Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
"You Are My Content" - Being The Challenge
Azherae
Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
I'm curious as to people's general opinions on a specific thing that occurs in games like this, and can be almost exclusive to the PvP/PvX MMO genre, technically, because of the 'reward' and 'encounter' systems in those games.
Let's say you have a particularly skilled player Harry The Summoner, level 32, and Harry is out chillin' in his favorite spot outside a node that Harry isn't a citizen of, 'minding his own business', per se. Some other player comes up to Harry and decides that they don't like Harry's face and engage in combat, and Harry dispatches this player without much effort due to Harry's mad skilz.
Let's further assume that in Harry's mind, that's the end of it, I mean, he was just chillin', someone tried to PvP and failed. But that person lives in the node. So they drop off all their mats, and come back, and try again. A little annoying, sure, but Harry obliges them and smacks them around again.
Then when they come back, they come back with a higher level member of their guild. They don't attack Harry again, they just let the higher level member do it, for 'fairness' or something. Harry flattens this player too, despite them being level 38 (Harry is just a PvP god). Harry returns to hanging out, just killing mobs.
Next a level 40 Rogue shows up from the same guild and now it's a 2v1 with the original attacker and this rogue, and Harry still wins, since he brought enough potions or has some good time to heal up and impeccable summon control. So now Harry has beaten the original attacker three times, and the other two once each, and 'defended his spot', for next to no benefit since they don't drop anything.
Next they come with all three of them, and Harry, being the impeccable paragon of PvP skill that he is, schools all three of them at the same time. This repeats twice more.
On the fourth 3v1, Harry messes up a move and finally dies to the original attacker after still having defeated the first two. Chat lights up.
"Yeah! We did it! Take THAT, asshole!"
"Pwned."
"Thought you were tough, didn't ya, we got you though."
I've played games where somehow, this results in Harry now having 'enemies' that will basically never let him chill at that spot again, the moment they see him, they'll attack, or go so far as to gather even more people. Because Harry is now their challenge. Harry is now their content.
Some games don't consider this to be either 'griefing' or 'toxic behaviour', and my understanding is that Ashes will not, either. After all, Harry can just leave, and find a new spot to fight in, or 'bring his own group'. But Harry just wants to chill out and fight some enemies that he enjoys fighting, and that the other group wasn't even actually competing for; someone just wanted to PvP and found a target. But now, by 'being strong enough to require 3 people to kill him', Harry is a 'wanted man', even if it is that he is 'wanted' in the sense of 'people challenging him constantly to prove their own strength or practice'.
What should Harry do here, if this is Ashes?
a) Suck it up and move on, his favorite chill-spot ruined forever because he is such a PvP chad?
b) Convince his whole guild to come guard him while he runs around smacking a few mobs?
c) Gather people to raze the entire Node to the ground and then spend months building it back up?
d) Assume that they will eventually stop due to EXP debt if he can in fact manage to keep winning?
e) Assume that Ashes is not the game for him and go play a MOBA where he is explicitly rewarded for being the GOAT?
People often worry about PvP griefing from the perspective of 'players beating up on others who don't want to fight'. What about 'players throwing themselves at those who do want to fight, but don't want to fight forever'?
Let's say you have a particularly skilled player Harry The Summoner, level 32, and Harry is out chillin' in his favorite spot outside a node that Harry isn't a citizen of, 'minding his own business', per se. Some other player comes up to Harry and decides that they don't like Harry's face and engage in combat, and Harry dispatches this player without much effort due to Harry's mad skilz.
Let's further assume that in Harry's mind, that's the end of it, I mean, he was just chillin', someone tried to PvP and failed. But that person lives in the node. So they drop off all their mats, and come back, and try again. A little annoying, sure, but Harry obliges them and smacks them around again.
Then when they come back, they come back with a higher level member of their guild. They don't attack Harry again, they just let the higher level member do it, for 'fairness' or something. Harry flattens this player too, despite them being level 38 (Harry is just a PvP god). Harry returns to hanging out, just killing mobs.
Next a level 40 Rogue shows up from the same guild and now it's a 2v1 with the original attacker and this rogue, and Harry still wins, since he brought enough potions or has some good time to heal up and impeccable summon control. So now Harry has beaten the original attacker three times, and the other two once each, and 'defended his spot', for next to no benefit since they don't drop anything.
Next they come with all three of them, and Harry, being the impeccable paragon of PvP skill that he is, schools all three of them at the same time. This repeats twice more.
On the fourth 3v1, Harry messes up a move and finally dies to the original attacker after still having defeated the first two. Chat lights up.
"Yeah! We did it! Take THAT, asshole!"
"Pwned."
"Thought you were tough, didn't ya, we got you though."
I've played games where somehow, this results in Harry now having 'enemies' that will basically never let him chill at that spot again, the moment they see him, they'll attack, or go so far as to gather even more people. Because Harry is now their challenge. Harry is now their content.
Some games don't consider this to be either 'griefing' or 'toxic behaviour', and my understanding is that Ashes will not, either. After all, Harry can just leave, and find a new spot to fight in, or 'bring his own group'. But Harry just wants to chill out and fight some enemies that he enjoys fighting, and that the other group wasn't even actually competing for; someone just wanted to PvP and found a target. But now, by 'being strong enough to require 3 people to kill him', Harry is a 'wanted man', even if it is that he is 'wanted' in the sense of 'people challenging him constantly to prove their own strength or practice'.
What should Harry do here, if this is Ashes?
a) Suck it up and move on, his favorite chill-spot ruined forever because he is such a PvP chad?
b) Convince his whole guild to come guard him while he runs around smacking a few mobs?
c) Gather people to raze the entire Node to the ground and then spend months building it back up?
d) Assume that they will eventually stop due to EXP debt if he can in fact manage to keep winning?
e) Assume that Ashes is not the game for him and go play a MOBA where he is explicitly rewarded for being the GOAT?
People often worry about PvP griefing from the perspective of 'players beating up on others who don't want to fight'. What about 'players throwing themselves at those who do want to fight, but don't want to fight forever'?
Y'all know how Jamberry Roll.
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Comments
That scenario is just a part of the game. It's pretty much by design. Harry might eventually have to find a new spot to chill. Or he can chill by letting his attackers become his content.
This realistic scenario has harry get over his fav spot for a couple days and the other 3 may attack harry a couple more times anywhere on the world, but eventually they wont bother.
Dont be so dramatic.
However, the notion that players become content in the biggest failing of the PvP/PvX MMO. This means that as players realize they are being content more than they are participating in content, they will leave the game. These players leaving the game means those that stay in the game end up with less and less content, and so leave the game.
I've talked about this issue for several years here.
How does this go again... hmm... oh I remember...
"Don't tell me what to do."
Oh a lame cheapshot. Do you rly dismiss the fact that you have very narrow outcomes for your scenario?
Really, the only way for your harry to take back his fav spot is to "burn the node to the ground" because he is such a "pvp chad", beating those imaginary 3 losers over and over again, a destiny so cruel that will force poor harry to quit the game because apparently in an open world pvp game players are doomed to become "content for griefers".
Get over it harry.
If he's the type to defend his ego, he'll c)
If he's an anime character (coz this situation is a typical main character trope), he'll d)
If he's obssessively territorial with his favourite spot, he'll b)
in this particular case, e) is unlikely because if he's all about the PvP life then he will return to this spot over and over because he loves the challenge, and he's making a name for himself (which is the core desire for most PvPers I assume(?) - proving you are better).
But if he wants instant access to PvP all-day-err-day then why isn't he playing a lobby game?
(Which is where the factor of "what do my friends play?" plays a big role)
But I guess what you're really asking is: what would I do?
I think in the moment, I'd have a massive confidence boost since I just solo'd 3v1 and that would make me more aggressive, which would be something like d)
Otherwise I'm non-confrontational and a)
Actually I'm not asking for what you'd do, though it's appreciated for the data anyway.
It's just a situation that comes up because it skews a particular thing for some people. Some people are just naturally good at the games they play, and when there's no explicit matchmaking, this can happen a lot, to the better players. I don't automatically expect people to understand it, though, since, by definition, most of us are not 'the best'.
I had one player in the card game I used to run, avoid logging on because they would keep getting challenged on the rank ladder. They were pretty much undefeated, for weeks, but that meant the requests were constant, and the rules we had back then meant that you had to defend at least once a day or reschedule, if you wanted to keep the position.
They loved playing the game, but since they were obviously the strongest, they would be constantly facing challengers. And they were moreso 'naturally talented' than explicitly 'all about the competition'. They enjoyed it enough to want to play 'Ranked' sometimes, and weren't the type to 'forfeit' or 'give up their rank' (out of respect for the others working hard to keep up with them).
So, I guess that sets up the clarifications I should make, based on the answers received so far...
1) Harry likes fighting X creature because Harry finds that fun, assume the node is a Vassal that isn't likely to level more.
2) Harry doesn't care about 'making a name for himself', he wants to have his fun, but this is a PvX game, so he won't just 'not fight back'.
3) Harry is a natural PvP genius and can wipe the floor with most people effortlessly, to the point where he doesn't even understand why others don't see how to perform better against him.
So this is partially a question of what people philosophically perceive this situation as, within Ashes, and a check for something related.
I'm sorry that Harry didn't get to farm in his favorite location, but this is just how open world PvP works. It happens sometimes. Open world PvP isn't completely fair. It's not a 1v1 card game.
The benefit of open world PvP is that it gives players such a huge amount of player freedom that I can't even list all the things Harry could do in response, or the random circumstances that could occur to affect the situation.
Harry seems to be the winner overall and have the upper hand. I see no reason why Harry would be the one to leave when he's been thrashing them. If I were Harry I would continue to hang around PvPing, maybe even bring some friends to even the odds.
Sounds like a lot of fun for everyone involved, enjoying the game.
The attackers have lost a lot at this point, not only in XP and durability but probably also whatever resources they had (if any) and the time it takes to repeatedly travel to that place after dying.
gotcha.
Then if Harry's deadset focused on killing the mobs, I think he'll be more likely to take a territorial approach either:
I think for Harry, it becomes part of his challenge in the open-world - and as I said before, this trope tends to happen in the popular mangas/animes I used to read/watch - which I think means it's a romanticized ideal. That stuff usually needs a dose of reality, though - so for me I look to LoL's professional players and I see huge differences in personality that affect how they respond to incoming challengers:
So what does this mean for Ashes, where you don't have a "reject" button? I think there is a legitimate option to not fight back (even though you said he would for the sake of PvX). It's the equivalent of ignoring a challenge request, and if the other person is going to harrass you to death - then this only reinforces the stigma of corruption as a socially scorned behaviour. (Harry will incur loss at no fault of his own, and it will be unfair, but I doubt such things will phase a player with this level of stoicism - there are disagreeable people in every game).
Finally, I still think there's too many external factors here - Will players be able to track him even if he isn't in the area? How much sway does he have in his guild? Without knowing his personality, I don't feel I can answer this confidently. Also, I'd imagine Harry will always have friends around, even when grinding (?). This was certainly the case with high-end-players in Maplestory before everything became solo content.
Logically, the described scenario would most likely escalate into a full blown guild war. Once the griefers had the advantage, it's very unlikely that Harry's guild would just stand by and let their fellow be attacked on a regular basis (especially if they are bragging about it in chat). So Harry's guild start keeping their eyes open for these suspects and either start alerting Harry when they see trouble heading his way, or a Guildmate (or two) start keeping Harry company to tip the scales back to his advantage, or a few motivated individuals start hunting the suspects in turn.
From that point on the suspects either lose motivation because it is becoming too much trouble for the effort, or they up the ante by adding more members to their invasion, and the cycle escalates into war. Half the fun of these types of games is the way small incidents can spiral into world changing events (butterfly flaps its wings and all that).
Harry excelled in the 1v1 consensual PvP, so he may choose to fight whilst the odds seem "fair". In an open world there will always be a threshold where you are fighting greater numbers, greater gear and/or greater skill.
Groups may also try to bait Harry into consensual 1v1 PvP; if Harry goes purple then more attackers arrive. Harry is tied into a purple state for a period of time and runs for his life or dies. This is easy for a discord chat group to co-ordinate and poor Harry just stumbled into it because he likes PvP.
If Harry was terrible at PvP then he might figure out how to best use the corruption system sooner.
Harry could choose to stay green and let his attackers kill him. His attackers gain corruption. Harry then messages bounty hunters to let them know about corrupt players near his location. If Harry gets attacked in his chill spot repeatedly and stays green then he may end up being bait for bounty hunters to enjoy their sport.
The corruption system is intended to keep non-consensual PvP "loosely moderated" (*) whilst still allowing it as a risk vs. reward choice.
(*) I'm not sure of the best words to use here. I recommend reading up on the consequences of corruption if you are unfamiliar.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Corruption
https://www.ashes101.com/pvp#corruption
https://asheshq.com/corruption/
The corruption system implementation is still subject to play testing.
All of the above is just considering Harry as a solo player.
There are many more options if Harry is able to communicate with a guild or group of other players.
Assume that Harry does but you don't know what they are.
Assume that Harry's guild leader does, and this influences Harry. You can assign your own metrics as if you are Harry's guild leader (and whatever guild size you normally have). Finally, assume Harry is semi-casual in terms of leveling speed.
As for everyone else, thank you so much for all your data!
I'm familiar with the Corruption system, but this is not the thread for my opinions on it. The only note I'll make is that as of now, afaik only the last-hitter gains corruption, and they would probably have to do so around 5 times before it mattered. I'm sure the corruption system will handle most situations (or at least, I'm not willing to try to argue against this at this point in development).
Most of my Eve online friends are hyped for Ashes, most of my Classic Wow friends are as well. Myself i'm hoping that its going to be a mix between Wow Classic, and Eve online, Where you are excited in pve if you down a boss (Wow classic) and are excited if you succesfully do pvp. (Eve online)
Were going to try to form a guild, that controls one of the island nodes. we will ally ourselves maybe with a few other guilds and declare that area as our domain. Hopefully we'll be able to create something thats similar to 0.0 in Eve online, where Neutrals are warded, Reds welcomed to fight, and we have incursions from them, and do incursions in their territory. Their will be gun point diplomacy, backstabbing, drama, Fierce battles for nodes if we upset the other to much, Lots of skirmishes, when they get a whiff when were organizing a PvE raid, or have a valuable caravan. It will be glorios.
And Harry, He'll be in the middle, chilling, as friend, foe or neutral, We will have GF in "local" and hope to see him the next time, alone, with friends or with a horde.
So My choice would be
F) Enjoy the experiance, realize he had a fun time in game and come back for more the next time
As far as i know since Harry defended himself they are all considere combattants, they'll have the combattant status, but neither would gain corruption.
I believe the poster was suggesting that if Harry wanted the process to stop, he should refuse to fight back and lose on purpose. This might work even better in another way, since people who are seeking him out as their 'challenge' don't necessarily get their outcome if he doesn't fight back, but then he loses his materials/certificates/whatever, so it's double-edged.
My completely unfounded (gotta put this in for certain people, y'all represent!) concerns about the Corruption system's proposed implementation is that it will lead to a sort of abuse that makes players like you or me who really like this sort of experience, fall victim to a specific type of 'gaming the system' that removes the fun, but so far people have assured me repeatedly that I'm the only vocal one who both 'wants PvP, wants this sort of thing happening, but still doesn't like the system', so it 'will be fine'.
But the question posed isn't about the Corruption system at all, one can assume that Harry has no intention of using it. It's a different style of question.
Maybe I should pivot it in the direction I proposed to @beaushinkle?
If you are Harry's Guild Leader and Harry is a quarter-map away from your Guild's usual hangouts because he likes it there, how many people will you 'spare' to protect Harry? How likely are you to devote an entire Guild War to Harry's cause? What happens if there are two 'Harry's' with the same problem in opposite directions?
What should Harry do if Harry's guild leader says 'nah sorry Harry we can't be devoting people's time to protecting your one chill spot, I'm sure they will just get bored and stop doing it in a few days'?
If cost_move is low (because there are plenty of fun chill-spots), you just leave. If prob_goaway is really high (because your opponents aren't stubborn), you just wreck them a few more times and alpha up. If cost_pvp is low (because you enjoy the PVP maybe), same thing. If the opposites are true, you make the opposite decisions. If it's somewhere in the middle, you start to get indifferent.
Say there's a cost_rally_guild, a prob_goaway, and a cost_move. If cost_rally_guild is low (because your guildmates would relish the idea of leaving their boring grinds to help Harry out and this is sick content), then this is a great option. If this puts Harry into major social debt, then this isn't a great option. If this isn't likely to get them to go away in the first place, or this is going to just cause an escalation, then this isn't a great option (e.g. prob_goaway is low). If cost_move is low (because there are plenty of fun chill-spots and this spot is only slightly better then the next-best place), then just move.
Repeat the analysis for all of the options and pick the lowest-costed option. Is this sort of way to resolve this topic boring and soulless? Yeah. It's really effective though.
Everyone will make that calculation their own way, and I'm not suggesting there is a specific answer at all. What I'm mostly interested in is 'what percentages of Ashes players have which weightings for which variables you listed', assuming that responders generally can follow the logical progressions in the first place.
Analytics is doing good so far.
First of all, when it would be happening, i would assume that my guildmembers would rush to aid Harry. In the aftermath, i would ask him why he was there, And get some information about his attackers. If its a known area for "NBSI" Not blue Shoot it (eve term for if its not allied you kill it) i would inform harry that, and tell him that that is expected in that region. Furthermore if it indeed was harrasment, corpse camping etc, i would contact the other persons guild or node representatives, and demand restitution. If thats not given, then we would gladly go to war (But as mentioned i'm a eve online pvp person, so any excuse for wars and incursions would be welcomed.
IIf there are two Harriy's that have the same problem, i would do the same for the second one, give a guild notice for people to either remain in the guilds sphere of influence if your just chilling, or be prepared for a fight. If the offenders did serious harrasement to multiple guildies, i would allocate groups to take revenge in that area simultaneously, or if thats not an option, work out a timeschedule (wich includes the harry's) to take revenge.
What should harry do if the guild leader says "nah sorry?" Decide for himself if he wants to go to war over this. If the awnser is yes, search for a group that that is at war with them (this could be either becomming a citizen of a hostile node, or switch guilds that are at war with them. (don't know if you can freely attack members of a different faith) Thats the beauty of the Ashes system, if you want to fight a certain entity, you have multiple ways of obtaining like minded individuals.
As a last advice, i would also tell Harry to contact a GM. Deliberatly targeting a single player to the point of harrasement, that falls out of the scope of reasonable game mechanics, should be reported. Seeking revenge is fine, Harrasment is not.
You are probably familiar from fgc community stuff. Some games, the expectation is "average player should ask for help", others it is "average player should grind more alone".
So @maouw and @Kesthely both gave answers that cover what I was asking and also their own likely reaction.
I figured that the 'guild leader' framing might help since it tells me 'what people expect of their average guild member', and that could be a way to get the data or perhaps even additional data.
If you don't mind me slightly altering "b", since it doesn't have to be the "whole" guild, then I think that's what I would love to see. Harry is getting 1v3'd, so you don't need to bring your whole 40-man guild to the 40v3, you just need to find a few folks in the area to make it a 3-5v3.
Hopefully, I'm in the sort of guild where there are friends who would see that as a benefit (they like doing that sort of thing more than whatever they do normally - I'm one of those people, for instance), rather than a cost.
Also, @Odal - there is no such thing as a PvE or PvP server in Ashes.
Sounds like he can chill wherever and gets free fights. I guess you don't consider that chilling because that isn't the intent of this thread.
If he doesn't want to fight, why doesn't he chill somewhere with guards or on his freehold? In WoW, do you expect to be able to chill in a battleground?
What should i do if i want to chill under a boss but it keeps aggroing to me?
Hm... what exactly are you doing under the boss? This seems like Harry is going NSFW quickly.
I just really like the spot.