You actually have that backwards. Do you realize that?
'Manners are overrated' Says the piggy at the trough, eh?
I see why you think I had it backwards, I guess I didn't choose my words wisely.
What I meant was that etiquette is overrated as in people worry too much about it and might even go as far as demand Intrepid to enforce "rules" which ultimately goes against some of the concepts of Ashes.
In a game where being annoying might get you a hard time (AoC), you will think twice before annoying others. In a game where there's no consequences to anything (NW), you will do whatever you want.
I'm talking specifically about "bad manners" which do not involve PKing such as kill stealing, aggroing mobs to grief, etc which the game doesn't inherently tackles.
For instance, in NW people shouldn't be able to skin your kills for at least 15 seconds because there's no PvP (it's optional): that game has awful design. In AoC, if people are able to skin your kills as soon as you kill them, they might have a little surprise when they least expect it. That's how I want etiquette to work: not enforced by anyone other than yourself.
Obviously, I'm not saying there shouldn't be rules and punishment to people who abuse text chat, voice chat, upload dick pics to custom banners, etc.
🎶Galo é Galo o resto é bosta🎶
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The OP complained about people taking his skin in NW. Well that's what happens when you listen to weak minded people and you create yet another mmo in which you cant kill another player in the open world without their consent for PvP.
How the f did you get Hitler involved in there?
You are more of a dictator than me, demanding people to "behave themselves" in a video game.
If anybody hasnt used serious offensive language there is NOTHING that's going to force people to follow an "etiquette". Which "rEaL woRL" do you live in?
Telling me about laws...
You mean the laws that change on the fly, eg. an employer cant dismiss an employee for medical related reasons, yet in 2021 it was ok to do so?
Wakanda laws do you want in a video game?
If the programming code has been designed to allow an action IT'S legal.
If there is no code for, let's say a cleric/bard taking a selfie by a lv3 node, guess what? Taking selfies is illegal in AoC.
How about you let the developers say what actions merrit ban and you can get your notion of etiquette and shvt.
Is that mature enough for ya?
'Wakanda laws', selfies? Don't bring COVID into this. /e roll eyes
Drugs are bad, kids.
Stomping your feet and saying "Don't tell me what to do!" is about 4 year old mentality. And I feel that is the mental standard of your average millennial. Entitlement up the wazoo.
Hitler was having fun murdering millions, mean people 'ruined his fun'.
My point is that people can't be trusted to do the honorable or right thing, especially on the internet! They lose all inhibitions (if they had any) and treat others in a way that would put them in a hospital if they did it in person.
You say not to bring Covid into this then bring up Hitler.
I assume “Wakanda” was an auto-correct from a misspelling of “what”. George has done that in multiple posts. I’m pretty sure he’s not writing that intentionally.
It was hyperbole for emphasis.
Oil and water, I fear.
it seems like any game that's designed to allow players to grieve/be toxic you'll have those players doing so. Some say its wrong others its part of the game but ultimately its up too positive players to band together and mitigate the smaller toxic community. I personally love instanced dungeons but that system is horrible with toxic party members, I wonder if having a reputation system would work or just be compromised in the game.
However, if the troublemaker has not killed anyone, just interfered with a player's progress then it will be the reacter who risks gaining corruption.
But this is not needed. Depending on class theres bound to be lots of crowd control. Just use crowd control untill he becomes enraged, fights back and then you can kill him without corruption.
Avoiding getting corruption is going to be easy as hell:
1) be in a guild thats at war with everyone, you can kill almost everyone without consequences.
2) Be a citizen of a node that has hostile relations with everyone else, you can freely kill everyone thats not a member of your node
3) harrass the player with non leathal skills till he fights you back
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Sounds like design issues than community issues. This kind of thing is what I mean with designing the game so you can't be toxic than freedom with absolutely no rules.
The game should have the illusion of no rules, but it still needs some game systems to dictate the rules so toxicity doesn't run rampant. MMO's generally weren't that toxic until WoW came out. Ever since then there wasn't a single MMO that wasn't toxic ever again.. Well Except Guild Wars 2 and FF14. They got set ways they do things and usually abide by lineage 2/everquest etiquite for the most part. So I'd like to think that most of the old MMO community went there.
It's still mostly a community issue in the end, but it was amplified by doing nothing about it. The community shouldn't be hostile with each other from the very start. That is generally what breeds toxic communities. I mean look at LoL. That's got the worst community of any game because it's just pure toxicity. XD It's because the game doesn't give you a reason to be nice to anyone really. You generally aren't going to want to be nice to the guy going 1/10/1 on your team either.
Lineage 2 has some of the most out of control PKing a MMO ever had, but people generally weren't dicks to each other all of the time either.
The toxicity almost always comes from the rules being too lenient though. However silencing players because of toxicity will make them quit almost immediately. Also causes them to hate your company almost immediately.
WoW always rewarded you for being a dick until they turned off Master Loot. Did it too late though since the community was already a community of dickheads. Ninja Looting and women jokes are the majority of the drama in that game. xD They solved them now. No more Ninja Looting and no more women allowed in the game. Can't say I like the second solution all that much though. xD
As others mentioned you can kill them if they steal your resources. Also, you can post on the server forums and in essence blacklist them. I believe that you aren't going to be able to change your name in this game, so being naughty can get you ostracized in the game since the social aspect of the game is important. If no one wants you in their guild, it can make life difficult for thieves. Rudeness is always going to exist in games in some form. I remember in World of Warcraft with mining when there was an ore that was valuable because it had a low spawn rate and was needed to craft the armor and weapons in that expansion. People with flying mounts would swoop in and grab it before other players could get there even though the other player was there. The ore could be mined twice. I once had a rude person tap the second piece right after I struck the ore and got the first piece. I was clearly on that ore node and the person just didn't care.
It would be nice for rare mobs or quest mobs if a person got credit simply by tagging it with damage before it died so that they didn't have to wait for it to respawn. We all have choices in life. Ignore the thief. Blacklist the thief. Give them a taste of their own medicine. Follow them for the next two hours and steal all their resources. Form a hunting party of 40 people and take turns killing the person to share the karma. There are always solutions to problems.
The only time you will see any heed given to strangers in Ashes is if you see someone is in a guild that has a reputation for being able to retaliate, or they themselves have such a reputation on their own. This is why no name changes is a feature in Ashes.
The etiquette you call for will only be given by those who fear retaliation. There will be no morons standing in line to use a NPC when the server is at capacity, like in FFXIV. It generates no good will in that game, and it will certainly not score anyone any brownie points in Ashes.
Not only should you expect to have rare mobs taken from you, but you should also expect to be killed in the process.
My best advice is to make friends and don't expect to get anything valuable solo.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
3) harrass the player with non leathal skills till he fights you back
That will probably be against the TOS and might get you in trouble so I wouldn’t count on that as a viable strategy,
Why would it be against TOS?
I know this is an old post I somehow missed, but it’s standard for a game’s TOS to have some language that if you harass other players or break other rules of conduct (racial slurs, doxxing someone, etc.) they have the right to suspend or ban you. Much like banning someone on these boards.
That’s if we’re talking actual harassment, and not just “someone doing something I don’t like”.
3) harrass the player with non leathal skills till he fights you back
That will probably be against the TOS and might get you in trouble so I wouldn’t count on that as a viable strategy,
Why would it be against TOS?
I know this is an old post I somehow missed, but it’s standard for a game’s TOS to have some language that if you harass other players or break other rules of conduct (racial slurs, doxxing someone, etc.) they have the right to suspend or ban you. Much like banning someone on these boards.
That’s if we’re talking actual harassment, and not just “someone doing something I don’t like”.
You claimed "3) harrass the player with non leathal skills till he fights you back" would be against ToS. George was obviously asking about your claim relative to that and not obvious things like doxxing or slurs.
I don't think anyone will argue that toxicity detracts from MMO experiences. In my view however this does NOT fall primarily to the community to fix. Not because it isn't their responsibility, but because the community is already the problem, and there are very few pragmatic methods for the community to police itself that don't allow for enormous potential abuse. In my view, if we want to change the community, there needs to be in-game incentivization to act "morally" to facilitate a gradual change in behavior of the community over time.
A few points:
1. Introducing any mechanics or systems to PREVENT "toxic" behavior is not likely a tenable solution. Firstly, preventing players from engaging in toxic behavior does not in anyway change the disposition of players willing to engage in it - if one thing doesn't work, they will find other methods.
2. Due to point one above, trying to implement in-game systems to prevent toxic behavior is likely to result in bloated mechanics that require constant updates and development staff hours as players gradually find ways around whatever safeguards are put in place.
3. The actions considered "toxic" are based on perception of the players involved. While I have no doubt we could come up with a "Top 10 List" of etiquette "Do Nots", introducing mechanics to control these areas sets the precedent for more mechanics later if a vocal minority of the player base complains enough - a slippery slope leading again to point two above.
4. Carrot AND stick - as in life, in-game you get the behaviors you incentivize and enable. PvP is a good stick option if applied appropriately. Nuke the person who bugged you and take some of his stuff. Too high level, call your guild and group gank them. It won't stop all trolls, but certainly some. Hell, build a "Policing Guild" if you are so inclined designed to handle such instances.
That said, the carrot is where the real work is needed, and most of it on the developer side. Bluntly, if it is more rewarding to work together than it is to be toxic, the community will tend away from toxic behaviors (though there will always be outliers).
A few examples might be to scale mob spawns, or harvesting nodes in areas with high player count and player participation to prevent scenarios where a few players camp objectives, harvesting nodes, or quest mobs. Allocate a portion of loot and exp. to all players involved in combat with a mob - with proportionate share based on some measures of contribution - effectively neutering the kill stealing issue.
While I wish the community could handle the issue themselves, I think the impact of a careful approach from the devs will have the most impact in this area.
I guess what I am talking about, and if I was to start this thread now, after seeing answers, I would rephrase it, is anti-social behaviour.
Anti-social behaviour seems to be the norm in games these days. The example I used, stealing skins, is just an example. MMO etiquette is the term used to cover the unwritten rules that stop people being a jerk.
You're still in good shape though, @nidriks, because Ashes has open world PvP.
As many forum-goers have already said, you have options against players engaged in "stealing skins" that aren't available options in New World.
New World envisioned open world PvP ... but then decided very late in the development process to give players the choice to flag for PvP. A very bad decision that resulted in some of the toxic behavior you describe.
I hope the premise of your post isn't an increase in enforcement of MMO etiquette at the expense of an Ashes change to player PvP opt-in (like New World). That's not going to happen.
Comments
I see why you think I had it backwards, I guess I didn't choose my words wisely.
What I meant was that etiquette is overrated as in people worry too much about it and might even go as far as demand Intrepid to enforce "rules" which ultimately goes against some of the concepts of Ashes.
In a game where being annoying might get you a hard time (AoC), you will think twice before annoying others. In a game where there's no consequences to anything (NW), you will do whatever you want.
I'm talking specifically about "bad manners" which do not involve PKing such as kill stealing, aggroing mobs to grief, etc which the game doesn't inherently tackles.
For instance, in NW people shouldn't be able to skin your kills for at least 15 seconds because there's no PvP (it's optional): that game has awful design. In AoC, if people are able to skin your kills as soon as you kill them, they might have a little surprise when they least expect it. That's how I want etiquette to work: not enforced by anyone other than yourself.
Obviously, I'm not saying there shouldn't be rules and punishment to people who abuse text chat, voice chat, upload dick pics to custom banners, etc.
It was hyperbole for emphasis.
Oil and water, I fear.
Eh? Do you read what you post?
But this is not needed. Depending on class theres bound to be lots of crowd control. Just use crowd control untill he becomes enraged, fights back and then you can kill him without corruption.
Avoiding getting corruption is going to be easy as hell:
1) be in a guild thats at war with everyone, you can kill almost everyone without consequences.
2) Be a citizen of a node that has hostile relations with everyone else, you can freely kill everyone thats not a member of your node
3) harrass the player with non leathal skills till he fights you back
The game should have the illusion of no rules, but it still needs some game systems to dictate the rules so toxicity doesn't run rampant. MMO's generally weren't that toxic until WoW came out. Ever since then there wasn't a single MMO that wasn't toxic ever again.. Well Except Guild Wars 2 and FF14. They got set ways they do things and usually abide by lineage 2/everquest etiquite for the most part. So I'd like to think that most of the old MMO community went there.
It's still mostly a community issue in the end, but it was amplified by doing nothing about it. The community shouldn't be hostile with each other from the very start. That is generally what breeds toxic communities. I mean look at LoL. That's got the worst community of any game because it's just pure toxicity. XD It's because the game doesn't give you a reason to be nice to anyone really. You generally aren't going to want to be nice to the guy going 1/10/1 on your team either.
Lineage 2 has some of the most out of control PKing a MMO ever had, but people generally weren't dicks to each other all of the time either.
The toxicity almost always comes from the rules being too lenient though. However silencing players because of toxicity will make them quit almost immediately. Also causes them to hate your company almost immediately.
WoW always rewarded you for being a dick until they turned off Master Loot. Did it too late though since the community was already a community of dickheads. Ninja Looting and women jokes are the majority of the drama in that game. xD They solved them now. No more Ninja Looting and no more women allowed in the game. Can't say I like the second solution all that much though. xD
U.S. East
Why would it be against TOS?
It would be nice for rare mobs or quest mobs if a person got credit simply by tagging it with damage before it died so that they didn't have to wait for it to respawn. We all have choices in life. Ignore the thief. Blacklist the thief. Give them a taste of their own medicine. Follow them for the next two hours and steal all their resources. Form a hunting party of 40 people and take turns killing the person to share the karma. There are always solutions to problems.
The etiquette you call for will only be given by those who fear retaliation. There will be no morons standing in line to use a NPC when the server is at capacity, like in FFXIV. It generates no good will in that game, and it will certainly not score anyone any brownie points in Ashes.
Not only should you expect to have rare mobs taken from you, but you should also expect to be killed in the process.
My best advice is to make friends and don't expect to get anything valuable solo.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I know this is an old post I somehow missed, but it’s standard for a game’s TOS to have some language that if you harass other players or break other rules of conduct (racial slurs, doxxing someone, etc.) they have the right to suspend or ban you. Much like banning someone on these boards.
That’s if we’re talking actual harassment, and not just “someone doing something I don’t like”.
You claimed "3) harrass the player with non leathal skills till he fights you back" would be against ToS. George was obviously asking about your claim relative to that and not obvious things like doxxing or slurs.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
A few points:
1. Introducing any mechanics or systems to PREVENT "toxic" behavior is not likely a tenable solution. Firstly, preventing players from engaging in toxic behavior does not in anyway change the disposition of players willing to engage in it - if one thing doesn't work, they will find other methods.
2. Due to point one above, trying to implement in-game systems to prevent toxic behavior is likely to result in bloated mechanics that require constant updates and development staff hours as players gradually find ways around whatever safeguards are put in place.
3. The actions considered "toxic" are based on perception of the players involved. While I have no doubt we could come up with a "Top 10 List" of etiquette "Do Nots", introducing mechanics to control these areas sets the precedent for more mechanics later if a vocal minority of the player base complains enough - a slippery slope leading again to point two above.
4. Carrot AND stick - as in life, in-game you get the behaviors you incentivize and enable. PvP is a good stick option if applied appropriately. Nuke the person who bugged you and take some of his stuff. Too high level, call your guild and group gank them. It won't stop all trolls, but certainly some. Hell, build a "Policing Guild" if you are so inclined designed to handle such instances.
That said, the carrot is where the real work is needed, and most of it on the developer side. Bluntly, if it is more rewarding to work together than it is to be toxic, the community will tend away from toxic behaviors (though there will always be outliers).
A few examples might be to scale mob spawns, or harvesting nodes in areas with high player count and player participation to prevent scenarios where a few players camp objectives, harvesting nodes, or quest mobs. Allocate a portion of loot and exp. to all players involved in combat with a mob - with proportionate share based on some measures of contribution - effectively neutering the kill stealing issue.
While I wish the community could handle the issue themselves, I think the impact of a careful approach from the devs will have the most impact in this area.
You're still in good shape though, @nidriks, because Ashes has open world PvP.
As many forum-goers have already said, you have options against players engaged in "stealing skins" that aren't available options in New World.
New World envisioned open world PvP ... but then decided very late in the development process to give players the choice to flag for PvP. A very bad decision that resulted in some of the toxic behavior you describe.
I hope the premise of your post isn't an increase in enforcement of MMO etiquette at the expense of an Ashes change to player PvP opt-in (like New World). That's not going to happen.