Anyone racing to reach cap asap will ding regardless of the global xp nerf, because those people will congregate in a single node on the realm to be able to unluck higher level areas more quickly. Those people will most likely complain just a little bit, because they will be too busy grinding out what they need despite the nerf.
Those players will always break ahead of the pack. Whereas everyone else is stuck together in the bottleneck areas for double the time as it would take without the nerf creating frustration. Not only this, but those players will feel like shit, because the time invested during the time the nerf is active makes their time invested worth much less.
Timed XP events are used only if the leveling system by itself is shit and those events only devalue players time invested (with xp nerf the time devalued is during the nerf and with xp buff the time devalued is everything except the period of the buff being active)
However your proposed problem is already being addressed with the design of the node system that automatically slows down the front of the pack without any artificial xp nerf.
Leveling is ok, what they need and most games need is a secondary leveling system to where raching 60 is just the start, then the real grind starts. Like DAoC Realm Ranks which took 2-3 years to acheive
Gear progression is usually how it's done.
Or.... make leveling take longer to reach cap instead of looking for filler content [/What I suggested is not a "Filler" content it is a intended leveling system that a PvP game would make sense being based around. Along with being a tried a tested system that has lasted for years and still going..
It's the same as ESOs CP system. Rushed endgame and lv cap. Once you hit cap all your repetitive activities reward you with post cap exp and points that.... increase your stats (which increase your skills potency).
As opposed to L2, which doesnt have post cap leveling.
Getting to high lvs takes long time and you are recruired to do meaningful activities, instead of facerolling the world and rushing to cap.
Being at high lvs is filled with activities to reach cap lv and max gear while, once again, helping lower lv guildies.
In games with post cap progression it is often a feature to share that prpgression with alts at cap lv from the same acc. Guess what? People rush one alt after another instead of actually playing the game.
My hot take is that levels won't be a large part of the game, it's more about getting your equipment score up which will require nodes to level up which will be a much longer and slower form of vertical progression. That's how it is in Archeage which a lot of AoC is based on, also in alpha testing. So you can think of gearing up as levelling really, same kind of thing. I don't see the point of slowing down the levelling experience, it just means it takes longer to get your skills.
Leveling is ok, what they need and most games need is a secondary leveling system to where raching 60 is just the start, then the real grind starts. Like DAoC Realm Ranks which took 2-3 years to acheive
Gear progression is usually how it's done.
Or.... make leveling take longer to reach cap instead of looking for filler content
Leveling IS filler content.
The point of an MMO is to play together with friends. This happens far more easily when they are all the same level.
The best way for all your friends to be the same lev is for them to be at the level cap.
Saying level cap content is just filler is saying you don't have any friends to run it with.
My friends are as &%&* to start one by one, several months in between one another. I guess that is your experience with your friends, otherwise how else would you justify your bad possition which diminishes "Levels" in an mmorpg.
My friends and I start at the same time, from noobs to max lv. And the longer it takes in a game to reach max lv and gain top gear, the better the game and the content doesnt feel ez within 2 months.
Go play eso if you want everybody to be the same lv. They will even tailor the content to your lv.
My friends are as &%&* to start one by one, several months in between one another. I guess that is your experience with your friends, otherwise how else would you justify your bad possition which diminishes "Levels" in an mmorpg.
Levels in an MMO are there to teach the player. They are, for all intents and purposes, an extended tutorial.
This is why most games have 90% of the play time at the level cap, it is why most games have empty low level zones, it is why most games have the bulk of the content developed for the level cap.
The level cap is also where the challenging content in the game is to be found, as it is the only place developers can add content to a game, knowing players won't just out-level it.
Fact is, the leveling process and leveling content is only there to get players ready for the bulk of the content where the bulk of players spend the bulk of their time.
You thinking differently doesn't change that fact.
I wouldn't mind several level 'walls', as L2 was alleged to have. Let me explain...
Rather than having each level require experience as a function of the experience of the prior level (new level experience requirement = prior level experience requirement x 1.25, or whatever), have every 5th or 8th or whatever level be 'prior level experience x 3, or x5, or whatever. In other words, slow levelling to max by having unusually difficult levels to attain. If it was every fifth level, then we would see lots more people at levels 19, 24, 29, 34... and so on as folks strive for the big Two-Oh, Two-Five, etc.
I think that this would provide a sense of accomplishment and pride in the achieving of each fifth level, rather than having each level just another digit. It would also slow levelling to max, which a fair number of players seem to prefer.
These 'special' levels might be the ones where we get more points to unlock skills, adding motivation as we climb over the wall.
I agree it should be longer to hit level cap. It would be nice to really enjoy the journey to level cap but also give players more to do via helping others through their areas. It would also deter more alts which I am always for.
I wouldn't mind several level 'walls', as L2 was alleged to have. Let me explain...
Rather than having each level require experience as a function of the experience of the prior level (new level experience requirement = prior level experience requirement x 1.25, or whatever), have every 5th or 8th or whatever level be 'prior level experience x 3, or x5, or whatever. In other words, slow levelling to max by having unusually difficult levels to attain. If it was every fifth level, then we would see lots more people at levels 19, 24, 29, 34... and so on as folks strive for the big Two-Oh, Two-Five, etc.
I think that this would provide a sense of accomplishment and pride in the achieving of each fifth level, rather than having each level just another digit. It would also slow levelling to max, which a fair number of players seem to prefer.
These 'special' levels might be the ones where we get more points to unlock skills, adding motivation as we climb over the wall.
Meh. It's perceived as an accomplishment only by the people who equate "a lot of time spent doing something" with determination or dedication, for the others it's more a relief once it's finally done. I don't know how intentional it was, but in EQ there were a few levels which required more XPs to get through compared to the one before and the one after, something about the experience formula if I remember right (but really not sure). Players called them 'hell levels". So there is that. That designation tells you how much people like them in general.
I think this difference in mindset toward time spent on something is one of the distinction between Asian and western audiences and why games designed for the former are often grindy. I can't remember where I read that, it's been too long... Oh well, take it with a grain of salt, it's not as if in was an absolute anyway.
Another factor why old MMOs demanded long hours to level may also be attributed to the need to keep the players subscribed without pushing new content. Make everything take time, slow the progression so players can't blast through the content too much faster than you can make more of it but keep the dopamine hits close enough to keep the money coming in. Less of an issue if you have player generated content, such as PvP. So it wasn't so much to make it challenging as much as keep players subscribed.
In the end, there is only one wall that matters for many people: the last one, the one you can't get over. For them, the game only really begins once you're there. All the other walls you put in their path are hurdles that slow them down in their race for max level.
Ye, let's turn all games into dota, fps, battle royal, because all of a sudden levels and time spent dont matter in mmos.
As if there isnt mmos that you can be max lv in a week. But guess what? Everyone is bored of them.
Ye, let's turn all games into dota, fps, battle royal, because all of a sudden levels and time spent dont matter in mmos.
As if there isnt mmos that you can be max lv in a week. But guess what? Everyone is bored of them.
lets look at your logic here.
Games with no levels (FPS, MOBA, BR etc) are popular.
Games with fast leveling are less popular.
You have taken this, and decided the best thing to do is to make a game with slow leveling. There is no logic to this stance, just emotion.
The bulk of people do not ENJOY leveling, they tolerate it.
The bulk of people do not ENJOY leveling, they tolerate it.
I'd say what people enjoy is the feeling of progression and levels are a big part on how this progression is regulated early on. Tolerate might be too strong of a word for all cases, but it becomes more accurate the slower the progression is or when you start an alt and must go through it again (especially if what you're looking for is the content available only at the end of leveling). For some, myself included, experiencing leveling in a different context (race, location, class, ...) is enough to make the process interesting, but I can see how boring it can be for those not really into these aspects, after all, I'm bored with gear progression yet I know how much some most people enjoy this side of progression.
Ye, let's turn all games into dota, fps, battle royal, because all of a sudden levels and time spent dont matter in mmos.
As if there isnt mmos that you can be max lv in a week. But guess what? Everyone is bored of them.
Ironically, I believe a few FPS franchises have incorporated a leveling system in their games over the years.
Having short or no level progression in these types of game doesn't seem to stop people from spending huge amount of time playing. In these games, the "leveling" is player side instead of character side. Knowing the map, good spots, knowing the heroes, how to use them, ...
In MMOs the progression comes from both character and player, but either one can stunt the other. I really good player can be limited to what his character can do and be somewhat frustrated because he knows how he could do better if he had 1 more level, or a better weapon. On the other hand, a, let say below average, player can accomplish surprising things simply because his character is overgeared relative to his level. Lucky drop, gift from the guild or friends, or bought at a bargain, doesn't matter how. He may think he's good, but he's carried by his character.
Leveling systems in other genres - like moba, br, fps are used primarily as a longterm reflection of the players time investment with various rewards to have a secondary tracking mechanism beyond the ranked system
However in MMOs the leveling system is more like a rite of passage that is supposed to benchmark you with competency for piloting your character at least at the minimal playable level. In other words, leveling is used as a roleplay tutorial with exams along the journey in order to make sure that the player capable to pilot the character at least on a level of a bot with 30 lines of code
@Schmuky New word problems are not relevant to Ashes. Amazon didn't want tomake a game, they wanted to create revenue. You can see this troughout its development. Towns are copy pasted, instances are copy pasted, and theres a bout 10 different mobs in total, wich all share the same body animations. server structure is non-existent they struggle with 2000 players online,. In game systems of crafting gearing and many others haven't been thought trough. But most importantly They never listened to feedback.
When i look at recent launches of mmo's particular New world there are 2 things that you need to look at for a good launc:
1) is the game launch bad due to something happening
2) is the server stability and accessability good.
New world failed on both ends, its game is bad, riddled wit bugs, and they didn't have enough access or server stability to cope with the playerbase. I played New world for a total of 2 days, before i saw its flaws, its repetitiveness, and lack of intresting content. i am sad that i spend the money on that game.
Ashes on the other hand, if they continue developing as they are now, won't be a bad game, it won't be a game for everyone, but it will not be bad. The only thing that can influence the launch of ashes, is the server accessibility and stability.
Honestly, I miss EQ... Taking months to level. Yes, the hell levels were annoying, but they provided time to let you really know how the character's abilities worked. Running 3+ hours to travel from Kunark to Qeynos to start quests for my monk. Having to let raid groups know to spend the day before moving to the target raid zone so everyone was ready was all part of the experience. Figuring out how to solo as an enchanter so I could better learn how all the abilities worked. Having quests that just say get me x and having to figure out where it comes from and were to get it, instead of leading you by the nose to the exact spot to pickup something 20 feet away.
I hate fast travel that shrinks the world and trivializes so much. Even the trains to zone were part of the fun experience that added to our lexicon! How many of you nostalgically remember the cries of "train right!"? I have far more fond memories of those experiences than I do of beating x boss for the umpteenth time.
I know I'm odd because I enjoy both solo and group play and don't need to rush to end game content. Over coming the little challenges and annoyances were the most memorable times. I would definitely prefer it to take ~400 hours to get to max level. Makes that accomplishment mean more.
This is not to say I want Ashes to be another EQ... I just would like a challenge.
What worked more than a decade ago in a certain context doesn't necessarily work today when the context is different.
It is important to understand why it worked back then in order to create today such circumstances so a similar gameplay experience can be achieved.
The best thoughts for doing this that i can think of is to decrease the importance of levels and shift the progression towards the node system in some personal capacity so when the node is on a max level then the player still has personal progression in there that isn't tied to the leveling system.
Also if the levels do not give direct player power (for example like in wow spell hit chance is calculated on a level difference etc) then it also decreases the importance of levels, because player power is increased through indirect ways like more skill points and access to higher level skills
Also since Intrepid wants to have extensive ui customization and no addons it means that it is entirely their decision if there are quest markers. However you shouldn't bury your head in the sand and think that all those years ago people were not using sites to find quest objectives - that thinking is only possible through rose tinted glasses
I think we are blindly trying to recreate the very first moment of us playing our first mmorpg. Being confused how the game worked, everything being new to us: what is dungeon? what is enchanting? why are some items in different color? running out of quests to do, being too low level for the next quest chain and had to think what to do next, like we are some isekai anime protagonists. Because of this it took more than 2months+ to level the character to max level in the game where it was possible for an average player to reach max level in 1-2 week with 20-30 hours of in game time and usually it becomes less enjoyable to level second, third, fourth... character
We are like drug addicts looking for that magical experience, but because we know how mmorpgs work in general it won't be the same experience, since we have an idea how things should evolve and leveling will quickly bore us to death if it is artificially made too long, especially with ashes of creation since we are bombarded with tons of information about the game 2 years before release.
if it takes around 240 hours of in game time for an average player to reach max level, Interpid should better make the leveling and the game in general A LOT different from the games that we know and conceal as much information as possible.
I agree that the progression should be slowed further and frankly I think it would beneficial to players and Devs to do so. Note that this is predicated on their being sufficient horizontal content during the level progression for players.
1. Slower progression to level cap facilitates players actually exploring more of the world, learning the lore of the world, races, enemies, participating in events, learning the ins and outs of their class, building relationships with their node, guild, etc. Hopefully the exposure to the lore helps builds player interest in the happenings of Verra and its various factions. Furthermore, due to the time requirement, when players reach the level cap, even MMORPG virgins will have a good grasp of the game's, their classes, and genre's mechanics in order to better participate in end-game events, leveling the playing field somewhat for activities that can often be exclusionary to new players who don't yet understand the game mechanics.
2. Helps players build the combat skill necessary for PvP at end-game where horizontal content and end-game activities and loot is likely to drive more player conflict. The more time a player spends honing their class, the better prepared they will be for PvP, which is likely to be far more prevalent at end game when guilds compete for dungeons and end-game loot.
3. Focus on node development and crafting systems. When the focus of max level grind is removed or sufficiently toned down, there is less opportunity cost paid by players who develop craftmanship, trading economics, house decorating, node development and faction building.
3. Gives the developers time to build out a horizontal end-game. End-game is the focus of all MMORPGs in part because of the zealotry of players chasing max level, and there's little chance that won't be the case here. GW2 did a fantastic job building out horizontal end-game content, but it takes significant developer time to build out balanced end-game content to keep players engaged for year's to come. Extending the time it takes players to reach that content gives the developers more time to develop and balance the content. Before someone comments on it - yes, it takes dev time to develop progression content too, I'm aware. However, leveling content does not require the same amount of dev time from a balancing standpoint as end-game content where loot-tables, end-game weapons and armor, skills, build crafting, and PvP balancing, are far more of a focus.
4. Places a higher opportunity cost on alt farmers and the like which tend to negatively influence game mechanics and economy.
Other things worth mentioning.
The above is predicated on an incentive system in the game being present to have higher level players revisit and participate in events in low level zones. There are plenty of such systems implemented in various MMO's already, and done properly it mitigates population level distribution issues.
If there is "end-game" type activities, adventures, players to play with and loot for you to chase while you progress, what difference does the level number on your screen really make? If the level number on the screen determines your engagement level with the game that's a problem that no Dev is going solve.
Players are not equal - some people will play more and level gaps and skill gaps will develop. That is a reality based on what AoC's structure looks like at this point. From a PvP standpoint the corruption system will ideally prevent level gap bullying, so extending level progression shouldn't be an issue in that respect. Skill gaps will likely also develop based on how much players play and depending on the skill ceiling of the combat system this could be significant. Even if the developers implemented some system to keep level gaps small, if the combat skill system is high, the outcome of conflict between those players putting in 500-1,000 hours and those putting in 200, will be no different than if the level gap actually did exist - look at PvP in GW2 for good example of this. As such there seems to be little downside from a PvP perspective to push out level progression.
I agree that the progression should be slowed further and frankly I think it would beneficial to players and Devs to do so. Note that this is predicated on their being sufficient horizontal content during the level progression for players.
1. Slower progression to level cap facilitates players actually exploring more of the world, learning the lore of the world, races, enemies, participating in events, learning the ins and outs of their class, building relationships with their node, guild, etc. Hopefully the exposure to the lore helps builds player interest in the happenings of Verra and its various factions. Furthermore, due to the time requirement, when players reach the level cap, even MMORPG virgins will have a good grasp of the game's, their classes, and genre's mechanics in order to better participate in end-game events, leveling the playing field somewhat for activities that can often be exclusionary to new players who don't yet understand the game mechanics.
2. Helps players build the combat skill necessary for PvP at end-game where horizontal content and end-game activities and loot is likely to drive more player conflict. The more time a player spends honing their class, the better prepared they will be for PvP, which is likely to be far more prevalent at end game when guilds compete for dungeons and end-game loot.
3. Focus on node development and crafting systems. When the focus of max level grind is removed or sufficiently toned down, there is less opportunity cost paid by players who develop craftmanship, trading economics, house decorating, node development and faction building.
3. Gives the developers time to build out a horizontal end-game. End-game is the focus of all MMORPGs in part because of the zealotry of players chasing max level, and there's little chance that won't be the case here. GW2 did a fantastic job building out horizontal end-game content, but it takes significant developer time to build out balanced end-game content to keep players engaged for year's to come. Extending the time it takes players to reach that content gives the developers more time to develop and balance the content. Before someone comments on it - yes, it takes dev time to develop progression content too, I'm aware. However, leveling content does not require the same amount of dev time from a balancing standpoint as end-game content where loot-tables, end-game weapons and armor, skills, build crafting, and PvP balancing, are far more of a focus.
4. Places a higher opportunity cost on alt farmers and the like which tend to negatively influence game mechanics and economy.
Other things worth mentioning.
The above is predicated on an incentive system in the game being present to have higher level players revisit and participate in events in low level zones. There are plenty of such systems implemented in various MMO's already, and done properly it mitigates population level distribution issues.
If there is "end-game" type activities, adventures, players to play with and loot for you to chase while you progress, what difference does the level number on your screen really make? If the level number on the screen determines your engagement level with the game that's a problem that no Dev is going solve.
Players are not equal - some people will play more and level gaps and skill gaps will develop. That is a reality based on what AoC's structure looks like at this point. From a PvP standpoint the corruption system will ideally prevent level gap bullying, so extending level progression shouldn't be an issue in that respect. Skill gaps will likely also develop based on how much players play and depending on the skill ceiling of the combat system this could be significant. Even if the developers implemented some system to keep level gaps small, if the combat skill system is high, the outcome of conflict between those players putting in 500-1,000 hours and those putting in 200, will be no different than if the level gap actually did exist - look at PvP in GW2 for good example of this. As such there seems to be little downside from a PvP perspective to push out level progression.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Making it take longer doesn't mean people won't focus on it. People focus on it because of the power it gives you as you usually need to be max level to play the "endgame". As long as it's a requirement to play, people will grind it out.
Keeping in mind people have limited attention spans, extending time to max level would come at a price. Ideally, each level would feel like an achievement and would introduce depth. And each level gain should occur somewhat frequently to retain that limited attention.
Remember, the plethora of systems Intrepid plans to include will slow the advance of character combat level progression.
Additionally, systems, such as the artisan system will have their own progression levels.
Given that release is far into the future, and that we lack the corresponding experience and information, I can’t see how this topic can be discussed with any seriousness, as interesting and fun as it is
45 hours may feel right for most, or perhaps not. But that will be a subjective experience and will be dependant on several factors such as player engagement of non-combat related systems. Can be discussed more precisely during Alpha-2.
Given that release is far into the future, and that we lack the corresponding experience and information, I can’t see how this topic can be discussed with any seriousness, as interesting and fun as it is
Indeed, advocating for longer or shorter leveling time at this moment is pretty meaningless, because the leveling time should match the leveling content and the pacing of the leveling
I think any change to elongate the leveling experience could benefit some and ruin others experience.. There are some players out there that just live for the end game grind, anything in between is nothing to them. Of course no matter which way they go with it, there will always be people who want more or less.. In New World for instance we have people that just like to gather and craft.. We make a company (guild) event out of it. The gatherers flag for PvP and our other members do as well. It gives the higher level players a break from the repeated grinding and a chance to get some PvP action in.. Brings some excitement to the table. Granted I do know, people won't always have support like that.. but there is always other ways, you just have to get creative.
I also think that if I choose to grind out 500, 1k, 2k, or even 5k hours to hit max level and max gear. That's my choice, that's how I wanted to play. If I chose to not do that and just take it slow.. that's also my choice. I shouldn't be held back (other than in game mechanics).. nor do I believe people with the other playstyles should be held back in that sense. Sure people get burnt out, but 90% of the time after some time off.. They come right back.
Speaking on people with long hour jobs, families, and other time restraints.. That's just the nature of the beast. The entire leveling system shouldn't be changed around them to punish people who have more time. Because then all of the time committed players will just find somewhere else to grind until any exp lock is lifted, OR just find a new game entirely. I think a nice median where end game players can get to their grind, and less committed players can get there at a decent pace is acceptable. If you deem that isn't fair, then maybe MMO's just aren't for you? - Just personal opinions though.
Speaking on people with long hour jobs, families, and other time restraints.. That's just the nature of the beast. The entire leveling system shouldn't be changed around them to punish people who have more time. Because then all of the time committed players will just find somewhere else to grind until any exp lock is lifted, OR just find a new game entirely. I think a nice median where end game players can get to their grind, and less committed players can get there at a decent pace is acceptable. If you deem that isn't fair, then maybe MMO's just aren't for you? - Just personal opinions though.
I mean, if the leveling process is fun, why would the people with little time even mind going through it?
Why would people want to rush through something which is clearly fun?
Concentrating gameplay quality exclusively in the end-game is one of the biggest blunders modern mmo-design had made.
As a general rule the harder it is to lvl up, the better for the game and players, it feels more rewarding and the journey is longer at each stage.
As a general rule leveling is rewarding if it is created as part of the game and not as an afterthought.
If you artificially make leveling take super long time it will boil down to a list of places with level ranges with "Grind for X hours"
If you want to have leveling take 2000 hours - in essence I am not against it, but the game should contain 2000 hours of leveling content, not just purely "grind this mob" for 2k hours
The insane player is going to do whatever is needed to achieve their goal so artificial time gates are a terrible thing. World of Warcraft did that with flying mounts in later expansion making you wait each expansion until a certain point until you could relearn that skill to fly. It was terrible. The justification was that it would slow down leveling so you couldn't fly to quest areas too fast and pick easy quests to power level.
Now, I am fine if ashes of creation desires to limit flying mounts to mayors, certain players of prestige based on professions like the high priest of the church, the head rogue in an assassin guild, etc. Having most people be on ground mounts make you want to covet and appreciate that which is awesome. The point is that whether I have to play 250, 500 hours, or 1000 hours to get my goal, some players who have more time will do it. There is no race for world first, so what is the point of power leveling. Players should be working on their crafting, saving money for housing, working on forming guilds, and deciding which node they want to be a part of as we develop the political and social aspects of the server we play on. If you do all the content in two weeks and then say you are bored with the game, whose fault is that? It's your fault. This isn't Eve Online where we are rushing to build our armies and claim territory. Doing the raids and building our cities is the role playing that we are meant to enjoy. There isn't a need for a level cap. Also, many people have families and may only be able to play the game 10 to 20 hours a week. Having a level cap at launch isn't necessary.
You can't force somebody in a race to stop and smell the roses. Well, you can, but they won't appreciate it. They'll do it because you're forcing them to, check if off their to-do list, and keep going. Also, now they're annoyed at the arbitrary obstacle you gave them. They'll be even more annoyed if the person behind them doesn't have to smell the roses because they started late.
You might think its necessary because not smelling the roses would be a waste, but you said it yourself: nobody would like this. Except maybe the people who would be smelling the roses anyway.
Regardless of how great the roses smell, pissing off a vast majority of your players is not the way to go.
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Anyone racing to reach cap asap will ding regardless of the global xp nerf, because those people will congregate in a single node on the realm to be able to unluck higher level areas more quickly. Those people will most likely complain just a little bit, because they will be too busy grinding out what they need despite the nerf.
Those players will always break ahead of the pack. Whereas everyone else is stuck together in the bottleneck areas for double the time as it would take without the nerf creating frustration. Not only this, but those players will feel like shit, because the time invested during the time the nerf is active makes their time invested worth much less.
Timed XP events are used only if the leveling system by itself is shit and those events only devalue players time invested (with xp nerf the time devalued is during the nerf and with xp buff the time devalued is everything except the period of the buff being active)
However your proposed problem is already being addressed with the design of the node system that automatically slows down the front of the pack without any artificial xp nerf.
― Plato
As opposed to L2, which doesnt have post cap leveling.
Getting to high lvs takes long time and you are recruired to do meaningful activities, instead of facerolling the world and rushing to cap.
Being at high lvs is filled with activities to reach cap lv and max gear while, once again, helping lower lv guildies.
In games with post cap progression it is often a feature to share that prpgression with alts at cap lv from the same acc. Guess what? People rush one alt after another instead of actually playing the game.
Rushed lc cap and post cap xp is bad.
Leveling IS filler content.
The point of an MMO is to play together with friends. This happens far more easily when they are all the same level.
The best way for all your friends to be the same lev is for them to be at the level cap.
Saying level cap content is just filler is saying you don't have any friends to run it with.
My friends and I start at the same time, from noobs to max lv. And the longer it takes in a game to reach max lv and gain top gear, the better the game and the content doesnt feel ez within 2 months.
Go play eso if you want everybody to be the same lv. They will even tailor the content to your lv.
Levels in an MMO are there to teach the player. They are, for all intents and purposes, an extended tutorial.
This is why most games have 90% of the play time at the level cap, it is why most games have empty low level zones, it is why most games have the bulk of the content developed for the level cap.
The level cap is also where the challenging content in the game is to be found, as it is the only place developers can add content to a game, knowing players won't just out-level it.
Fact is, the leveling process and leveling content is only there to get players ready for the bulk of the content where the bulk of players spend the bulk of their time.
You thinking differently doesn't change that fact.
Rather than having each level require experience as a function of the experience of the prior level (new level experience requirement = prior level experience requirement x 1.25, or whatever), have every 5th or 8th or whatever level be 'prior level experience x 3, or x5, or whatever. In other words, slow levelling to max by having unusually difficult levels to attain. If it was every fifth level, then we would see lots more people at levels 19, 24, 29, 34... and so on as folks strive for the big Two-Oh, Two-Five, etc.
I think that this would provide a sense of accomplishment and pride in the achieving of each fifth level, rather than having each level just another digit. It would also slow levelling to max, which a fair number of players seem to prefer.
These 'special' levels might be the ones where we get more points to unlock skills, adding motivation as we climb over the wall.
Meh. It's perceived as an accomplishment only by the people who equate "a lot of time spent doing something" with determination or dedication, for the others it's more a relief once it's finally done. I don't know how intentional it was, but in EQ there were a few levels which required more XPs to get through compared to the one before and the one after, something about the experience formula if I remember right (but really not sure). Players called them 'hell levels". So there is that. That designation tells you how much people like them in general.
I think this difference in mindset toward time spent on something is one of the distinction between Asian and western audiences and why games designed for the former are often grindy. I can't remember where I read that, it's been too long... Oh well, take it with a grain of salt, it's not as if in was an absolute anyway.
Another factor why old MMOs demanded long hours to level may also be attributed to the need to keep the players subscribed without pushing new content. Make everything take time, slow the progression so players can't blast through the content too much faster than you can make more of it but keep the dopamine hits close enough to keep the money coming in. Less of an issue if you have player generated content, such as PvP. So it wasn't so much to make it challenging as much as keep players subscribed.
In the end, there is only one wall that matters for many people: the last one, the one you can't get over. For them, the game only really begins once you're there. All the other walls you put in their path are hurdles that slow them down in their race for max level.
As if there isnt mmos that you can be max lv in a week. But guess what? Everyone is bored of them.
lets look at your logic here.
Games with no levels (FPS, MOBA, BR etc) are popular.
Games with fast leveling are less popular.
You have taken this, and decided the best thing to do is to make a game with slow leveling. There is no logic to this stance, just emotion.
The bulk of people do not ENJOY leveling, they tolerate it.
I'd say what people enjoy is the feeling of progression and levels are a big part on how this progression is regulated early on. Tolerate might be too strong of a word for all cases, but it becomes more accurate the slower the progression is or when you start an alt and must go through it again (especially if what you're looking for is the content available only at the end of leveling). For some, myself included, experiencing leveling in a different context (race, location, class, ...) is enough to make the process interesting, but I can see how boring it can be for those not really into these aspects, after all, I'm bored with gear progression yet I know how much some most people enjoy this side of progression.
Ironically, I believe a few FPS franchises have incorporated a leveling system in their games over the years.
Having short or no level progression in these types of game doesn't seem to stop people from spending huge amount of time playing. In these games, the "leveling" is player side instead of character side. Knowing the map, good spots, knowing the heroes, how to use them, ...
In MMOs the progression comes from both character and player, but either one can stunt the other. I really good player can be limited to what his character can do and be somewhat frustrated because he knows how he could do better if he had 1 more level, or a better weapon. On the other hand, a, let say below average, player can accomplish surprising things simply because his character is overgeared relative to his level. Lucky drop, gift from the guild or friends, or bought at a bargain, doesn't matter how. He may think he's good, but he's carried by his character.
However in MMOs the leveling system is more like a rite of passage that is supposed to benchmark you with competency for piloting your character at least at the minimal playable level. In other words, leveling is used as a roleplay tutorial with exams along the journey in order to make sure that the player capable to pilot the character at least on a level of a bot with 30 lines of code
― Plato
When i look at recent launches of mmo's particular New world there are 2 things that you need to look at for a good launc:
1) is the game launch bad due to something happening
2) is the server stability and accessability good.
New world failed on both ends, its game is bad, riddled wit bugs, and they didn't have enough access or server stability to cope with the playerbase. I played New world for a total of 2 days, before i saw its flaws, its repetitiveness, and lack of intresting content. i am sad that i spend the money on that game.
Ashes on the other hand, if they continue developing as they are now, won't be a bad game, it won't be a game for everyone, but it will not be bad. The only thing that can influence the launch of ashes, is the server accessibility and stability.
I hate fast travel that shrinks the world and trivializes so much. Even the trains to zone were part of the fun experience that added to our lexicon! How many of you nostalgically remember the cries of "train right!"? I have far more fond memories of those experiences than I do of beating x boss for the umpteenth time.
I know I'm odd because I enjoy both solo and group play and don't need to rush to end game content. Over coming the little challenges and annoyances were the most memorable times. I would definitely prefer it to take ~400 hours to get to max level. Makes that accomplishment mean more.
This is not to say I want Ashes to be another EQ... I just would like a challenge.
It is important to understand why it worked back then in order to create today such circumstances so a similar gameplay experience can be achieved.
The best thoughts for doing this that i can think of is to decrease the importance of levels and shift the progression towards the node system in some personal capacity so when the node is on a max level then the player still has personal progression in there that isn't tied to the leveling system.
Also if the levels do not give direct player power (for example like in wow spell hit chance is calculated on a level difference etc) then it also decreases the importance of levels, because player power is increased through indirect ways like more skill points and access to higher level skills
Also since Intrepid wants to have extensive ui customization and no addons it means that it is entirely their decision if there are quest markers. However you shouldn't bury your head in the sand and think that all those years ago people were not using sites to find quest objectives - that thinking is only possible through rose tinted glasses
― Plato
We are like drug addicts looking for that magical experience, but because we know how mmorpgs work in general it won't be the same experience, since we have an idea how things should evolve and leveling will quickly bore us to death if it is artificially made too long, especially with ashes of creation since we are bombarded with tons of information about the game 2 years before release.
if it takes around 240 hours of in game time for an average player to reach max level, Interpid should better make the leveling and the game in general A LOT different from the games that we know and conceal as much information as possible.
1. Slower progression to level cap facilitates players actually exploring more of the world, learning the lore of the world, races, enemies, participating in events, learning the ins and outs of their class, building relationships with their node, guild, etc. Hopefully the exposure to the lore helps builds player interest in the happenings of Verra and its various factions. Furthermore, due to the time requirement, when players reach the level cap, even MMORPG virgins will have a good grasp of the game's, their classes, and genre's mechanics in order to better participate in end-game events, leveling the playing field somewhat for activities that can often be exclusionary to new players who don't yet understand the game mechanics.
2. Helps players build the combat skill necessary for PvP at end-game where horizontal content and end-game activities and loot is likely to drive more player conflict. The more time a player spends honing their class, the better prepared they will be for PvP, which is likely to be far more prevalent at end game when guilds compete for dungeons and end-game loot.
3. Focus on node development and crafting systems. When the focus of max level grind is removed or sufficiently toned down, there is less opportunity cost paid by players who develop craftmanship, trading economics, house decorating, node development and faction building.
3. Gives the developers time to build out a horizontal end-game. End-game is the focus of all MMORPGs in part because of the zealotry of players chasing max level, and there's little chance that won't be the case here. GW2 did a fantastic job building out horizontal end-game content, but it takes significant developer time to build out balanced end-game content to keep players engaged for year's to come. Extending the time it takes players to reach that content gives the developers more time to develop and balance the content. Before someone comments on it - yes, it takes dev time to develop progression content too, I'm aware. However, leveling content does not require the same amount of dev time from a balancing standpoint as end-game content where loot-tables, end-game weapons and armor, skills, build crafting, and PvP balancing, are far more of a focus.
4. Places a higher opportunity cost on alt farmers and the like which tend to negatively influence game mechanics and economy.
Other things worth mentioning.
The above is predicated on an incentive system in the game being present to have higher level players revisit and participate in events in low level zones. There are plenty of such systems implemented in various MMO's already, and done properly it mitigates population level distribution issues.
If there is "end-game" type activities, adventures, players to play with and loot for you to chase while you progress, what difference does the level number on your screen really make? If the level number on the screen determines your engagement level with the game that's a problem that no Dev is going solve.
Players are not equal - some people will play more and level gaps and skill gaps will develop. That is a reality based on what AoC's structure looks like at this point. From a PvP standpoint the corruption system will ideally prevent level gap bullying, so extending level progression shouldn't be an issue in that respect. Skill gaps will likely also develop based on how much players play and depending on the skill ceiling of the combat system this could be significant. Even if the developers implemented some system to keep level gaps small, if the combat skill system is high, the outcome of conflict between those players putting in 500-1,000 hours and those putting in 200, will be no different than if the level gap actually did exist - look at PvP in GW2 for good example of this. As such there seems to be little downside from a PvP perspective to push out level progression.
Good stuff
Remember, the plethora of systems Intrepid plans to include will slow the advance of character combat level progression.
Additionally, systems, such as the artisan system will have their own progression levels.
Given that release is far into the future, and that we lack the corresponding experience and information, I can’t see how this topic can be discussed with any seriousness, as interesting and fun as it is
45 hours may feel right for most, or perhaps not. But that will be a subjective experience and will be dependant on several factors such as player engagement of non-combat related systems. Can be discussed more precisely during Alpha-2.
― Plato
I also think that if I choose to grind out 500, 1k, 2k, or even 5k hours to hit max level and max gear. That's my choice, that's how I wanted to play. If I chose to not do that and just take it slow.. that's also my choice. I shouldn't be held back (other than in game mechanics).. nor do I believe people with the other playstyles should be held back in that sense. Sure people get burnt out, but 90% of the time after some time off.. They come right back.
Speaking on people with long hour jobs, families, and other time restraints.. That's just the nature of the beast. The entire leveling system shouldn't be changed around them to punish people who have more time. Because then all of the time committed players will just find somewhere else to grind until any exp lock is lifted, OR just find a new game entirely. I think a nice median where end game players can get to their grind, and less committed players can get there at a decent pace is acceptable. If you deem that isn't fair, then maybe MMO's just aren't for you? - Just personal opinions though.
I mean, if the leveling process is fun, why would the people with little time even mind going through it?
Why would people want to rush through something which is clearly fun?
Concentrating gameplay quality exclusively in the end-game is one of the biggest blunders modern mmo-design had made.
As a general rule leveling is rewarding if it is created as part of the game and not as an afterthought.
If you artificially make leveling take super long time it will boil down to a list of places with level ranges with "Grind for X hours"
If you want to have leveling take 2000 hours - in essence I am not against it, but the game should contain 2000 hours of leveling content, not just purely "grind this mob" for 2k hours
― Plato
Now, I am fine if ashes of creation desires to limit flying mounts to mayors, certain players of prestige based on professions like the high priest of the church, the head rogue in an assassin guild, etc. Having most people be on ground mounts make you want to covet and appreciate that which is awesome. The point is that whether I have to play 250, 500 hours, or 1000 hours to get my goal, some players who have more time will do it. There is no race for world first, so what is the point of power leveling. Players should be working on their crafting, saving money for housing, working on forming guilds, and deciding which node they want to be a part of as we develop the political and social aspects of the server we play on. If you do all the content in two weeks and then say you are bored with the game, whose fault is that? It's your fault. This isn't Eve Online where we are rushing to build our armies and claim territory. Doing the raids and building our cities is the role playing that we are meant to enjoy. There isn't a need for a level cap. Also, many people have families and may only be able to play the game 10 to 20 hours a week. Having a level cap at launch isn't necessary.
You might think its necessary because not smelling the roses would be a waste, but you said it yourself: nobody would like this. Except maybe the people who would be smelling the roses anyway.
Regardless of how great the roses smell, pissing off a vast majority of your players is not the way to go.