If the game has proximity chat, many players (likely most, tbh) will turn it off. This means these opportunities like in the OP will be rare.
VOIP would enable sending messages without the use of hands --> no need to leave yourself defenseless for that duration.
VOIP would enable receiving messages without the use of eyes --> better control of character cuz we dnt need to read the message.
VOIP makes communicating far more convenient than the default solution of typing everything and managing different chat windows for different chats like guild chat, node chat, world chat along with talking to friends.
So I believe other than extremely casual/new players, most people would have it on. After all, convenience always wins. Moreover it shouldn't be very hard to implement.
In an MMO, the people that are not casual don't care what some random passer by has to say.
Most people that are actually in to MMO's will log in to their guilds voice chat at the same time they log in to the game, and will not use voice chat at all.
In fact, in my experience, most (not all, but most) people that are in to MMO's turn all sounds off from the game completely.
So, your assertion thatnit is only casuals that will turn it off is blatantly incorrect. Casuals are the most likely people to use it, as they are the least likely to have existing guild chat.
Within my friend groups everyone that plays stuff like rust or new world all use guild voice chat, true, but they also leave in game voice chat on. Basically have a press to talk for your discord to mute your mic on discord whenever you speak in the game. It's the best of both worlds.
In a game like Rust, sure.
In a game like Archeage - not as likely.
Keep in mind, after a few months, you'll know most of the people in the area/time you frequent.
Well yes, and wouldn't that make things just plain easier then if you could talk to each other using VOIP rather than typing? If the community is as close as they want it to be it would be better than your random "shoot first screech racial slurs when you die" sort of game. Those types of players will be quickly filtered out of the game with proper moderation and at the end of the day you are left with a community that can freely talk to each other as they see fit. be it voip or messaging.
If I can disable proximity chat without bleed then I don't care either way. I don't want my leisure time, music and zen to be disturbed by random encounters of the human kind.
removing it from my point of view is removing an option that could be used correctly (as incorrectly, I do not deny it) and generate a more sociable environment.
I am unsure if you are aware of what is being planned.
No one is asking for VoIP to be removed from the game. It will exist, it will be used for guilds, groups and raids.
The discussion is about proximity based VoIP, where you are able to speak to someone just by getting close to them.
Not having proximity based VoIP removes basically all of the negatives associated with it, and leaving it in for groups, guilds and raids leaves in tact most (not quite all, but most) of the positives.
In the scenario you gave, if the people in question joined a group, or the groups present formed a raid, they would have voice chat, could do their thing and then all carry on about their day.
removing it from my point of view is removing an option that could be used correctly (as incorrectly, I do not deny it) and generate a more sociable environment.
I am unsure if you are aware of what is being planned.
In the scenario you gave, if the people in question joined a group, or the groups present formed a raid, they would have voice chat, could do their thing and then all carry on about their day.
Oh, I missed that part, you are right I supposed it wanted to be removed, thanks for the clarification .
The way you propose it seems fair to me, having the experience of Rust´s VoIP proxy, I must say that it is usually more toxic than sociable and if you want to create an environment more "prone to creating more positive sociability and less toxicity" then VoIP as you propose it seems fair to me.
Taking into account that it is 99% sure that a lot of drama will be generated in AoC, I think that a VoIP prox would not be convenient to generate a good environment.
typing in chat is slow and I don't think I'd be willing to take my hands away from my controls to tell someone I'm friendly, at that's point I'd be more inclined to strike them before they strike me
typing in chat is slow and I don't think I'd be willing to take my hands away from my controls to tell someone I'm friendly, at that's point I'd be more inclined to strike them before they strike me
First time playing open world pvp mmorpg?
It's one thing to request a feature. It's another to try to demonstrate that it is vital to the game.
Personally I think it's a waste of resources and I would rather they focus in combat, classes, weapons and meaningful quests.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
typing in chat is slow and I don't think I'd be willing to take my hands away from my controls to tell someone I'm friendly, at that's point I'd be more inclined to strike them before they strike me
First time playing open world pvp mmorpg?
It's one thing to request a feature. It's another to try to demonstrate that it is vital to the game.
Personally I think it's a waste of resources and I would rather they focus in combat, classes, weapons and meaningful quests.
I don't think what he said is any exaggeration though. Yes, we are used to it but that doesn't mean it's good. As he pointed out, you have to relinquish control of your character to communicate which is a bad user experience.
I don't think it would take a lot of time from the designers who are the ones building out everything you mentioned. Most of the work would be on the devs.
Videos of people playing Rust and having "fun" with the VOIP convinced me to never play Rust.
*edit: proximity VOIP
Rust had a lot of teen whiners. I'm being generous calling them teens, most sounded like ten year olds screaming every time the base was raided or they were killed. Really ear piercing screams when I wore my headphones. Hated every second. Really sapped the fun out of base raiding and PvP.
Moderating Voip is worlds harder than moderating text. VOIP will add moderation costs and be harder to moderate by nature of the medium. That's my number one problem with it.
My number two problem with it is simple. Voip creates a type of multitasking that on average lowers critical thinking and allows for more split second comments to occur. This is in my opinion the real root of distanced based VOIP's toxicity. The fact that you have to stop doing things and actually focus on the act of communication via keyboard otoh is just as much of a benefit in mitigating this as it is an obstacle to some people. You have slightly more opportunity to read what you are about to say, and possibly cool off typing it.
Just think about people on this forum. Would it be a less interesting place if everyone here said the first thing on the top of their head? Given certain things that get edited and filtered here by several users myself included, I can say without a doubt resoundingly yes. Conversations and communities are healthier when there is some input lag on saying dumb shit on the internet.
Thankfully with modern tech hands free communication isn't impossible! You thankfully have the option to voluntarily get on discord or use the in game voip IS will be making. Such voluntary path ways allow intrepid to leave the moderation to other platforms lowering costs, and keep the in game experience of voip to groups aimed at temporary constructive alliance, changing the psychological framing of the situation towards one less prone to toxic unsocial outbursts and allow a more focused moderation approach with clearer strict guidelines allowing better enforcement.
Good point, I never thought about moderation difficulties...
I disagree on your other point though. People who don't filter their words much are way more fun in my (limited) experience. I like to see passion set ablaze rather than see it pre-processed (honestly, a healthy balance of the two). But I can certainly appreciate the point about cooling off.
As someone who hasn't really played many games with proximity voice chat, I find the concept interesting but intimidating - will probably take me some time to warm up to it - though it looks really natural in other cooperative games I've seen.
What I've witnessed in highlight videos of Rust on the other hand...
I wish I were deep and tragic
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Moderating Voip is worlds harder than moderating text. VOIP will add moderation costs and be harder to moderate by nature of the medium. That's my number one problem with it.
My number two problem with it is simple. Voip creates a type of multitasking that on average lowers critical thinking and allows for more split second comments to occur. This is in my opinion the real root of distanced based VOIP's toxicity. The fact that you have to stop doing things and actually focus on the act of communication via keyboard otoh is just as much of a benefit in mitigating this as it is an obstacle to some people. You have slightly more opportunity to read what you are about to say, and possibly cool off typing it.
Just think about people on this forum. Would it be a less interesting place if everyone here said the first thing on the top of their head? Given certain things that get edited and filtered here by several users myself included, I can say without a doubt resoundingly yes. Conversations and communities are healthier when there is some input lag on saying dumb shit on the internet.
Thankfully with modern tech hands free communication isn't impossible! You thankfully have the option to voluntarily get on discord or use the in game voip IS will be making. Such voluntary path ways allow intrepid to leave the moderation to other platforms lowering costs, and keep the in game experience of voip to groups aimed at temporary constructive alliance, changing the psychological framing of the situation towards one less prone to toxic unsocial outbursts and allow a more focused moderation approach with clearer strict guidelines allowing better enforcement.
If they are going to implement voip in game for groups then any extra steps they need to take for moderation will already need to be in place.
People can feel empathy from a voice which can curve behavior. To my knowledge, people are more toxic when typing towards each other than when speaking due to the lack of empathy.
Most people are capable of not saying the first thing that comes to mind. Yes, some may have outbursts from time to time but that doesn't mean talking wouldn't lead to more constructive conversations. If you want, i would be willing to debate this topic on the ashes discord to see how it goes?
Proximity chat would also be an option, similar to what you mentioned. I don't see the possibility of some people blurting something out in a moment of passion as a reason to exclude a feature. The reason people choose to use third parties to communicate in game is proof of the convenience.
While I'm for proximity VoIP, kind of, I think it would be better served for proximity VOIP to be an area-based toggle. An example of this is if someone is running their own tavern and they want their tavern to have a proximity VoIP while on their property I think they should be allowed to enable that. Then when someone enters that land they get a notification and can choose whether or not they wish to be a part of that. Otherwise, they can be that silent dude/chick who sits in the corner and drinks their ale alone. Then this would put the moderation of the proximity VoIP on the owner of the land instead of Intrepid. Obviously, it would need to be tested, but I think with some adjustments it could work rather well.
As for proximity VoIP in the open world, hard no. While I love the concept, no one can prove to me that someone somewhere won't abuse it and that it won't ruin my experience of the game, because it will. I already had that issue in New World. Idiots running around playing music through their microphones. Saying racist crap and just, in general, being nasty. Unfortunately, the pros still do not outweigh the cons for a proximity VoIP.
Even on RP servers for GTA or RDR2 players are encouraged to record their gameplay in an effort to report players using the proximity VoIP unacceptably. For a large MMO, the recording would have to be done by the company developing the MMO and that takes a LOT of storage space. That responsibility can't be pushed down to the players.
I can't help but wonder if there will ever be a game that will allow Voice to Text as part of its chat system. It would lower the costs of moderation of proximity VoIP most likely because everything will still be logged. Voice commands in general would be nice for doing things during your gameplay like accessing certain interfaces that wouldn't make sense for them to be accessed by your character. i.e. status page, talent windows, help windows.
Just in general I think Voice to Text would be an amazing feature, though it would probably be difficult to implement, especially with the different accents of various people.
If they are going to implement voip in game for groups then any extra steps they need to take for moderation will already need to be in place.
I could be wrong, but I don't believe that's true. If VoIP is solely for groups, guilds, and raids then I believe that they will put in ToS that moderation of VoIP is left to the players involved. The problem is when ANYONE can enter the voice "lobby" and the players can't do anything about it. Sure, you may be able to kill the character but then you could be corrupted. If it's a guild, group, or raid then the player can be kicked, blacklisted, or even just muted by guild leaders.
If they are going to implement voip in game for groups then any extra steps they need to take for moderation will already need to be in place.
Not really. The scope is different. The situational framing is different. The expectations are different. The mechanics are a bit different.
Screaming nonsensically in raid chat is more reasonably bannable from the chat. No such gradation exists for prox in punishment for disruptive behavior. Scrolling through a specific instance of a raid or party chat to find someone using racial slurs is more easily sorted through than a general channel that must be open at all times. Even more easily found in text.There are methods for building this more sensibly for monitoring but they cost more money and are separate methodologies and implementations than instanced group chats.
People can feel empathy from a voice which can curve behavior. To my knowledge, people are more toxic when typing towards each other than when speaking due to the lack of empathy.
Only if it sounds attractive or familiar is that true. As a woman I cannot tell you how many times I or other gamer women I know that have faced harassment or belittlement just for being a woman or sounding unattractive to the listener on voip.
Empathy isn't a voice only activity. Toxicity in forums happens because 1. Not everyone is practiced in empathy 2. People are fighting for their agenda and get emotional. Toxicity would happen in voice among a larger average sample size if put in a situation they percieve is confrontational rather than constructive. Just look at in person political debates for reference. Rarely goes well unless the people involved are practiced in empathy or proper debate.
And again in a constructive setting like a raid or party, the terms of social expectations are different. Voice chat makes slightly more sense in this case. And for those cases voice chat is easily available in a number of ways. Adding proximity chat will have negligible cooperative interactions in gameplay compared to the cost of moderation. Especially when you add in people's likelihood to just turn it off as default.
Most people are capable of not saying the first thing that comes to mind. Yes, some may have outbursts from time to time but that doesn't mean talking wouldn't lead to more constructive conversations. If you want, i would be willing to debate this topic on the ashes discord to see how it goes?
Proximity chat is for unfiltered moment to moment emotional interactions. Constructive conversations happen as a result of cultural expectations of conduct and personal willingness to debate. Constructive debate is better inperson very slightly. But that isn't what proximity chat is for now is it. Get into voip or discord or, gasp, type if you want long constructive rp or team strategies. When you are playing pretend online you have far less incentive to behave. The general public time and time again shows that the lowest common denominator ruins experiences and immersion. At least when you are typing shit talk I am free to get the first hit.
Proximity chat would also be an option, similar to what you mentioned. I don't see the possibility of some people blurting something out in a moment of passion as a reason to exclude a feature. The reason people choose to use third parties to communicate in game is proof of the convenience.
Third party convenience is exactly why Intrepid shouldn't spend money on something that already is widely available and costs more money to moderate the larger you increase the scope of the tool. Proximity chat should be excluded because it serves only small benefits for a few types of players and greater exploitation by toxic and selfish people all while costing IS more money and overhead.
If they are going to implement voip in game for groups then any extra steps they need to take for moderation will already need to be in place.
I could be wrong, but I don't believe that's true. If VoIP is solely for groups, guilds, and raids then I believe that they will put in ToS that moderation of VoIP is left to the players involved. The problem is when ANYONE can enter the voice "lobby" and the players can't do anything about it. Sure, you may be able to kill the character but then you could be corrupted. If it's a guild, group, or raid then the player can be kicked, blacklisted, or even just muted by guild leaders.
Proximity voice is also something you can have people opt into as you can choose to mute it. They can also provide allow and/or mute list functions for it.
If they are going to implement voip in game for groups then any extra steps they need to take for moderation will already need to be in place.
Not really. The scope is different. The situational framing is different. The expectations are different. The mechanics are a bit different.
Screaming nonsensically in raid chat is more reasonably bannable from the chat. No such gradation exists for prox in punishment for disruptive behavior. Scrolling through a specific instance of a raid or party chat to find someone using racial slurs is more easily sorted through than a general channel that must be open at all times. Even more easily found in text.There are methods for building this more sensibly for monitoring but they cost more money and are separate methodologies and implementations than instanced group chats.
People can feel empathy from a voice which can curve behavior. To my knowledge, people are more toxic when typing towards each other than when speaking due to the lack of empathy.
Only if it sounds attractive or familiar is that true. As a woman I cannot tell you how many times I or other gamer women I know that have faced harassment or belittlement just for being a woman or sounding unattractive to the listener on voip.
Empathy isn't a voice only activity. Toxicity in forums happens because 1. Not everyone is practiced in empathy 2. People are fighting for their agenda and get emotional. Toxicity would happen in voice among a larger average sample size if put in a situation they percieve is confrontational rather than constructive. Just look at in person political debates for reference. Rarely goes well unless the people involved are practiced in empathy or proper debate.
And again in a constructive setting like a raid or party, the terms of social expectations are different. Voice chat makes slightly more sense in this case. And for those cases voice chat is easily available in a number of ways. Adding proximity chat will have negligible cooperative interactions in gameplay compared to the cost of moderation. Especially when you add in people's likelihood to just turn it off as default.
Most people are capable of not saying the first thing that comes to mind. Yes, some may have outbursts from time to time but that doesn't mean talking wouldn't lead to more constructive conversations. If you want, i would be willing to debate this topic on the ashes discord to see how it goes?
Proximity chat is for unfiltered moment to moment emotional interactions. Constructive conversations happen as a result of cultural expectations of conduct and personal willingness to debate. Constructive debate is better inperson very slightly. But that isn't what proximity chat is for now is it. Get into voip or discord or, gasp, type if you want long constructive rp or team strategies. When you are playing pretend online you have far less incentive to behave. The general public time and time again shows that the lowest common denominator ruins experiences and immersion. At least when you are typing shit talk I am free to get the first hit.
Proximity chat would also be an option, similar to what you mentioned. I don't see the possibility of some people blurting something out in a moment of passion as a reason to exclude a feature. The reason people choose to use third parties to communicate in game is proof of the convenience.
Third party convenience is exactly why Intrepid shouldn't spend money on something that already is widely available and costs more money to moderate the larger you increase the scope of the tool. Proximity chat should be excluded because it serves only small benefits for a few types of players and greater exploitation by toxic and selfish people all while costing IS more money and overhead.
If you don't want to hear proximity voip, you can mute it.
I'm not well informed on attractions effect on empathy know it's not necessary. I'm referring to it in the more scientific sense where we can sense another's feelings/emotions through things like body language and voice. Just because every vocal exchange isn't positive, doesn't mean it doesn't help.
You say you believe people would be more toxic in voice if the perceived a situation to be confrontational instead of constructive but I'd say that situation would happen less in voice.
As i said, just because people feel more empathy from a voice doesn't mean they will always be happy, positive conversations but on average, I think they will be.
I think the fact that voice chat is preferred in those cases are proof of it's convenience and why it should be made as available as possible, which i think should include the open world. i don't think either of us are in the position to do the cost-benefit analysis for it.
Yes, unfiltered interactions can occur and for some, is part of the enjoyment, but it is also an easy way to start a conversation with someone in the world without having to take the extra steps to join a voice channel.
They already plan on having voice chat for parties and raids. I'm not going to make claims of cost or LOE, it's just something I'm enjoying and would like to see in the game. Since you can mute it, i also don't see it as a big deal for people who don't want to use it.
I agree with many of the previous posters proximity only voip makes a game much more fun at times as long as there is a way to mute people/groups when needed, some sort of filter to prevent excessive volume, optional push to talk.
As a MO2 player, I can say for sure that the emergent gameplay can and does happen without VoIP.
It happened in Darkfall, It happened in Ultima Online, It happened in Lineage 2, and it happens in Eve online all the time. Dialog can and does end wars and create emergent opportunity. Since risk vs reward are an ever present factor for all to consider in these games, people are more open to dialog.
What is also important to note is that none of the games I mentioned above have VoIP integrated into them as a baseline. It is simply not needed. If people want to talk, they can and will open a dialog via text.
Personally, I hate the VoIP in MO2. I think it is far more of a vessel for people to goof around with than a constructive tool that adds to the game. More often than not, we end up using discord over in game VoIP anyway because of distance limitations and ease of use. VoIP ends up being a problem because anyone who has it enable has to juggle two push to talks or sound obnoxious like they have a different phone in each hand trying to have two conversations.
Discord is not going anywhere and if it did, it would quickly get replaced by something else. People would go back to Team Speak, Mumble, or even Skype before they would use in game VoIP for a serious MMORPG.
Every encounter does not have to end in PvP, but that point does not mean we need in game VoIP.
I'm in for VOIP. It should be easy to set up to turn on/off on the fly. This will allow me to gauge someone's intentions. Sometimes just being funny or offering something in return might avoid confrontation.
Texting is takes time, you can't move.
Eventually if you like them you can always invite them to another VOIP out of game.
As a MO2 player, I can say for sure that the emergent gameplay can and does happen without VoIP.
It happened in Darkfall, It happened in Ultima Online, It happened in Lineage 2, and it happens in Eve online all the time. Dialog can and does end wars and create emergent opportunity. Since risk vs reward are an ever present factor for all to consider in these games, people are more open to dialog.
What is also important to note is that none of the games I mentioned above have VoIP integrated into them as a baseline. It is simply not needed. If people want to talk, they can and will open a dialog via text.
Personally, I hate the VoIP in MO2. I think it is far more of a vessel for people to goof around with than a constructive tool that adds to the game. More often than not, we end up using discord over in game VoIP anyway because of distance limitations and ease of use. VoIP ends up being a problem because anyone who has it enable has to juggle two push to talks or sound obnoxious like they have a different phone in each hand trying to have two conversations.
Discord is not going anywhere and if it did, it would quickly get replaced by something else. People would go back to Team Speak, Mumble, or even Skype before they would use in game VoIP for a serious MMORPG.
Every encounter does not have to end in PvP, but that point does not mean we need in game VoIP.
As always, I am against in game VoIP for Ashes.
I play a large amount of EVE online and think that is a bad example to support your opinion.
Eve can be a much slower game at times and there are many ways to keep players from leaving while also not being a threat to you and that makes many more choices with little risk.
In my opinion only vicinity VOIP would be in game as that would allow immediate communication much easier as well as allow some play if you just want to team up for a very short time , if more is needed then i agree that out of game programs should be the solution.
Setting multiple push to talk keys is not hard and something I am used to as I regularly use mumble, discord, and teamspeak at the same time.
I have not played the other games you mentioned much so I cannot comment on them.
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ButtercupCloverMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think the thing this thread seems to forget about is the corruption system. It's supposed to dissuade people from randomly attacking others on a whim. There will be those people that will do their best to just troll in pvp but they will get punished for it eventually. In stuff like eve or mortal online or the other games mentioned, there's no reason not to attack someone if you're bored. It's also good to mention that Ashes is not meant to be a solo experience. If you're running around solo doing a quest then there isn't much to lose and if you're gathering/caravan running you should be moving with other people nearby.
Text chat should be enough for people to defuse a situation and if there isn't enough time to type something out then the attacker most likely went into the situation wanting a fight. This is a player driven world so attacking people may cause you more trouble down the line than you expected. Merchants may deny working with you if you've caused them trouble in the past and communities of players may target you in the future after you rob them.
Personally I would also like to avoid having voip because of mic spammers. I think we can all agree that some gamers are just immature and will use it to annoy people. There's no way for them to keep a log of stuff like that but it is possible for them to monitor text chat and deal with people spamming there. It would make trying to moderate gold sellers and chat spammers impossible if they had access to an in game voice chat that they could advertise with.
I think the thing this thread seems to forget about is the corruption system. It's supposed to dissuade people from randomly attacking others on a whim. There will be those people that will do their best to just troll in pvp but they will get punished for it eventually. In stuff like eve or mortal online or the other games mentioned, there's no reason not to attack someone if you're bored. It's also good to mention that Ashes is not meant to be a solo experience. If you're running around solo doing a quest then there isn't much to lose and if you're gathering/caravan running you should be moving with other people nearby.
Text chat should be enough for people to defuse a situation and if there isn't enough time to type something out then the attacker most likely went into the situation wanting a fight. This is a player driven world so attacking people may cause you more trouble down the line than you expected. Merchants may deny working with you if you've caused them trouble in the past and communities of players may target you in the future after you rob them.
Personally I would also like to avoid having voip because of mic spammers. I think we can all agree that some gamers are just immature and will use it to annoy people. There's no way for them to keep a log of stuff like that but it is possible for them to monitor text chat and deal with people spamming there. It would make trying to moderate gold sellers and chat spammers impossible if they had access to an in game voice chat that they could advertise with.
I am aware of there being a corruption system planned, just not sure if that should be relied on.
Eve has many reasons to not attack someone: concord, player alliances, being shot first in future engagements, loss of your structures/space, mistrust in future deals etc; because of my actions in eve some of my enemies shoot me first in fleet engagements, some people sell me goods cheaper, and some pirates do not shoot me at all.
I assume that people go into most situations thinking they want a fight, it is my job to convince them that was a poor idea.
I agree that mic spam can be an issue. that is why muting individuals and groups should be a thing. As long as people report the spammers and do not tell them you reported then the mods would have a chance to catch them, also spamming using voice in vicinity would not be a very good way to advertise as it would not reach many people.
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ButtercupCloverMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited November 2021
But again, text chat should be enough to talk down the people who can be talked down.
As long as people report the spammers and do not tell them you reported then the mods would have a chance to catch them, also spamming using voice in vicinity would not be a very good way to advertise as it would not reach many people.
There's a fine line between the mods "having a chance" to the mods "having a log" of chat abuse. Gold spammers are desperate people and with moderated chats, they will resort to voice chat spamming even if it's not efficient because it's not easy to track down. PSO2 had a problem with this in a different way. There were these stickers, custom images that could be sent through chat but would only be shown to people in the area. They sat in town and spammed stickers with their text and weren't banned for weeks because the only thing the devs saw on their end was that a sticker was sent. They eventually removed the ability to send stickers to people not in your party because of this issue.
No worries, I agree that EVE may not be the best game for my examples. I mainly included it because it is an open world sandbox where VoIP is not needed for emergent game play to happen. It has been a while since I was grinding ISK myself, but I can't remember VoIP being built into EVE.
EVE is its own different beast of a game, nothing really is like it that I have seen. I would say the same about Darkfall. Just two unique MMORPGs.
The main thing I have experienced. Not just in MMORPGs like Mortal Online 2, but other games with vicinity voice chat like Ark or Atlas. The issue being that people will have discord and the game with multiple push to talk keys for a while. Then they just mute the game because Discord takes priority and the world chat will eventually have something going on that makes you want to mute it...
In my opinion, proximity voice chat is all a novelty at best. It is also something that requires developers time, energy, and money to develop, maintain, and police. I think good emergent gameplay can happen with just in game chat and whispers. They are also much easier to moderate.
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Well yes, and wouldn't that make things just plain easier then if you could talk to each other using VOIP rather than typing? If the community is as close as they want it to be it would be better than your random "shoot first screech racial slurs when you die" sort of game. Those types of players will be quickly filtered out of the game with proper moderation and at the end of the day you are left with a community that can freely talk to each other as they see fit. be it voip or messaging.
I am unsure if you are aware of what is being planned.
No one is asking for VoIP to be removed from the game. It will exist, it will be used for guilds, groups and raids.
The discussion is about proximity based VoIP, where you are able to speak to someone just by getting close to them.
Not having proximity based VoIP removes basically all of the negatives associated with it, and leaving it in for groups, guilds and raids leaves in tact most (not quite all, but most) of the positives.
In the scenario you gave, if the people in question joined a group, or the groups present formed a raid, they would have voice chat, could do their thing and then all carry on about their day.
Oh, I missed that part, you are right I supposed it wanted to be removed, thanks for the clarification .
The way you propose it seems fair to me, having the experience of Rust´s VoIP proxy, I must say that it is usually more toxic than sociable and if you want to create an environment more "prone to creating more positive sociability and less toxicity" then VoIP as you propose it seems fair to me.
Taking into account that it is 99% sure that a lot of drama will be generated in AoC, I think that a VoIP prox would not be convenient to generate a good environment.
typing in chat is slow and I don't think I'd be willing to take my hands away from my controls to tell someone I'm friendly, at that's point I'd be more inclined to strike them before they strike me
First time playing open world pvp mmorpg?
It's one thing to request a feature. It's another to try to demonstrate that it is vital to the game.
Personally I think it's a waste of resources and I would rather they focus in combat, classes, weapons and meaningful quests.
I don't think what he said is any exaggeration though. Yes, we are used to it but that doesn't mean it's good. As he pointed out, you have to relinquish control of your character to communicate which is a bad user experience.
I don't think it would take a lot of time from the designers who are the ones building out everything you mentioned. Most of the work would be on the devs.
*edit: proximity VOIP
Rust had a lot of teen whiners. I'm being generous calling them teens, most sounded like ten year olds screaming every time the base was raided or they were killed. Really ear piercing screams when I wore my headphones. Hated every second. Really sapped the fun out of base raiding and PvP.
My number two problem with it is simple. Voip creates a type of multitasking that on average lowers critical thinking and allows for more split second comments to occur. This is in my opinion the real root of distanced based VOIP's toxicity. The fact that you have to stop doing things and actually focus on the act of communication via keyboard otoh is just as much of a benefit in mitigating this as it is an obstacle to some people. You have slightly more opportunity to read what you are about to say, and possibly cool off typing it.
Just think about people on this forum. Would it be a less interesting place if everyone here said the first thing on the top of their head? Given certain things that get edited and filtered here by several users myself included, I can say without a doubt resoundingly yes. Conversations and communities are healthier when there is some input lag on saying dumb shit on the internet.
Thankfully with modern tech hands free communication isn't impossible! You thankfully have the option to voluntarily get on discord or use the in game voip IS will be making. Such voluntary path ways allow intrepid to leave the moderation to other platforms lowering costs, and keep the in game experience of voip to groups aimed at temporary constructive alliance, changing the psychological framing of the situation towards one less prone to toxic unsocial outbursts and allow a more focused moderation approach with clearer strict guidelines allowing better enforcement.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
I disagree on your other point though. People who don't filter their words much are way more fun in my (limited) experience. I like to see passion set ablaze rather than see it pre-processed (honestly, a healthy balance of the two). But I can certainly appreciate the point about cooling off.
As someone who hasn't really played many games with proximity voice chat, I find the concept interesting but intimidating - will probably take me some time to warm up to it - though it looks really natural in other cooperative games I've seen.
What I've witnessed in highlight videos of Rust on the other hand...
If they are going to implement voip in game for groups then any extra steps they need to take for moderation will already need to be in place.
People can feel empathy from a voice which can curve behavior. To my knowledge, people are more toxic when typing towards each other than when speaking due to the lack of empathy.
Most people are capable of not saying the first thing that comes to mind. Yes, some may have outbursts from time to time but that doesn't mean talking wouldn't lead to more constructive conversations. If you want, i would be willing to debate this topic on the ashes discord to see how it goes?
Proximity chat would also be an option, similar to what you mentioned. I don't see the possibility of some people blurting something out in a moment of passion as a reason to exclude a feature. The reason people choose to use third parties to communicate in game is proof of the convenience.
As for proximity VoIP in the open world, hard no. While I love the concept, no one can prove to me that someone somewhere won't abuse it and that it won't ruin my experience of the game, because it will. I already had that issue in New World. Idiots running around playing music through their microphones. Saying racist crap and just, in general, being nasty. Unfortunately, the pros still do not outweigh the cons for a proximity VoIP.
Even on RP servers for GTA or RDR2 players are encouraged to record their gameplay in an effort to report players using the proximity VoIP unacceptably. For a large MMO, the recording would have to be done by the company developing the MMO and that takes a LOT of storage space. That responsibility can't be pushed down to the players.
I can't help but wonder if there will ever be a game that will allow Voice to Text as part of its chat system. It would lower the costs of moderation of proximity VoIP most likely because everything will still be logged. Voice commands in general would be nice for doing things during your gameplay like accessing certain interfaces that wouldn't make sense for them to be accessed by your character. i.e. status page, talent windows, help windows.
Just in general I think Voice to Text would be an amazing feature, though it would probably be difficult to implement, especially with the different accents of various people.
I could be wrong, but I don't believe that's true. If VoIP is solely for groups, guilds, and raids then I believe that they will put in ToS that moderation of VoIP is left to the players involved. The problem is when ANYONE can enter the voice "lobby" and the players can't do anything about it. Sure, you may be able to kill the character but then you could be corrupted. If it's a guild, group, or raid then the player can be kicked, blacklisted, or even just muted by guild leaders.
Not really. The scope is different. The situational framing is different. The expectations are different. The mechanics are a bit different.
Screaming nonsensically in raid chat is more reasonably bannable from the chat. No such gradation exists for prox in punishment for disruptive behavior. Scrolling through a specific instance of a raid or party chat to find someone using racial slurs is more easily sorted through than a general channel that must be open at all times. Even more easily found in text.There are methods for building this more sensibly for monitoring but they cost more money and are separate methodologies and implementations than instanced group chats.
Only if it sounds attractive or familiar is that true. As a woman I cannot tell you how many times I or other gamer women I know that have faced harassment or belittlement just for being a woman or sounding unattractive to the listener on voip.
Empathy isn't a voice only activity. Toxicity in forums happens because 1. Not everyone is practiced in empathy 2. People are fighting for their agenda and get emotional. Toxicity would happen in voice among a larger average sample size if put in a situation they percieve is confrontational rather than constructive. Just look at in person political debates for reference. Rarely goes well unless the people involved are practiced in empathy or proper debate.
And again in a constructive setting like a raid or party, the terms of social expectations are different. Voice chat makes slightly more sense in this case. And for those cases voice chat is easily available in a number of ways. Adding proximity chat will have negligible cooperative interactions in gameplay compared to the cost of moderation. Especially when you add in people's likelihood to just turn it off as default.
Proximity chat is for unfiltered moment to moment emotional interactions. Constructive conversations happen as a result of cultural expectations of conduct and personal willingness to debate. Constructive debate is better inperson very slightly. But that isn't what proximity chat is for now is it. Get into voip or discord or, gasp, type if you want long constructive rp or team strategies. When you are playing pretend online you have far less incentive to behave. The general public time and time again shows that the lowest common denominator ruins experiences and immersion. At least when you are typing shit talk I am free to get the first hit.
Third party convenience is exactly why Intrepid shouldn't spend money on something that already is widely available and costs more money to moderate the larger you increase the scope of the tool. Proximity chat should be excluded because it serves only small benefits for a few types of players and greater exploitation by toxic and selfish people all while costing IS more money and overhead.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
Proximity voice is also something you can have people opt into as you can choose to mute it. They can also provide allow and/or mute list functions for it.
If you don't want to hear proximity voip, you can mute it.
I'm not well informed on attractions effect on empathy know it's not necessary. I'm referring to it in the more scientific sense where we can sense another's feelings/emotions through things like body language and voice. Just because every vocal exchange isn't positive, doesn't mean it doesn't help.
You say you believe people would be more toxic in voice if the perceived a situation to be confrontational instead of constructive but I'd say that situation would happen less in voice.
As i said, just because people feel more empathy from a voice doesn't mean they will always be happy, positive conversations but on average, I think they will be.
I think the fact that voice chat is preferred in those cases are proof of it's convenience and why it should be made as available as possible, which i think should include the open world. i don't think either of us are in the position to do the cost-benefit analysis for it.
Yes, unfiltered interactions can occur and for some, is part of the enjoyment, but it is also an easy way to start a conversation with someone in the world without having to take the extra steps to join a voice channel.
They already plan on having voice chat for parties and raids. I'm not going to make claims of cost or LOE, it's just something I'm enjoying and would like to see in the game. Since you can mute it, i also don't see it as a big deal for people who don't want to use it.
But no really - I think it would be cool to have something like New World's proximity mic for the pure chaos of it haha
It happened in Darkfall, It happened in Ultima Online, It happened in Lineage 2, and it happens in Eve online all the time. Dialog can and does end wars and create emergent opportunity. Since risk vs reward are an ever present factor for all to consider in these games, people are more open to dialog.
What is also important to note is that none of the games I mentioned above have VoIP integrated into them as a baseline. It is simply not needed. If people want to talk, they can and will open a dialog via text.
Personally, I hate the VoIP in MO2. I think it is far more of a vessel for people to goof around with than a constructive tool that adds to the game. More often than not, we end up using discord over in game VoIP anyway because of distance limitations and ease of use. VoIP ends up being a problem because anyone who has it enable has to juggle two push to talks or sound obnoxious like they have a different phone in each hand trying to have two conversations.
Discord is not going anywhere and if it did, it would quickly get replaced by something else. People would go back to Team Speak, Mumble, or even Skype before they would use in game VoIP for a serious MMORPG.
Every encounter does not have to end in PvP, but that point does not mean we need in game VoIP.
As always, I am against in game VoIP for Ashes.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Texting is takes time, you can't move.
Eventually if you like them you can always invite them to another VOIP out of game.
I play a large amount of EVE online and think that is a bad example to support your opinion.
Eve can be a much slower game at times and there are many ways to keep players from leaving while also not being a threat to you and that makes many more choices with little risk.
In my opinion only vicinity VOIP would be in game as that would allow immediate communication much easier as well as allow some play if you just want to team up for a very short time , if more is needed then i agree that out of game programs should be the solution.
Setting multiple push to talk keys is not hard and something I am used to as I regularly use mumble, discord, and teamspeak at the same time.
I have not played the other games you mentioned much so I cannot comment on them.
Text chat should be enough for people to defuse a situation and if there isn't enough time to type something out then the attacker most likely went into the situation wanting a fight. This is a player driven world so attacking people may cause you more trouble down the line than you expected. Merchants may deny working with you if you've caused them trouble in the past and communities of players may target you in the future after you rob them.
Personally I would also like to avoid having voip because of mic spammers. I think we can all agree that some gamers are just immature and will use it to annoy people. There's no way for them to keep a log of stuff like that but it is possible for them to monitor text chat and deal with people spamming there. It would make trying to moderate gold sellers and chat spammers impossible if they had access to an in game voice chat that they could advertise with.
I am aware of there being a corruption system planned, just not sure if that should be relied on.
Eve has many reasons to not attack someone: concord, player alliances, being shot first in future engagements, loss of your structures/space, mistrust in future deals etc; because of my actions in eve some of my enemies shoot me first in fleet engagements, some people sell me goods cheaper, and some pirates do not shoot me at all.
I assume that people go into most situations thinking they want a fight, it is my job to convince them that was a poor idea.
I agree that mic spam can be an issue. that is why muting individuals and groups should be a thing. As long as people report the spammers and do not tell them you reported then the mods would have a chance to catch them, also spamming using voice in vicinity would not be a very good way to advertise as it would not reach many people.
There's a fine line between the mods "having a chance" to the mods "having a log" of chat abuse. Gold spammers are desperate people and with moderated chats, they will resort to voice chat spamming even if it's not efficient because it's not easy to track down. PSO2 had a problem with this in a different way. There were these stickers, custom images that could be sent through chat but would only be shown to people in the area. They sat in town and spammed stickers with their text and weren't banned for weeks because the only thing the devs saw on their end was that a sticker was sent. They eventually removed the ability to send stickers to people not in your party because of this issue.
No worries, I agree that EVE may not be the best game for my examples. I mainly included it because it is an open world sandbox where VoIP is not needed for emergent game play to happen. It has been a while since I was grinding ISK myself, but I can't remember VoIP being built into EVE.
EVE is its own different beast of a game, nothing really is like it that I have seen. I would say the same about Darkfall. Just two unique MMORPGs.
The main thing I have experienced. Not just in MMORPGs like Mortal Online 2, but other games with vicinity voice chat like Ark or Atlas. The issue being that people will have discord and the game with multiple push to talk keys for a while. Then they just mute the game because Discord takes priority and the world chat will eventually have something going on that makes you want to mute it...
In my opinion, proximity voice chat is all a novelty at best. It is also something that requires developers time, energy, and money to develop, maintain, and police. I think good emergent gameplay can happen with just in game chat and whispers. They are also much easier to moderate.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.