a certain method that's just more efficient at hitting targets and it becomes the meta style of play. I could easily see ashes falling into the trap of a greatsword axe or a halberd having a massive weapon Arc be the easier weapon to play to where people trying to use daggers very small range to them being more difficult to use. Like using the potion launcher in apoc, it was hard for me to miss with a magical grenade launcher.
Sure guy, but the discussion is on action combat/ hybrid system. You can have a high quality, competative hybrid combat system, without it being a first person shooter. I'm not saying make it a FPS. I'm considering things like anime, (sword art online), GUNZ, action fantasy movies, manga/ manhwa(SOLO Leveling) etc.. as references too.
Us older gamers and casual players will be the bread and butter of subscribers ..
I appreciate that take man, I'd probably feel the same in your shoes. I hope they can balance the hybrid system well for everyones enjoyment
Distraction aside I agree with a lot of what you said. I will try to avoid echo chambering too much. I think your point about number of skills speaks volumes to generational experience. Many older gamers here have experience with games that have many. This is partially due to a bunch of small things. Some limitations, aome tab target combat related. I don't expect Ashes to go beyond your comfort zone due to past remand,from Steven and I think this is good for streamability/searching videos of people playing. I expect prerecorded narrative driven creators to be more successful than streaming but having a clean screen economy caters to viewabilty in either case by a wide margin.
This is technically why I like rooted combat. In this system you have more nuanced moves with different meanings without 'adding yet another ability to the hotbar count.' I grew up with high ability count games but have definitely appreciated various action combat games progression of design on this front. Steven said they are leaning split body (so no real nuance in directionality), but the combo system at the very least sounds like its functioning off a similar 'hidden from view depth' principle.
As for your esports remark, like I said I agree with a lot you said, and have a detailed perspective as to why that is optimal design, but it will trigger a lot of dumb derailing if I explain, so for now I will hold off on it.
Is there any type of 'footsies' you'd like to see in Ashes? For example the 'dance' in bdo is write a bit different from say GW2 which itself is entirely different fron Archage and yet differing again from WoW. Don't have to use mmo examples when answering me either. In fact I encourage you use examples of whatever is easiest for you for my and Maow's data gathering curiosity
Any features indirectly combat related you would like to see (death mechanics, fortifications, gear choices etc)?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
Looking at the popularity of games like fortnight, minecraft, cod, overwatch, etc. i think more people have experience with aiming than tab. It's also more intuitive since you just have to look at your target to attack instead of having to look at them and select them.
Well, I don't want to be too much a portion of design consideration(given my inexperience), as I believe a larger scope of input is better, also, as much as I love mmos, or the concept of them, I haven't put as much time into them as a genre like I have fps, so I can't reference them the same as you haha. But thanks for the questions, I appreciate them.
I haven't delved too deep into consideration of things like rooted combat vs split body. I'd have to do more research. At face value I'd say split body sounds better, but that take is fairly limited of consideration/information input.
I also only really mentioned "dancing" in a figurative sense, referencing mechanical ability; But I like japanese animation. If you've ever seen anime, the battles are pretty dope. Check out a youtube short on them or something.. also look up "This game could've been the best esport ever" GUNZ. you could watch 5m of it, or read the subheading and get the gist it. Those are probably the best examples I could give. Or even fortnite, the way people can mechanically outmaneuver, or manipulate the battle to their advantage is exemplary game design innovation incomparable to any video game in general since the birth of them really.
So, however an mmorpg like ashes could implement an action combat system that brings out the best in players mechanically and competatively speaking, I'd love to see it. I wanna feel epic when doing a dungeon, not like its a chore, but like I'm actually there
Data is collected @JustVine.
Hi @CosmaAglow, I hope you get what you're hoping for.
What's your reaction time?
Same here. I vastly prefer tab target.
The devs are already trying for a high quality hybrid combat system - let's see if they can deliver something you can be content with.
Neverwinter Online, Elder Scrolls Online, DC Universe Online, and Secret World Legends are four MMORPGs I played pretty extensively that required aiming and moving around constantly. No sitting there, hitting tab, and then pressing a key to watch an animation. It's doable.
What I've played in Alpha 1 so far seems a lot closer to a traditional MMORPG for combat so far. But I don't think we've seen the real combat system yet. I also didn't think it was boring; now, I'm an older fella (my gaming started on Atari and an Apple IIe if that tells you anything) so I may have more tolerance for that sort of thing, so a younger person might have been bored.
I'm looking forward to seeing a more fleshed-out combat system in Alpha 2 and maybe we'll have something to actually judge by then. Or maybe not, we might not see the real thing until Beta. I honestly don't know.
Yeah I loved elder scrolls combat! I'd be satisfied with that combat tbh.
Only issue I disliked with that skyrim was the fact that the world scaled based on your level.
I vastly prefer classic tab target for range spell, and i absolutely don't want to have a action based system for farming mob all day long.
I don't mind some action based system for some spell, that could be rewarded with a slightly longer range for exemple, or for area spell. Maybe you can make some class more action based than other, like archery for exemple.
The thing i think action based system could shine is for melee.
I really like the system that was used in the first version of Savage 2 fps :
It was a rock/sicor/paper system, where you could either attack, interupt or parry.
I feel like that would give range a huge advantage then. If they were still tab Target for everything including just an auto attack that means the ranger would be able to pump out more damage just because his Auto attacks don't ever Miss.
And that's where the real difference comes into play between the two I don't think it matters what genre you're talking about, a skill shot is harder to land a hit than a click Target ability. whether you're referring to an MMORPG, FPS, or even a MOBA... It's just easier to click on a Target hit an ability and hit them with that ability then it is to aim your camera in a certain direction at a moving Target and hit an ability account for any offset for your Targets speed, and hope they don't dodge your shot.
I don't really care because I've played both styles of games and I enjoy both I'm just curious as to how Ash's hybrid version will actually pan out or whether it's just going to lean heavily towards one or the other because being a hybrid didn't pan out...
I think your combat system should appeal to the younger generation.
Did you really mean: I think your combat system should appeal to the players of a different genre of game?
The combat system of an RPG isn't aimed at an age group, its aimed at a RPG player.
There will be 10 yos and 70 y/os playing AoC. If we had access to the current account ages I think it would skew towards the 30+ lot, but thats a guess based mainly on a stagnant MMORPG field for the last 10 years.
Undoubtedly many of these same account holders have tried or currently enjoy 'battle royale' games, but these game are very far apart in terms of mechanics and the emotional payoff for the player.
The games you cited focus on shooting everyone else before they shoot you. The. End. Valorant was a cartoony version of CS:GO.
I played Valorant for a week or two, I tried Fortnite for less than a fortnight. I played CS:S back when for .. a while.
You mention COD because its a casual game and I understand what you mean. Too me, Fortnight is the lowering of the skill/technology bar. Its a mobile game that started on a pc.
No FPS nor battle royal game has any genes in common with AoC.
Edit: Thank you for a well written post. I hope you stick around and enjoy AoC for what it is.
Are we still ignoring APOC?
Lol...
But I could say the closest versions might be either vermintide or spellbreak (very different games I know, but kinda close in terms of the two genres you mentioned)
APOC?
/e looks to the left
I know not what you speak.
APOC/Spellbreak/Vermintide share a 'theme' -medieval/fantasy- with AoC, not a genre.
Yeah thanks for your response too guy. I'm just want ashes to really take a good look at their combat system. Yes I want them to consider gamers from a different genre, but I like to look at it in a larger aspect, in that these players will be trying out this game. And while I enjoy mmorpgs, if they can make the combat on par with something out of an anime, or action/fantasy movie.(Within reason, I understand they can only do so much) and with everything else they're bringing to the table in their systems that are really innovative and next level, I just hope the same is done with the combat.
There is such a large pool of rpg/mmorpgs to consider for them when designing their own combat system, that it really should be a reflection of the best ones we have to date. I think for lack of better words, that's about the best I can summarize it atm.
And about my detailed responses, yeah man, I want to feel what it was like to play my first mmo again(wizard101) I remember 14 years ago, literally only thinking about how awesome and well designed a game it is. I would literally only think about that most hours of the day lol. And that's been lost for me in the past decade or so. Steven has the Sr. Devs, and the resources (best game dev engine too) to truly make a next gen game. You consider how far we've come in 50 years technologically, you can't rule out what's considered "impossible" and I want then to reach for the stars